American Cops Doing What They Do Best

[adexkola]

I surely do, just as a basic test of intelligence. If you think "your people" are being "systematically exploited" our country has many outlets to deal with the situation. Outlets that are peaceful and constructive that involve the law, policy makers, communication, and bringing people togteher.

Even if you think you are being treated unfairly, why would you act in a provocative way to be exploited even more? Why not follow the laws of the land and show respect to the police? When you are being arrested is not the right time to protest the police. That is a selfish and idiotic time to protest and a good way to get hurt. And that is at the heart of the protests and violence - a selfish justification for anti-social behavior that has no place in our communities.

Change can happen. Go to a city council meeting. Speak to your representatives. Vote. Start a website. Open a dialog with people in authority. Work with religious and spiritual leaders to discuss the topic. That is how mature and productive citizens deal with inequity. Not with riots and shooting cops.

Did you ignore the protests across America last year after multiple shootings? Your quoting of systematically exploited makes me believe that you don't believe minorities are targeted disproportionately. If that is the case then I don't know what else to show you.

That guy grabbed for one of their guns. At that point, there wasn't much choice. What if he had harmed a bystander or grabbed the gun and shot a child with a stray bullet? What then?

You can't put yourself in their shoes and second guess every decision like this. They are in very real danger at all times.

If he had just gone limp and flat on the ground and put his hands out, he would be alive today.

I don't know why you're quoting random scenarios at me. If you grab a police officer's gun and a struggle ensues, I'm not going to be complaining much. Darwin's law and all that.

Yes you absofeckinglutely can. The armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan under more codified laws of combat and engagement, and more tense situations. It's really simple, if they aren't smart and proficient enough to think critically in such situations, they shouldn't be cops. Period.

If he had just gone limp and flat on the ground and put his hands out, he would be alive today?

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/pa-officer-charged-fatal-shooting-unarmed-motorist-29872076

 

[Eboue]

You can't put yourself in their shoes and second guess every decision like this. They are in very real danger at all times.

This is often over stated. Police officer is not one of the 10 most dangerous jobs and these past few years have been safer than any in at least 50 years.

 

[bpet15]

It´s also driven by history, facts, video tapes, personal testimony, and an embarrassing federal investigation for the Ferguson judicial system.

As for the multiple races of police, the police is 94% white, and the population is 76% black. And then you can start delving into the outrageous percentages of tickets and citations to blacks, and how it was obvious that they were being shaken down to fund the Ferguson´s police and judicial system.

When is enough enough, and you start to lose respect for the police and stop bowing down and being so subservient and respecting their abusive authority?

This is such a tired argument and one that really holds no water. By your logic the police force should be made up of 76% black police officers...why isn't it? And of course there will be a higher percentage of citations given to blacks...considering they make up a higher percentage of the population.

If you ever wonder why police officers (of any race) are wound a bit more tightly in these high crime areas (most all of which are areas where blacks and Hispanics are the majority) you can chew on these stats.


2008 (Jan-June) New York City Crime Statistics by Race (from Yahoo News)

-83% of all gun assailants were black, while making up 24% of the population
-Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98% of all gun assailants
-49 of every 50 muggings and murders were carried out by blacks or Hispanics
-Blacks and Hispanics commit 96% of the crimes in New York, but include only 85% of those stopped during ‘stop and frisk’ incidents.

I am proud to live within a major metropolitan city and I choose to raise my children in a very broad societal demographic - but I would never group all blacks and Hispanics into the groups above like you have done with white police officers.

 

[Skizzo]

This is often over stated. Police officer is not one of the 10 most dangerous jobs and these past few years have been safer than any in at least 50 years.

Hmm.

http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Career_Trends/a/Dangers-In-Criminal-Justice-Careers.htm

 

[fishfingers15]

So the thought process is... I'm being pulled over because I am (insert race here), not because I stole some cigarettes, so I'm going to punch this asshole (insert race here) racist cop in the face and grab his gun because he would never treat me fairly anyway. I'll probably die but that's better than getting arrested and getting a lawyer.

I don't know what to tell you, but being pulled over because a person is black happens and it happens daily. Unless you think all black people are stealing cigarattes. You have a painfully naive view of the society and how it works.

 

[Eboue]

Hmm.

http://criminologycareers.about.com/od/Career_Trends/a/Dangers-In-Criminal-Justice-Careers.htm

So, one list has them in 10th and another not in the top 10. They are at like 12% as dangerous as fishing. I think my point holds.

 

[Americano]

No, actually he was killed by a bullet from a police officer's gun, something that happens far too often. While obviously riots and shootings are unacceptable, your suggestion of writing congressmen is equally absurd. I don't know how you expect people whose entire communities have been systematically persecuted to just trust the system.

You are blurring together two distinct situations. In one, a young criminal provoked his own death by endangering the life of an armed police officer who was found to be acting within the confines of his job and the law. In the other, we have a corrupt police department abusing their power. The young criminal acted violently because he had committed a crime, not for some higher purpose of protest... his actions were unjustified and driven by selfish/criminal/drug motives.

Do you consider Martin Luther King to be absurd?

 

[Skizzo]

So, one list has them in 10th and another not in the top 10. They are at like 12% as dangerous as fishing. I think my point holds.

Good to know you looked at the lists rather than interpreting how the lists are made. Although with all those loons out there planning on looking for fisherman to murder in cold blood...

 

[adexkola]

You are blurring together two distinct situations. In one, a young criminal provoked his own death by endangering the life of an armed police officer who was found to be acting within the confines of his job and the law. In the other, we have a corrupt police department abusing their power. The young criminal acted violently because he had committed a crime, not for some higher purpose of protest... his actions were unjustified and driven by selfish/criminal/drug motives.

Do you consider Martin Luther King to be absurd?

No. He got a bullet in the head for his efforts. Do you consider Malcolm X to be absurd? And what's your point?

 

[Americano]

I don't know what to tell you, but being pulled over because a person is black happens and it happens daily. Unless you think all black people are stealing cigarattes. You have a painfully naive view of the society and how it works.

Let's say that happens. And you get pulled over because you are (insert race here). What is the best way to deal with it? What is the smartest way to preserve your own life and safety?

Is it better to be peaceful, follow the instructions, and act within the confines of the law? Or is it better to grab for the police officer's gun and start a fight with them?

 

[Eboue]

You are blurring together two distinct situations. In one, a young criminal provoked his own death by endangering the life of an armed police officer who was found to be acting within the confines of his job and the law. In the other, we have a corrupt police department abusing their power. The young criminal acted violently because he had committed a crime, not for some higher purpose of protest... his actions were unjustified and driven by selfish/criminal/drug motives.

Do you consider Martin Luther King to be absurd?

I don't want to get bogged down in the specifics of one case when there is a systematic issue.

I do consider your question to be absurd.

 

[Eboue]

Good to know you looked at the lists rather than interpreting how the lists are made. Although with all those loons out there planning on looking for fisherman to murder in cold blood...

I'm not sure what you mean on the first point. I recalled a fact from months ago, did a quick google on my phone to confirm I wasn't misremembering and posted.

 

[Zed 101]

There seems to have been a spate of incidents within the last 12-18 months I have to ask is this an escalation or just the media choosing to focus their attention in this area.

The incident in the OP and the 57yo Indian guy do little to enhance the police image in the US, the second in particular although not fatal was worse, he was basically assaulted for not understanding English in a suburb where being not white made him suspicious, the 1st obviously unfathomable but then why put yourself in that position.

However there are other incidents, the kid waving a fake (but not clearly so) gun around a playground, the stoned giant who brutally robbed a store owner for cigarettes then fought with a police officer, etc.... put yourself in a position to get shot and give the police an impossible choice chances are you are ending up in the morgue, and to be honest meh!

There is an Australian film called the magician about a drug dealer, the interviewer asks the main character if he doesn't feel guilty dealing drugs to people, ruining their lives, he replies that if you're stupid enough to take drugs then you are no loss to the gene pool.... harsh but if you are too stupid to avoid provoking an armed man, and for no good reason then chances are you aren't in the running for the next nobel prize either.

There was an incident not that many years ago in Wellington, Shropshire (where I live, or nearby) where a guy with mental health issues used a fake gun to intimidate people, he was cornered by the police but wouldn't drop the weapon, he was shot, this resulted in inquests and rumblings for years... IMO it is a no brainer, wave a gun/weapon at the police and you will probably die and deservedly so, there is no good reason or excuse to put yourself in that position.

We need incidents like the 1st 2 mentioned to see the police brought to account for excessive force, manslaughter etc... however we also need to see people who bemoan the so called victims of incidents where they have clearly brought the consequences on themselves sent packing, the police need to be clear on what is acceptable, but also the public need to have an expectation of what is likely to happen if they give the police no other option... and if they do then to live with what happens.

 

[fishfingers15]

Let's say that happens. And you get pulled over because you are (insert race here). What is the best way to deal with it? What is the smartest way to preserve your own life and safety?

Is it better to be peaceful, follow the instructions, and act within the confines of the law? Or is it better to grab for the police officer's gun and start a fight with them?

Let's not assume it happens, it happens. It happens daily and not every guy who gets pulled over 'randomly' start a fight. What's your point here?

 

[Americano]

Let's not assume it happens, it happens. It happens daily and not every guy who gets pulled over 'randomly' start a fight. What's your point here?

Then answer the question, which is the better option?

 

[fishfingers15]

Then answer the question, which is the better option?

Say you are black guy, who got randomly pulled over and hit with a ridiculous charge the first time. When the office pulls you over the second time, what will be your reaction? Polite humility or general apathy?

Do you recognize that there is a problem which extends beyond police brutality here? Or you are just going to assume 'peaceful gentle demeanor towards cops' will fix everything?

 

[Americano]

Say you are black guy, who got randomly pulled over and hit with a ridiculous charge the first time. When the office pulls you over the second time, what will be your reaction? Polite humility or general apathy?

Do you recognize that there is a problem which extends beyond police brutality here? Or you are just going to assume 'peaceful gentle demeanor towards cops' will fix everything?

So you say the citizens should act belligerent, violent, and non-compliant?

'peaceful gentle demeanor towards cops' will prevent most if not all of the unfortunate loss of life we are discussing.

 

[Skizzo]

I'm not sure what you mean on the first point. I recalled a fact from months ago, did a quick google on my phone to confirm I wasn't misremembering and posted.

A look at the data, though, is certainly worth a discussion. The truth of the matter is, no matter where the occupation ranks on the census, law enforcement careers remain dangerous. In fact, following a historic low of line-of-duty deaths in 2009, on-the-job fatalities for law enforcement officers are again on the upswing.



The Census of Fatal Occupational Injuries is a great source of information, but like all statistics, it's the interpretation of the data that matters. The census produces a "fatality rate," detailing the number of individuals fatally injured per 100,000 workers. It also provides a raw number of fatal on-the-job injuries.

In the case of fishers and related fishing workers, for example, the fatality rate for 2010 was 116 deaths per 100,000 workers. The actual number of deaths in the industry, though, was 29. The same can be said of flight crews, who saw a fatality rate of 70, while the total number of fatalities for the industry was 78. Compare that to the 133 deaths of law enforcement officers in 2010 or the 177 in 2011.

In these occupations, the smaller number of workers greatly affects the fatality rate; one or two accidents can easily send the rate skyrocketing, while the actual raw numbers may be significantly lower.

When ordered by raw numbers, the list looks very different. Numbers, however, still don't tell the whole story. The simple fact is that there is one glaring difference between law enforcement officers and every other occupation on the list. Of all the jobs listed, only police officer deaths include a significant number of murders. That is to say that no one is trying to kill fishers or loggers or refuse collectors.

I didn't include either list...ranked 10th or 3rd...But the information that I was trying to portray. At the end of the day, I don't need a list to tell me what I do is "safe" or not. Any look on social media with posts about pigs gonna get their wings...and people talking about arming up...watching Countless videos of officers being gunned down on "routine" traffic stops...and having spoken face to face with officer youngstrom's partner who was working with him when he was shot through the throat when making a traffic stop on a wreckless driver...means any list you decide to provide won't accurately represent how officers feel when stepping out on shift.

 

[Americano]

I don't want to get bogged down in the specifics of one case when there is a systematic issue.

I do consider your question to be absurd.

That kid is not dead because the local police are corrupt.

 

[Americano]

A very balanced view that I agree with. Well stated.

There seems to have been a spate of incidents within the last 12-18 months I have to ask is this an escalation or just the media choosing to focus their attention in this area.

The incident in the OP and the 57yo Indian guy do little to enhance the police image in the US, the second in particular although not fatal was worse, he was basically assaulted for not understanding English in a suburb where being not white made him suspicious, the 1st obviously unfathomable but then why put yourself in that position.

However there are other incidents, the kid waving a fake (but not clearly so) gun around a playground, the stoned giant who brutally robbed a store owner for cigarettes then fought with a police officer, etc.... put yourself in a position to get shot and give the police an impossible choice chances are you are ending up in the morgue, and to be honest meh!

There is an Australian film called the magician about a drug dealer, the interviewer asks the main character if he doesn't feel guilty dealing drugs to people, ruining their lives, he replies that if you're stupid enough to take drugs then you are no loss to the gene pool.... harsh but if you are too stupid to avoid provoking an armed man, and for no good reason then chances are you aren't in the running for the next nobel prize either.

There was an incident not that many years ago in Wellington, Shropshire (where I live, or nearby) where a guy with mental health issues used a fake gun to intimidate people, he was cornered by the police but wouldn't drop the weapon, he was shot, this resulted in inquests and rumblings for years... IMO it is a no brainer, wave a gun/weapon at the police and you will probably die and deservedly so, there is no good reason or excuse to put yourself in that position.

We need incidents like the 1st 2 mentioned to see the police brought to account for excessive force, manslaughter etc... however we also need to see people who bemoan the so called victims of incidents where they have clearly brought the consequences on themselves sent packing, the police need to be clear on what is acceptable, but also the public need to have an expectation of what is likely to happen if they give the police no other option... and if they do then to live with what happens.

 

[fishfingers15]

So you say the citizens should act belligerent, violent, and non-compliant?

'peaceful gentle demeanor towards cops' will prevent most if not all of the unfortunate loss of life we are discussing.

If you don't mind me asking, what is your social background?

 

[fishfingers15]

If you don't mind me asking, what is your social background?

You know what, never mind. It's honestly not worth i t.

 

[adexkola]

We need incidents like the 1st 2 mentioned to see the police brought to account for excessive force, manslaughter etc... however we also need to see people who bemoan the so called victims of incidents where they have clearly brought the consequences on themselves sent packing, the police need to be clear on what is acceptable, but also the public need to have an expectation of what is likely to happen if they give the police no other option... and if they do then to live with what happens.

Wrong. Anything other than a direct and imminent attempt to take someone else's life should NOT be met with deadly force, and the public have every right to protest, regardless of the person's actions prior to any police casualty.

 

[Eboue]

I didn't include either list...ranked 10th or 3rd...But the information that I was trying to portray. At the end of the day, I don't need a list to tell me what I do is "safe" or not. Any look on social media with posts about pigs gonna get their wings...and people talking about arming up...watching Countless videos of officers being gunned down on "routine" traffic stops...and having spoken face to face with officer youngstrom's partner who was working with him when he was shot through the throat when making a traffic stop on a wreckless driver...means any list you decide to provide won't accurately represent how officers feel when stepping out on shift.

Anecdotes and bad experiences are plenty on both sides. That isn't a very convincing argument.

The fact that police seem to fear for their safety disproportionately to the actual risks is hugely important because as a society we defer to them and allow them special dispensation based on the supposed risks.

Your focus on how officers feel, even when stats might not back that up is a problem. American cities are not a war zone. Officers treating them like they are leads to increased militarization and an an ever increasing gap between minorities and police forces, when community engagement and transparency in police operations would go along way to making both sides safer.

 

[fishfingers15]

Wrong. Anything other than a direct and imminent attempt to take someone else's life should NOT be met with deadly force, and the public have every right to protest, regardless of the person's actions prior to any police casualty.

For feck's sake, this.

 

[fishfingers15]

Anecdotes and bad experiences are plenty on both sides. That isn't a very convincing argument.

The fact that police seem to fear for their safety disproportionately to the actual risks is hugely important because as a society we defer to them and allow them special dispensation based on the supposed risks.

Your focus on how officers feel, even when stats might not back that up is a problem. American cities are not a war zone. Officers treating them like they are leads to increased militarization and an an ever increasing gap between minorities and police forces, when community engagement and transparency in police operations would go along way to making both sides safer.

And this too. Eboue having a stormer

 

[Eboue]

That kid is not dead because the local police are corrupt.

I already said I'm not getting bogged down in the case of the month.

 

[Skizzo]

Anecdotes and bad experiences are plenty on both sides. That isn't a very convincing argument.

The fact that police seem to fear for their safety disproportionately to the actual risks is hugely important because as a society we defer to them and allow them special dispensation based on the supposed risks.

Your focus on how officers feel, even when stats might not back that up is a problem. American cities are not a war zone. Officers treating them like they are leads to increased militarization and an an ever increasing gap between minorities and police forces, when community engagement and transparency in police operations would go along way to making both sides safer.

I'm yet to see a convincing argument from you either. You pulled out a comment on lists and safety, but when posed with lists and safety stating the opposite...suddenly it's disproportionate and doesn't matter.

Why do bad experiences and anecdotes fuel your whole stance, but mine are merely a small inconvenience and have no weight.

I've agreed with officers being held accountable, and I'm in favor of cameras and other means being Introduced. Officers are humans...emotions will always be a factor, so of course that's relevant. Just like all these videos appeal to your emotions, which the media feeds on.

I'd show you videos of cops being executed on the side of the road and show you why those fears are very real, but they deserve better than to be dragged into a discussion that will clearly end with "so what?"

 

[Skizzo]

And this too. Eboue having a stormer

 

[Nobby style]

This is such a tired argument and one that really holds no water. By your logic the police force should be made up of 76% black police officers...why isn't it? And of course there will be a higher percentage of citations given to blacks...considering they make up a higher percentage of the population.

If you ever wonder why police officers (of any race) are wound a bit more tightly in these high crime areas (most all of which are areas where blacks and Hispanics are the majority) you can chew on these stats.


2008 (Jan-June) New York City Crime Statistics by Race (from Yahoo News)

-83% of all gun assailants were black, while making up 24% of the population
-Blacks and Hispanics together accounted for 98% of all gun assailants
-49 of every 50 muggings and murders were carried out by blacks or Hispanics
-Blacks and Hispanics commit 96% of the crimes in New York, but include only 85% of those stopped during ‘stop and frisk’ incidents.

I am proud to live within a major metropolitan city and I choose to raise my children in a very broad societal demographic - but I would never group all blacks and Hispanics into the groups above like you have done with white police officers.

Read the conversation before going on your rants about tired arguements. This Americano guy was going off on the multiracial aspect of the police of Ferguson and it just was´t true and I pointed it out.

 

[Eboue]

I'm yet to see a convincing argument from you either. You pulled out a comment on lists and safety, but when posed with lists and safety stating the opposite...suddenly it's disproportionate and doesn't matter.

Why do bad experiences and anecdotes fuel your whole stance, but mine are merely a small inconvenience and have no weight.

I've agreed with officers being held accountable, and I'm in favor of cameras and other means being Introduced. Officers are humans...emotions will always be a factor, so of course that's relevant. Just like all these videos appeal to your emotions, which the media feeds on.

I'd show you videos of cops being executed on the side of the road and show you why those fears are very real, but they deserve better than to be dragged into a discussion that will clearly end with "so what?"

Your list didn't show the opposite. It showed cops at 10th, which hardly indicates a massive wrong since I said not in the top 10.

Anecdotes don't fuel my whole stance. In fact, my experience with police has been universally positive. But the statistics show minority communities are disproportionately targeted and arrested. That's not something I'm willing to ignore because I've had good experiences with police or because some police have been victims of violence. Moreover, I hold police to a higher standard than your average black teenager from Detroit or Oakland or Ferguson. Society does too.

I know you have been in favor of more transparency and I think that's great. I like you personally and I have no reason to believe that you are part of the problem. But there is a problem and it is systemic and the deference american society shows to police and military makes it so difficult to criticize practices because it is so often met with words about heroes or patriotism or anecdotes.

You may notice my refusal to engage with Americano about the brown case because I'm no interested in anecdotes. I'm interested in statistics, statistics that explain why minority communities often rally around such causes, even when not all of the details are in their favor.

Just because brown is more Claudette Colvin than Rosa Parks doesn't lessen the overall point.

 

[fishfingers15]

He is, our Eboue.

 

[bpet15]

Read the conversation before going on your rants about tired arguements. This Americano guy was going off on the multiracial aspect of the police of Ferguson and it just was´t true and I pointed it out.

My apologies. I assumed you would have stopped at "police force in Ferguson is 94% white" if all you were trying to point out was that the department is not multiracial.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Dent opened his door and was dragged out of his Cadillac; almost immediately, Melendez put him in a chokehold. Melendez then proceeded to deliver 16 blows to Dent’s temple. This all took place in about 15 seconds. Another officer arrived moments later and proceeded to use a taser stun gun against Dent, three times. In the video, Dent, with blood dripping from his forehead and cheek, appears not to be resisting Melendez’s efforts to arrest him.

In the police report, Melendez contended that as he had approached Dent’s open car door, the 37-year veteran Ford employee, who had no criminal history, looked at him “with a blank stare as if on a form of narcotic” and plainly stated: “I’ll kill you.”

Dent says Melendez choked him so tightly he couldn’t breathe.

“At one point, I just gave up,” he said in an interview on Sunday at his attorney’s office. “I thought that was it for me.”

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/mar/30/floyd-dent-police-inkster-michigan-beating

Rodney King-style beating. I'd never even heard of this story until I saw it on reddit. Crooked cop with an extensive history of lawsuits, complaints, and dishonorable behavior somehow gets to keep his badge and continue terrorizing citizens for decades.

 

[Eboue]

Inkster is a real shit hole.

 

[Skizzo]

Your list didn't show the opposite. It showed cops at 10th, which hardly indicates a massive wrong since I said not in the top 10.

Anecdotes don't fuel my whole stance. In fact, my experience with police has been universally positive. But the statistics show minority communities are disproportionately targeted and arrested. That's not something I'm willing to ignore because I've had good experiences with police or because some police have been victims of violence. Moreover, I hold police to a higher standard than your average black teenager from Detroit or Oakland or Ferguson. Society does too.

I know you have been in favor of more transparency and I think that's great. I like you personally and I have no reason to believe that you are part of the problem. But there is a problem and it is systemic and the deference american society shows to police and military makes it so difficult to criticize practices because it is so often met with words about heroes or patriotism or anecdotes.

You may notice my refusal to engage with Americano about the brown case because I'm no interested in anecdotes. I'm interested in statistics, statistics that explain why minority communities often rally around such causes, even when not all of the details are in their favor.

Just because brown is more Claudette Colvin than Rosa Parks doesn't lessen the overall point.

I know you have no issues with me (or I assumed so at least ) and I hope you know that I don't mean to make it sound like I'm attacking you, or making it personal. You've always managed to make your points in an articulate fashion, and been able to actually converse on the matter, unlike others who just slam their head repeatedly into the keyboard to make their "point"

The issue I have, and this is in general, rather than what you've said specifically...is that stats dont show the whole picture, or sometimes the honest picture. Stats can be skewed in any direction when trying to make whatever point you'd like to make.

I'm interested in why those people decide to rally around a case such as Brown's, without knowing the facts of the case, just because it was a black male and a white cop. That cop ended up having to change his entire life, after having been found to have done nothing wrong...just because of the skin colour of the involved parties. Yes, officers have helped that happen, as have the rioting minority crowds who decided to loot for their own selfish gains under the guise of caring about the case at all.

If the media held officers lives in the same regard as a criminal (of any race) and gave them the same respect, maybe that would help bleed through to the public. This whole situation can't be fixed just by altering officer's perception of safety in regards to the public, just like it can't be solved by a quick fix on the public's side.

 

[Skizzo]

He is, our Eboue.

No coincidence that you're on the same side of the topic. Shocking that you'd think that someone who agrees with your viewpoint is "having a stormer"

 

[bpet15]

Your list didn't show the opposite. It showed cops at 10th, which hardly indicates a massive wrong since I said not in the top 10.

Anecdotes don't fuel my whole stance. In fact, my experience with police has been universally positive. But the statistics show minority communities are disproportionately targeted and arrested. That's not something I'm willing to ignore because I've had good experiences with police or because some police have been victims of violence. Moreover, I hold police to a higher standard than your average black teenager from Detroit or Oakland or Ferguson. Society does too.

I know you have been in favor of more transparency and I think that's great. I like you personally and I have no reason to believe that you are part of the problem. But there is a problem and it is systemic and the deference american society shows to police and military makes it so difficult to criticize practices because it is so often met with words about heroes or patriotism or anecdotes.

You may notice my refusal to engage with Americano about the brown case because I'm no interested in anecdotes. I'm interested in statistics, statistics that explain why minority communities often rally around such causes, even when not all of the details are in their favor.

Just because brown is more Claudette Colvin than Rosa Parks doesn't lessen the overall point.

I'm trying to wrap my pea sized brain around this one as I just haven't seen any statistics of people being disproportionately targeted - really not even sure how that stat would be kept. There is no question that minorities are disproportionately arrested but they also commit disproportionately more crimes. A 2012 NYPD report shows that 96% of shooting victims are minorities and 89% of all murder victims are minorities with 86% of suspects being minorities. The stats are similar when incorporating all violent crime. From this I can deduct that there will be more arrests of minorities than non-minorities simply because they are committing more of the crimes.

It is a very sad world indeed and all of us can do things to make it better but I just don't have a viable solution to put on the table as of yet.

If I am searching for an accountant to do my taxes, I am not going to search the slums of Brazil to try and find one...why should it be different for criminals? Doesn't it make sense that we have a much larger police presence in areas that are proven hot beds for crime?

No flames please as I truly am trying to understand the other sides thinking...I just haven't been able to do so yet.

 

[Nobby style]

I'm trying to wrap my pea sized brain around this one as I just haven't seen any statistics of people being disproportionately targeted - really not even sure how that stat would be kept. There is no question that minorities are disproportionately arrested but they also commit disproportionately more crimes. A 2012 NYPD report shows that 96% of shooting victims are minorities and 89% of all murder victims are minorities with 86% of suspects being minorities. The stats are similar when incorporating all violent crime. From this I can deduct that there will be more arrests of minorities than non-minorities simply because they are committing more of the crimes.

It is a very sad world indeed and all of us can do things to make it better but I just don't have a viable solution to put on the table as of yet.

If I am searching for an accountant to do my taxes, I am not going to search the slums of Brazil to try and find one...why should it be different for criminals? Doesn't it make sense that we have a much larger police presence in areas that are proven hot beds for crime?

No flames please as I truly am trying to understand the other sides thinking...I just haven't been able to do so yet.

Not so sure that is true in the drug war. I think it´s the same amount of drug users by race, but the minorities are by far arrested more. The day cops start targeting white college students in university towns in the drug war, you will see a massive change in drug laws.

 

[Eboue]

I know you have no issues with me (or I assumed so at least ) and I hope you know that I don't mean to make it sound like I'm attacking you, or making it personal. You've always managed to make your points in an articulate fashion, and been able to actually converse on the matter, unlike others who just slam their head repeatedly into the keyboard to make their "point"

The issue I have, and this is in general, rather than what you've said specifically...is that stats dont show the whole picture, or sometimes the honest picture. Stats can be skewed in any direction when trying to make whatever point you'd like to make.

I'm interested in why those people decide to rally around a case such as Brown's, without knowing the facts of the case, just because it was a black male and a white cop. That cop ended up having to change his entire life, after having been found to have done nothing wrong...just because of the skin colour of the involved parties. Yes, officers have helped that happen, as have the rioting minority crowds who decided to loot for their own selfish gains under the guise of caring about the case at all.

If the media held officers lives in the same regard as a criminal (of any race) and gave them the same respect, maybe that would help bleed through to the public. This whole situation can't be fixed just by altering officer's perception of safety in regards to the public, just like it can't be solved by a quick fix on the public's side.

I agree with a good chunk of what you are saying here. But you will have an extremely hard time convincing me that criminals get more sympathetic coverage than police in the media. The argument of those sympathetic to the criminal is often "yeah they were wrong/stupid but..." While the argument of the police supporters is often "heroes! 9/11! Freedom!".

You are right that there isn't one simple answer to improving relations but I do think acknowledging the issue is a necessary prerequisite.


As for why certain cases become causes, there is a lot of anger built up through a lifetime of getting the short end of the stick. So when a case does get a bit of attention, there are a lot of people with decades of grievances who finally have an audience willing to listen.