Rafael vs Valencia Rightback Debate

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Seen alot of these comparisons in their individual threads, here's a singular thread to put this debate into context.

Perhaps we've reached a stage where it's too late to change anything and we're looking to keep things stable as possible in an ever changing injury prone defence. But for the sake of debate, I'm going to put this thread out there so there can be a discussion on who should be playing in that role and why LVG has allowed the omission of Rafael to occur. Perhaps it's something we'll look into next season if Rafael is still here.

It's no secret Rafael is adored in the caf, an absolute fan favourite and recognized for his drive and passion. He's a talented fullback; pacey, great dribbler and delivers delicious crosses effortlessly. He's one of the most positive fullbacks in the world. Always looking for forward passes and an absolute engine, never seems to get tired. He was once notoriously known for his lapse of concentration early on in his career but has significantly improved and sharpened his game all around, the prospect of Rafa being on the right side of our 4-3-3 by being the "byline man" with Herrera and Mata damaging the inside seems quite mouthwatering to us fans but perhaps there's more to it. Perhaps the injuries in his career have hampered his consistency and his overall gametime in a back 4 that seems to change all the time. He was harshly denied opportunities to prove himself at times for an unproven McNair and it's fair to say that he hasn't been given the benefit of the doubt like other players (RVP, Falcao) when under-performing. If he leaves, whoever signs him will get the bargain of the century.

Next we've got Antonio Valencia, personally I think he's been one of our most consistent players. It's clear he can't do the job as a winger anymore. He was a monster for us in 2009 and 2010 on the right flank. Providing consistent crosses and pretty much robotically driving through the wing and driving past opponent fullbacks but it seems he has declined since suffering huge injuries. However he seems to have found a role as a right back. Fergie has been converting him into one since the 2012 season and after a few howlers he's become quite a stable man on the byline, his crosses aren't what they use to be but I commend him for his workrate and getting into great positions, he work's hard for the team and tracks back well. Excluding the Arsenal FA Cup match, he's been more or less consistent all season. Due to only being one-footed I did worry about him being pressed and conceding poor back passes but to my surprise that's rarely occurred. He understands his role very well and links up rather nicely and allows Herrera and Mata to do the creative side of the game and unselfishly acts as a runner for most periods of the match.

Share your thoughts on who would be more beneficial as a right back for us.
 
I love Rafael, but we have to go with the manager's decision here. Rafael is extremely talented, but his injuries are a concern and if the manager thinks he's not good enough to displace Valencia right now, then that's fair.
 
I love Rafa, yet he really does have issues staying fit for a consistent run of games.

And the fact that he's been supposedly fit for a couple of months yet van Gaal has opted for Valencia tells you exactly how much van Gaal rates him. Then you have the people citing that Rafa is too adventurous for LVG's play style, which I think as fans, is hard to determine the truth of. Who knows why he isn't selecting Rafa, maybe he's one of the small handful of players in the squad that supposedly (there was some rumor a while back) doesn't prefer LVG's style of play? Who knows really.

I personally think Rafael offers more offensively (actually having a left foot for instance) and is more defensively sound. On the whole, I rate him, it's just the guy cannot stay healthy to save his life. On top of that, Tony has been playing pretty well of late so it would be unfair to take him out of the squad.

Ultimately, I think we should be looking for a new RB altogether this summer as I don't think Valencia or Rafael are realistic long-term options.
 
@MyOnlySolskjaer great dribbler and delivers delicious crosses effortlessly.

No he isn't a great dribbler and he doesn't deliver consistent delicious crosses. Lets keep it real
 
Rafael is a much better RB in basically every category. But, for whatever reason Van Gaal does not rate him. That is something we are just going to have to accept.
 
@MyOnlySolskjaer great dribbler and delivers delicious crosses effortlessly.

No he isn't a great dribbler and he doesn't deliver consistent delicious crosses. Lets keep it real
He sure is a hell of a lot better at crossing than Valencia is - who likes driving crosses consistently into the shins of opposing fullbacks.

Dribbling wise I think Rafa is better, too. I mean, actually having a left foot usually helps.
 
A fit Rafael is everything you want in a fullback: adventurous, aggressive, fast, nimble, can tackle and also really hit a ball.

I personally never feel solid with Valencia, which is not to say that he hasn't been decent, but you never expect him to pull off an important tackle or really anticipate and intercept. The most I expect from Valencia defensively is that he catch up, go shoulder to shoulder, and maybe block. He's monstrously strong, of course, and strength can always be a virtue unto itself, but it feels like he is in a similar category to how we used to think about Fellaini, i.e., his strength lets him do a passable job in a position he's really not suited for.

Going forward, Valencia has been getting better in the last few games. He does try to occasionally overlap wide now and put in more crosses, whereas at one point earlier in the season, his trademark was to panic when in the final third, turn around, and get rid of the ball as soon as possible. I think having Mata (and Herrera) on that side helps him a lot, as he now has a reliable easy option that is not 30/40 yards back to De Gea or the centrebacks. That's made him better now, but, God, do you remember when McNair played right-back and felt like a breath of fresh air going forward?

Hm, I guess what I mean is I can't understand why Rafael isn't playing. There must be a very good reason.
 
van Gaal knows best. He is the expert. He sees them every day, we don't. I doubt whether he is making the wrong choice.

Some possible reasons why he prefers Valencia:
better physically
stays fit
better tactically
has adapted better to the philosophy
more consistent
plays better as part of a defensive unit
 
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He sure is a hell of a lot better at crossing than Valencia is - who likes driving crosses consistently into the shins of opposing fullbacks.

Dribbling wise I think Rafa is better, too. I mean, actually having a left foot usually helps.
Well he is

Kidding yourselves if you think Rafael is a great dribbler. His crossing is hit and miss as well. His link up play is his strongest attribute in attack
 
Rafael is a much better RB in basically every category. But, for whatever reason Van Gaal does not rate him. That is something we are just going to have to accept.

Well, his technique is better than Val's in pretty much every aspect but physically, he is nowhere near Valencia who just is a beast. Rafael is also one of my favorites, but he has to be one of the most injury prone players we have had so i can understand the reluctance to play him. We had a lot of trouble early in the season with chopping and changing in defense, so i can understand not playing someone who would get injured every five games or so
 
well, Van Gaal didn't have a place for Riquelme in his team and even for Rivaldo (and fluked on Herrera due to injuries). Rafael is in good company, when it comes to Van Gaal's irrationality.
 
On form, like in 12/13, Rafael was IMO the best right back in the league and had it in him to be one of the best around. He's still an excellent fullback on his day. The problem with him has always been injuries though and I can understand why Van Gaal has stuck with Valencia. It's not that he doesn't rate Rafael, I'm sure he does, but with Rafael, you can't rely on him to stay fit for more then 3-4 games at a time. It's constant chopping and changing. Now that might be okay in a settled team where everyone else is alright, but as it was, our entire defence has been constantly injured and nobody can solidify a position and form an understanding. That's why with our center backs, the ones who have played the most have basically been the ones who have been fit the most. And it shows in the quality of their performances.

Valencia on the other hand never gets injured, the guy is almost Ronaldo like physically speaking, so it's understandable that we've kept him in to form an understanding and get some consistency in the selection. People love to criticize him, but he's also a very consistent and solid performer for us, always a 6/10 at least (apart from the game against Arsenal where he cost us both goals but other then those moments he had a solid game). You can always rely on him to keep the ball under pressure, be a consistent and reliable out ball to relieve pressure and run with it, he always keeps his width, he's a great tackler, can out muscle pretty much anyone, and is pretty much that physical force to balance out Herrera and Mata over on the right like Fellaini does with Young/Di maria and Blind/Shaw on the left. He's also formed a very good understanding with Mata and Herrera which only helps. His final ball is frustrating as hell, but honestly, if he was better with his final ball and made his mind up quicker instead of lingering on the ball, he'd arguably be the best right back around. It's his one weakness, and it's very noticeable as he gets in good positions often. But apart from that, he's fine. Never stops running, can probably play 2-3 games a week all season and still be fine for every game and run more then the others as long as he doesn't get injured. Gets very harshly treated by United fans, especially this season where he has been good for the most part of the year.
 
Well, his technique is better than Val's in pretty much every aspect but physically, he is nowhere near Valencia who just is a beast. Rafael is also one of my favorites, but he has to be one of the most injury prone players we have had so i can understand the reluctance to play him. We had a lot of trouble early in the season with chopping and changing in defense, so i can understand not playing someone who would get injured every five games or so

Valencia has more pace but, Rafael is better in the air and just as strong. So I think even physically they are pretty close.
 
Unless Rafael isn't performing in training due to his injuries, there is no good reason he isn't our RB.

Van Gaal isn't perfect; Herrera having played only about 1300 minutes in the Prem this season is proof of that. Similarly to Herrera, Rafael is a player with energy and a desire to get forward who thus is a bit higher-risk as a result. Van Gaal doesn't seem to prize those qualities as highly as he rates safe players. This is fine when it's close, but Herrera and Rafael are so much better than the alternatives that it was a mistake to drop Herrera (and Mata) and the same is now happening with Rafael.
 
well, Van Gaal didn't have a place for Riquelme in his team and even for Rivaldo (and fluked on Herrera due to injuries). Rafael is in good company, when it comes to Van Gaal's irrationality.
Nothing irrational about it, Rafael gets injured every 3 games pretty much and Van Gaal needed stability in the team, especially in the back where our center backs and Shaw constantly picked up injuries. Same reason why Shaw won't be pushed back in when he's back. Blind and Valencia have both been solid and consistent, and stay fit so can form an understanding with those around them and give us consistency.

Also it's not like he's been like this all season. Van Gaal tried him in the first half of the season. Looking at his history on the transfermarket site, he was injured the first 3 games of the season, started the next 6 games, then was injured for the next 7-8 games, had a few sub appearances then got injured again and since then he's either been on the bench or in the reserves. What's the point in disrupting our team when Valencia hasn't been poor at all, when you know Rafael won't last?
 
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Nothing irrational about it, Rafael gets injured every 3 games pretty much and Van Gaal needed stability in the team, especially in the back where our center backs and Shaw constantly picked up injuries. Same reason why Shaw won't be pushed back in when he's back. Blind and Valencia have both been solid and consistent, and stay fit so can form an understanding with those around them and give us consistency.

Jones and Rojo have been injured multiple times this season(much more than Rafael has this season) yet have had no problem getting back in the team when fit.
 
On form, like in 12/13, Rafael was IMO the best right back in the league and had it in him to be one of the best around. He's still an excellent fullback on his day. The problem with him has always been injuries though and I can understand why Van Gaal has stuck with Valencia. It's not that he doesn't rate Rafael, I'm sure he does, but with Rafael, you can't rely on him to stay fit for more then 3-4 games at a time. It's constant chopping and changing. Now that might be okay in a settled team where everyone else is alright, but as it was, our entire defence has been constantly injured and nobody can solidify a position and form an understanding. That's why with our center backs, the ones who have played the most have basically been the ones who have been fit the most. And it shows in the quality of their performances.

Valencia on the other hand never gets injured, the guy is almost Ronaldo like physically speaking, so it's understandable that we've kept him in to form an understanding and get some consistency in the selection. People love to criticize him, but he's also a very consistent and solid performer for us, always a 6/10 at least (apart from the game against Arsenal where he cost us both goals but other then those moments he had a solid game). You can always rely on him to keep the ball under pressure, be a consistent and reliable out ball to relieve pressure and run with it, he always keeps his width, he's a great tackler, can out muscle pretty much anyone, and is pretty much that physical force to balance out Herrera and Mata over on the right like Fellaini does with Young/Di maria and Blind/Shaw on the left. He's also formed a very good understanding with Mata and Herrera which only helps. His final ball is frustrating as hell, but honestly, if he was better with his final ball and made his mind up quicker instead of lingering on the ball, he'd arguably be the best right back around. It's his one weakness, and it's very noticeable as he gets in good positions often. But apart from that, he's fine. Never stops running, can probably play 2-3 games a week all season and still be fine for every game and run more then the others as long as he doesn't get injured. Gets very harshly treated by United fans, especially this season where he has been good for the most part of the year.
Great second paragraph. It's important to focus on why van Gaal likes Valencia, not why or whether he dislikes Rafael.
 
Jones and Rojo have been injured multiple times this season(much more than Rafael has this season) yet have had no problem getting back in the team when fit.
The difference is Rafael is competing with Valencia, who has performed well for the most part and never gets injured basically. He offers a lot of things that help us and compliment Herrera and Mata really well with his physicality. The most important thing is the consistency.

Rojo and Jones are competing with each other, Smalling and Evans. They're all crocks and you can count on them getting injured after about 5-6 consistent games, apart from Rojo. That's why they're constantly being given more chances (and well Rojo is actually good). We have nobody who stays fit consistently and who you can rely on, and that's why we need changes at the back. Not that we're lacking in quality, which we are a bit, but mostly because nobody can stay fit long enough to form an understanding there.
 
Nothing irrational about it, Rafael gets injured every 3 games pretty much and Van Gaal needed stability in the team, especially in the back where our center backs and Shaw constantly picked up injuries. Same reason why Shaw won't be pushed back in when he's back. Blind and Valencia have both been solid and consistent, and stay fit so can form an understanding with those around them and give us consistency.

Also it's not like he's been like this all season. Van Gaal tried him in the first half of the season. Looking at his history on the transfermarket site, he was injured the first 3 games of the season, started the next 6 games, then was injured for the next 7-8 games, had a few sub appearances then got injured again and since then he's either been on the bench or in the reserves. What's the point in disrupting our team when Valencia hasn't been poor at all, when you know Rafael won't last?
its sweet that you think it is not irrational.
 
He's also formed a very good understanding with Mata and Herrera which only helps.
there is no understanding, it is just that he is there and they can use him. hi understanding is nothing significant which can't be matched by the likes of Bebe
 
its sweet that you think it is not irrational.
Irrational means that there's absolutely no logical reason behind that thinking, basically. There are loads of reasons why somebody would prefer Valencia over Rafael.
  • His strength and overall physicality
  • His consistency
  • Staying fit, which I can't emphasize enough
  • Not being rash with his decision as Rafael is at times when wound up and too eager like he would be if he got a start
  • Ability to hold onto the ball under pressure and keep width and always be an out ball
You may hate the guy for whatever reason, but he is a good player and there is a reason that Fergie, Moyes and now Van Gaal have used him consistently, and why Pep listed him as one of our best players before we played Bayern last year. Yes his decision making is shite and frustrating, but he is very reliable an basically nobody can compete with him physically.

The most important part of a defence is for them to stay fit and form an understanding together. Who the feck would want a defender who always gets injured? It's not like attacking players where you want them in the team for their moments of brilliance. With defenders, it's all about consistency and always being available so you form an understanding with the other defenders around you, giving all of you more confidence and you just learn the other persons game.
 
Overall, it's odd that Shaw and Rafael are not the first choice full backs. Long term, I don't know what LvG's plans are, but I hope there is still time to turn it around.
 
Overall, it's odd that Shaw and Rafael are not the first choice full backs. Long term, I don't know what LvG's plans are, but I hope there is still time to turn it around.
Hopefully Shaw gets over the injuries but I think he will. It's not unheard of for a young player like him to have an injury riddled season given his circumstances. He was a starter for Southampton for 2 seasons basically, then went to the world cup, all at the age of 18 or 19, and then joined United without having any time off. He needs a proper vacation, time to rest and a proper pre season. Long term he'll be fine, so long as his injuries don't turn into Rafael's levels of injury problems.
 
Irrational means that there's absolutely no logical reason behind that thinking, basically. There are loads of reasons why somebody would prefer Valencia over Rafael.
  • His strength and overall physicality
  • His consistency
  • Staying fit, which I can't emphasize enough
  • Not being rash with his decision as Rafael is at times when wound up and too eager like he would be if he got a start
  • Ability to hold onto the ball under pressure and keep width and always be an out ball

Rafael has not been injured that much this season. And Valencia can be just as much of a hot head and actually fouls more than Rafael does.
 
Irrational means that there's absolutely no logical reason behind that thinking, basically. There are loads of reasons why somebody would prefer Valencia over Rafael.
  • His strength and overall physicality
  • His consistency
  • Staying fit, which I can't emphasize enough
  • Not being rash with his decision as Rafael is at times when wound up and too eager like he would be if he got a start
  • Ability to hold onto the ball under pressure and keep width and always be an out ball
You may hate the guy for whatever reason, but he is a good player and there is a reason that Fergie, Moyes and now Van Gaal have used him consistently, and why Pep listed him as one of our best players before we played Bayern last year. Yes his decision making is shite and frustrating, but he is very reliable an basically nobody can compete with him physically.
i don't hate Valencia. he is good enough back-up but his performances are nowhere near as good as Rafael's and we wasted a lot of time in ensuring that we now have an average right-back who is keeping out a potential world-class right-back. if that is not irrational, what is?
 
Rafael has not been injured that much this season. And Valencia can be just as much of a hot head and actually fouls more than Rafael does.
In the first half of the season he missed like 11 of our first 17 games through injury, then picked up a knock shortly after and since then has just been a backup. Understandable that Van Gaal chose to stick with Valencia as he has actually played well consistently and formed an understanding with those around him. No reason to drop him for someone who will probably get injured after a few games, because that's what has always happened with Rafa. I love the guy, but apart from 12/13, he has always had constant injury problems and there comes a time where you just have to cut your losses.
 
i don't hate Valencia. he is good enough back-up but his performances are nowhere near as good as Rafael's and we wasted a lot of time in ensuring that we now have an average right-back who is keeping out a potential world-class right-back. if that is not irrational, what is?
Probably your Bebe comment above, which is less rational than anything van Gaal has ever said or done.
 
i don't hate Valencia. he is good enough back-up but his performances are nowhere near as good as Rafael's and we wasted a lot of time in ensuring that we now have an average right-back who is keeping out a potential world-class right-back. if that is not irrational, what is?
Nowhere near as good as Rafael's from 2012/13. 2 and 3 years ago. Not what he has shown since then, which is one good game, then one bad game basically. Yes, he could have become a world class fullback if he didn't have injury problems. Anderson could have become a world class midfielder if he didn't have injury problems. Rafael is in his 7th season with us now, and has had just one season where he stayed fit for the majority of it. There comes a time when you have to accept he won't get past the injury problems and they are here to stay. No point in constantly having more uncertainty in our defence with injuries as our center backs give us enough of that, in the hope that something that has hindered his entire United career will suddenly disappear.
 
Understandable that Van Gaal chose to stick with Valencia as he has actually played well consistently and formed an understanding with those around him.
again intangible subjective and very cloying need to justify an irrational decision.

and snap out of it, there is no significant understanding that Valencia brings which Bebe can't
 
Probably your Bebe comment above, which is less rational than anything van Gaal has ever said or done.
not really considering, Bebe plays for a La Liga team, one which is fighting for relegation though. my comment being that there is no significant understanding that Bebe brings, it is only that Valenica is there on the field as a body
 
again intangible subjective and very cloying need to justify an irrational decision.

and snap out of it, there is no significant understanding that Valencia brings which Bebe can't
How can you not notice that he formed a good understanding with them? Links up with them well, times his runs really well, is always an outlet for them when they get closed down, picks his moments when to overlap and Mata and Herrera always use him. It's something that only comes with consistent game time, which is something that Rafael will never get with his injuries. It's very similar to how Blind has formed one on the other side, and what Shaw struggled with when he played at left back.

I don't think you understand the word irrational if you keep insisting that Van Gaal picking Valencia ahead of Rafael is irrational. It's a decision that makes a lot of sense when you think about it objectively for more then a few seconds without letting personal opinions on players cloud your judgement.
 
Nowhere near as good as Rafael's from 2012/13. 2 and 3 years ago. Not what he has shown since then, which is one good game, then one bad game basically. Yes, he could have become a world class fullback if he didn't have injury problems. Anderson could have become a world class midfielder if he didn't have injury problems. Rafael is in his 7th season with us now, and has had just one season where he stayed fit for the majority of it. There comes a time when you have to accept he won't get past the injury problems and they are here to stay. No point in constantly having more uncertainty in our defence with injuries as our center backs give us enough of that, in the hope that something that has hindered his entire United career will suddenly disappear.
Rafael is still only 24 and the seasons before 2012/13 was still growing up and also shared appearances with Jones/Smalling because of physicality and giving the others some game time. So you can't really call him injury-prone before that.
 
Rafael is still only 24 and the seasons before 2012/13 was still growing up and also shared appearances with Jones/Smalling because of physicality and giving the others some game time. So you can't really call him injury-prone before that.
He was very much a starter when fit before though, he shared game time with Jones and Smalling because of how injury prone he was. It's ridiculous saying he wasn't injury prone, as in that year everyone was saying how he finally got over the constant injury problems and hopefully he's past them for good (which he clearly isn't).
 
How can you not notice that he formed a good understanding with them? Links up with them well, times his runs really well, is always an outlet for them when they get closed down, picks his moments when to overlap and Mata and Herrera always use him. It's something that only comes with consistent game time, which is something that Rafael will never get with his injuries. It's very similar to how Blind has formed one on the other side, and what Shaw struggled with when he played at left back.

I don't think you understand the word irrational if you keep insisting that Van Gaal picking Valencia ahead of Rafael is irrational. It's a decision that makes a lot of sense when you think about it objectively for more then a few seconds without letting personal opinions on players cloud your judgement.
ultimately if one makes an inferior decision and tries to justify it, it is still irrational behaviour.

i am talking about it in an economics sense - i can see why you dispute with the usage of irrational

edit- as for linking up, what Valencia does is the barely the minimum expected for an United right-back considering how much we have of the ball, there is no special credit for it. do you really think someone else in that position won't be linking up better? Name one player at this level, who you think won't link up any better than Valencia does?
 
I didn't think it was such a divisive choice to go with Valencia over Rafael, particularly considering our run of form and our points tally. I love Rafael and I would probably have thrown a strop if Moyes was doing it, but Van Gaal appears to be fair to his players. Rafael still turns up for U21's. When you think of it, Rafael's position is not that different to Shaw. I hope both of them are here next season.
 
ultimately if one makes an inferior decision and tries to justify it, it is still irrational behaviour.

i am talking about it in an economics sense - i can see why you dispute with the usage of irrational

edit- as for linking up, what Valencia does is the barely the minimum expected for an United right-back considering how much we have of the ball, there is no special credit for it. do you really think someone else in that position won't be linking up better? Name one player at this level, who you think won't link up any better than Valencia does?
In your opinion it is an inferior decision, but no that's not irrational behaviour anyway. Semantics though.

Just for shits, I did that comparison matrix on squawka to compare their stats... Valencia wins in literally every category apart from clearances, interceptions (Rafael having like double per 90 minutes), fouls committed and blocks (which are only marginal). Valencia is better with passes per 90 minutes, chances created (marginal), tackles won, less tackles loss, successful take ons, aerial duels, key passes, less defensive errors, and then however they calculate their possesion/atttack/defence score, Valencia wins in all 3.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...defensive_errors/key_passes/fouls_suffered#90