Fair enough, he also does pretty much everything else better based on this season's comparison matrix on Squawka
Rafael vs Valencia Rightback Debate
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Fair enough, he also does pretty much everything else better based on this season's comparison matrix on Squawka
I think the key part of Van Gaal's system that Valencia excels at is ball retention. It's been said a few times that only the four attacking players are "allowed" to lose the ball. The rest of the team gets into an attacking shape when defensive players have the ball. If a defensive player loses the ball from a sloppy pass or being tackled/ shrugged off it then the whole team is in poor shape to defend the counter attack.
Before Mata stepped out of the helicopter and stole my heart, Rafael was my main man. I still love him and have been extremely frustrated to see the way he has been pretty much frozen out. However, I accept it's van Gaal's team and he has every right to do what he wants with it.
Besides the things that make Rafael a fan favourite, the passion, the effort, the drive etc, I have always felt his game was always maturing. Among us fans and opposition fans, I feel he is wrongly labelled with certain terms (like rash and inconsistent) based on his past, rather than what he actually produces. Sure, he is an attacking fullback and with any fullback that gets forward a lot, a price you pay is the occasional defensive lapse. That's football and fans have to accept that. However, I think in recent seasons, his defensive qualities have matured greatly and is quite a balanced fullback. Besides maybe Zabaleta (not this season) I have never seen a RB influence a side as much as Rafael. We are clearly a far better team when he plays, so that's where a lot of the frustration stems from for me.
In saying all that, I was one of Valencia's few fans, especially earlier this season. I don't think he is a great RB but he was and is doing a fine job considering. On the defensive side, he clearly isn't a natural and he unfortunately has lost that quality going forward but he is getting the job done. With his form though and as frustrated as I have been, I can fully see why van Gaal has stuck with him over Rafael. I think Valencia would make a great option as a backup RB or wide man on the right but fair play to him for working his way into van Gaal's plans.
So as much as I want to see Rafael play, I'm fairly certain it's just a case of van Gaal not rating him, I don't agree with it but who am I to question him. So stuck with Valencia for next season, we do need to invest in a RB because when I look at how we can become the best in Europe, I can't see that including the current Valencia at RB.
Besides the things that make Rafael a fan favourite, the passion, the effort, the drive etc, I have always felt his game was always maturing. Among us fans and opposition fans, I feel he is wrongly labelled with certain terms (like rash and inconsistent) based on his past, rather than what he actually produces. Sure, he is an attacking fullback and with any fullback that gets forward a lot, a price you pay is the occasional defensive lapse. That's football and fans have to accept that. However, I think in recent seasons, his defensive qualities have matured greatly and is quite a balanced fullback. Besides maybe Zabaleta (not this season) I have never seen a RB influence a side as much as Rafael. We are clearly a far better team when he plays, so that's where a lot of the frustration stems from for me.
In saying all that, I was one of Valencia's few fans, especially earlier this season. I don't think he is a great RB but he was and is doing a fine job considering. On the defensive side, he clearly isn't a natural and he unfortunately has lost that quality going forward but he is getting the job done. With his form though and as frustrated as I have been, I can fully see why van Gaal has stuck with him over Rafael. I think Valencia would make a great option as a backup RB or wide man on the right but fair play to him for working his way into van Gaal's plans.
So as much as I want to see Rafael play, I'm fairly certain it's just a case of van Gaal not rating him, I don't agree with it but who am I to question him. So stuck with Valencia for next season, we do need to invest in a RB because when I look at how we can become the best in Europe, I can't see that including the current Valencia at RB.
My main concern about Valencia is that he offers almost nothing going forward. He has become a solid right FB but if you compare that to some of the best players in his position it's just not enough to be solid defensively. While Rafael certainly is better going forward he has also show that he can barely stay fit for more than a handful of games in a row which isn't bound to help with his development and if there is one thing that Rafael needs it's maturing and calmness on the ball and when defending.
So yeah atm I think Valencia is simply the better solution as he is the more reliable one and since we need players that we can rely on 100% to get back into the CL next season I think atm it's the right decision to play Valencia. For next season though LvG has a decision to make if he will give Rafael another chance or if he will buy a new right FB as simply put for the long run Valencia isn't good enough if we really want to get back to competing with the best teams in Europe.
That being said I feel right now there is a real shortage of good FBs who tick all the boxes and maybe we won't be able to bring in a world class solution but than we need to look at the up and coming players like Clyne for example.
So yeah atm I think Valencia is simply the better solution as he is the more reliable one and since we need players that we can rely on 100% to get back into the CL next season I think atm it's the right decision to play Valencia. For next season though LvG has a decision to make if he will give Rafael another chance or if he will buy a new right FB as simply put for the long run Valencia isn't good enough if we really want to get back to competing with the best teams in Europe.
That being said I feel right now there is a real shortage of good FBs who tick all the boxes and maybe we won't be able to bring in a world class solution but than we need to look at the up and coming players like Clyne for example.
How is this even a debate, when Valencia shouldn't even be at Man United in the first place.
Im 100% positive that this is a personal issue between Rafael and Van Gaal.
Im 100% positive that this is a personal issue between Rafael and Van Gaal.
I prefer Rafael but Tony has hardly done anything wrong recently. Always available for Mata and Herrera which suits them both. Also the days of bad positioning seem the be behind him, so he has learned that part to be a proper RB (wait and see in the top games coming). Tony always had the muscles to be a defender.
In terms of crossing both are equally bad. Rafael is more adventureous going forward but Louis focus is keeping the ball so I see why he prefers Tony atm.
Big plus for Tony, he stays fit.
If Tony can further improve on the defending from a tactical perspective I see no need to sign Clyne or someone at RB. Rafa and Tony are 2 good options.
In terms of crossing both are equally bad. Rafael is more adventureous going forward but Louis focus is keeping the ball so I see why he prefers Tony atm.
Big plus for Tony, he stays fit.
If Tony can further improve on the defending from a tactical perspective I see no need to sign Clyne or someone at RB. Rafa and Tony are 2 good options.
I don't think it's personal, some managers just have blind spots. The fact is that Van Gaal will not have seen every game that Rafael has ever played like we have and certainly I'd say he has limited experience of watching him in competitive matches. Looking at it objectively this season only you can understand why. Rafael has started the following League games: QPR, Leiceser, West Ham, Everton, West Brom, Chelsea. Out of our 28 goals conceded this season, 10 were in these 6 games (1.67 average vs 0.72 in others). Basically from a purely statistical point of view we're conceding more than twice as often with him in the team (obviously that doesn't take into account the injury crises).
Some players become synonymous with a problem in the team with some managers. Mourinho didn't trust Mata to carry out his philosophy, likewise it seems Van Gaal doesn't trust Rafael. It really is a shame because I still think he has all the components to replicate Evra's success here. Perhaps if we strengthen our central defence Van Gaal may be willing to give him another shot.
You need to drop the hate and start looking at Valencia more objectively. He's been one of the best right backs in the league this season.
Neither is a Man Utd class right-back, so there shouldn't really be any debate on their respective merits.
Having a mostly stable and established defence has benefited us a lot lately, so we might as well stick with Valencia. Plus, it's been so long since Rafael featured in the first team that it might take him time to find form between now and the end of the season which is a slight risk. A new right back is required this summer anyway, which might have had implications on Rafael's future even if he started every game.
I'm really not that hung up about it like some on here.
I'm really not that hung up about it like some on here.
Can you explain what you mean by Man United class RB? Especially considering Rafael was one of our best performances in our last title winning season. Was he not Man United class then?
Rafael is a much better full back who offers more going forward. Valencia is the solid type, doesn't make many mistakes and tends to play the percentage game which LVG probably likes. People are probably happy with him staying there for now because they forgot how good Rafael can be. Injuries in the past haven't helped but I do feel Rafael has been treated pretty unfairly over the season when other players have been in and out the side due to injury and bloody Paddy Mcnair starts at right back over him. He should be starting over Valencia, can't help but feel we would be so much better down the right with him there.
The whole 'injuries' argument has some issues, to be honest.
As others have pointed out, several other players have been affected by injuries this season (almost all of them in fact) and yet are given a chance as soon as they've trained for a couple of weeks (in some cases they walk straight back into the team).
If it's about being injury-prone, implying that LVG has looked back on the injury records of all of our players and decided Rafael is not reliable, it doesn't seem to have stopped him giving RVP and Jones every chance of carving out a spot in the XI. Bit different, but even Fletcher was getting opportunities here and there in the first half of the season, despite LVG knowing he probably couldn't be a long term solution for us.
As others have pointed out, several other players have been affected by injuries this season (almost all of them in fact) and yet are given a chance as soon as they've trained for a couple of weeks (in some cases they walk straight back into the team).
If it's about being injury-prone, implying that LVG has looked back on the injury records of all of our players and decided Rafael is not reliable, it doesn't seem to have stopped him giving RVP and Jones every chance of carving out a spot in the XI. Bit different, but even Fletcher was getting opportunities here and there in the first half of the season, despite LVG knowing he probably couldn't be a long term solution for us.
Both of them are important to our squad and LVG should not let either of them leave this summer. Some may argue we need a 'world class' right back but there is no point bringing someone in offsetting the balance of the team.
Valencia offer consistency and kept possession better than Rafael. Offers great strength and is a no nonsense player. However his attacking play has been unproductive.
Rafael on the other hand adds another dimension in attack in terms of his better crosses and also his creative flair. Of course he is very prone to unnecessary mistakes and also weak against big attacking players in the air.
All in all both are valuable to the team, the reason why we don't see Rafael playing at the moment is due to the fact Valencia has been keeping the balance on the right hand side. Not to forget with our limited number of games this season, there are less chances to rotate among those 2. Wait till next season when we have to be involve in european games by then.
Valencia will be great to start against top teams as he adds strength at the back and Rafael can start against weaker sides to break down opponent defense. I see this as a win-win situation.
Valencia offer consistency and kept possession better than Rafael. Offers great strength and is a no nonsense player. However his attacking play has been unproductive.
Rafael on the other hand adds another dimension in attack in terms of his better crosses and also his creative flair. Of course he is very prone to unnecessary mistakes and also weak against big attacking players in the air.
All in all both are valuable to the team, the reason why we don't see Rafael playing at the moment is due to the fact Valencia has been keeping the balance on the right hand side. Not to forget with our limited number of games this season, there are less chances to rotate among those 2. Wait till next season when we have to be involve in european games by then.
Valencia will be great to start against top teams as he adds strength at the back and Rafael can start against weaker sides to break down opponent defense. I see this as a win-win situation.
I'm unsure about this.
On the one hand I agree with those saying that Rafael is simply the better player, but I also agree with people saying that Valencia hasn't been bad enough to drop and you can rely on him to be fit more than you can with Rafael.
Either way I doubt it will be an issue for long. I think Van Gaal will sell Rafael in the summer and buy a new right back.
On the one hand I agree with those saying that Rafael is simply the better player, but I also agree with people saying that Valencia hasn't been bad enough to drop and you can rely on him to be fit more than you can with Rafael.
Either way I doubt it will be an issue for long. I think Van Gaal will sell Rafael in the summer and buy a new right back.
This.
Also, there's no point trying to re-introduce Rafael this late in the season. Consistency is the key now.
Rafael is the better player but he offers zero consistency to the team with his injury issues.
I'm fairly happy with Valencia for now. Defensively he's done a good job. Been shit going forward but I have zero expectations from him on that count. He's a consistent 6 or 7/10.
I'm fairly happy with Valencia for now. Defensively he's done a good job. Been shit going forward but I have zero expectations from him on that count. He's a consistent 6 or 7/10.
It would be fairer to compare it to the last time Rafael had a consistent run in the side: 12/13 Rafael is equal, better, or much better in every single area.
A fit Rafael is definitely better than Valencia (expect in big games, where Rafael is a sure bet to get a yellow with in the first 30 minutes). The problem is Rafael's frequent injuries.
People questioning Rafael's rashness should take a note of some of Valencia's challenges. Or for that matter any attacking right back.
People questioning Rafael's rashness should take a note of some of Valencia's challenges. Or for that matter any attacking right back.
Looking through Valencia's stats again I think one also has to realize that he has done a really good job this season so far and seems to do exactly what LvG wants from him so in LvG's eyes it might simply be the case the Valencia is the player that fits into the role he wants him to play better than Rafael. I'm still not convinced by Valencia's attacking potential but if you go by the stats alone Valencia is on par if not even better than the best FB's in the league this season.
http://goo.gl/jJ0nVZ
I feel that's quite impressive tbh. One of the things that probably often gives such a bad impression of Valencia is the fact that he sometimes completely bottles an attacking move with a sensationally shitty cross or pass and those are the things that often form the impression of him while a lot of the smaller stuff, he all does well, goes unnoticed.
I did almost the same comparison and stats wise he really is the best right FB in the league atm.
http://goo.gl/jJ0nVZ
So yeah going by stats alone there is little doubt he deserves to be our starter atm.
Rafael. Always Rafael. Valencia has gone from a consistently 4/10 player to now a 6/10 player and because standards were so low people pass him off as a plausible RB. He wastes attacks, he's awfully predictable, and his positioning is very suspect. Despite improving defensively in the last 6 months or so, Rafael is still superior.
What Rafael did 2 years ago has about as much relevance as what Valencia did 3 years ago. I don't know why this has been such a debate on here and the wild conspiracy theories. I also don't know how people who have admitted how much they love Rafael can't see how they're blinded to his weaknesses. He's not rash they say, everybody is wrong but us. An objective opinion is normally better than a subjective one. The team's performances and results have been fine without him. Why would we change that now?
I suppose id also add that with mata at right wing a cautious RB is more important than an attacking one.
Don't really rate rafael if I'm honest, once I look past the passion for the club, energy and smiling etc.
Thought he'd be a world beater when I first saw him but still makes same errors as he did when was first in the team which, after all this time and exposure to first team football, best manager ever, coaching at United etc is poor.
Remains a walking yellow card and given how LVG reflects on the Leicester game, not overly surprised Rafael hasn't really been trusted since.
Valencia not much better either, admittedly, but more reliable.
Next year we should have a proper right back, who can be relied on to stay fit, do the business at both ends of the pitch and not be a liability.
Thought he'd be a world beater when I first saw him but still makes same errors as he did when was first in the team which, after all this time and exposure to first team football, best manager ever, coaching at United etc is poor.
Remains a walking yellow card and given how LVG reflects on the Leicester game, not overly surprised Rafael hasn't really been trusted since.
Valencia not much better either, admittedly, but more reliable.
Next year we should have a proper right back, who can be relied on to stay fit, do the business at both ends of the pitch and not be a liability.
Rafael when fit is better than Valencia.
Valencia seems to be consistent enough. That is not a good reason for him to be rated above Rafael. As many pointed out, he is one dimensional and fullbacks easily suss him out when he is attacking. I also don't think, he is as good a defender. I know people would back that up with stats saying that he is better defender. Valencia having a consistent run in a winning team doesn't mean, he has contributed much. Stats don't mean much for this season, because he has played more than Rafael.
Personally, I don't think Rafael hasn't been offered a good run by LVG, probably do to his injuries.
Also, people pointing out that LVG knows better than us, didn't LVG keep Herrera and Mata out of the team for a long time before he realized it was a mistake.
EDIT: As for people saying he is not being selected based on his injury record, so is Smalling and Jones, yet they are first choice when they are fit.
Valencia seems to be consistent enough. That is not a good reason for him to be rated above Rafael. As many pointed out, he is one dimensional and fullbacks easily suss him out when he is attacking. I also don't think, he is as good a defender. I know people would back that up with stats saying that he is better defender. Valencia having a consistent run in a winning team doesn't mean, he has contributed much. Stats don't mean much for this season, because he has played more than Rafael.
Personally, I don't think Rafael hasn't been offered a good run by LVG, probably do to his injuries.
Also, people pointing out that LVG knows better than us, didn't LVG keep Herrera and Mata out of the team for a long time before he realized it was a mistake.
EDIT: As for people saying he is not being selected based on his injury record, so is Smalling and Jones, yet they are first choice when they are fit.
Right backs are expected to perform their defensive responsibilities to a high standard, which is what Valencia has done consistently, this season. As long as continues doing so, he won't be dropped. His lack of creativity or attacking threat is not required as long as he has Mata and Herrera around him. Rafael won't displace him till pre-season, unfortunately, where he's going to have to shine, assuming he stays here.
It's not a stat that really proves anything though. A foul in the oppositions half to break up play and stop a counter is a positive thing. A foul on the edge of our area, not so much yet they are lumped into the same statistic.
It seems to me LVG values pragmatism over anything else; Rafael is the better RB but he is also anything but pragmatic. Valencia is doing a job there right now with minimal fuss and not much criticism. Rafael takes risks in attack and defence, Valencia doesn't and although sometimes I would love Valencia to open up on the wing and charge down the line as opposed to stopping and playing a short backward/sideways pass, he very rarely makes mistakes that cost us. Defensive mistakes were the main crux of our problem early on in the season and by that I mean unforced errors. Rafael has history of rash decision making at key moments and LVG probably did his homework after that Leicester debacle.
Definitely a factor. But also Valencia's current form has to be considered a reason. The fact of the matter is that Skwaka atm has him as the second best right FB in Europe's top 5 leagues. (http://goo.gl/n7sCB9)
So stats wise he is certainly up there with the best but when watching him play I somehow don't really think of him as a top right FB. But that might also be due to the fact that atm I could barely name a world class FB bar Alaba who is playing on the left. I mean Rafinha who currently is the highest rated right FB in Europe is certainly having a good season but I'm still not sure if I would put him into the world class category. Which imo just goes to show that there is a genuine lack of quality in that position currently.
Clyne atm seems to be the most promising young right FB despite his low possession score but I feel this is also a bit down to how much risk he is allowed to take at Southampton as a FB compared to a possession based playing style as ours.
With the current setup, there is no need for Valencia to bomb forward and leave the right side exposed. We have enough creativity elsewhere, so I agree that LvG prefers a more calming player currently. Valencia does a solid job, there is no need to mix it up currently.
I was one of the many who would have preferred Rafael to be given a chance, but with how tight it is and the fact Valencia deserves to be in the team then I am happy not to change him.
There's no stat for caught out of position.
I think it's consistency and safety. Rafael might be better than Valencia at RB but Valencia doesn't get injured often so gives the back four stability and Valencia also makes less mistakes by playing it safe.
"Not Man Utd class" - not good enough to be on the pitch against top European opposition. That's what we should measure players by if they want to be in the starting eleven. In my opinion neither Rafael or Valencia is in that category.
@Pexbo
Those Sqwaka comparisons are not really all that helpful without context. The pass completion rate surprises me considering the number of his crosses that end up any where but at the feet/head of one of our players. It must only count ground passes, in which case it makes sense. Mata and Herrera do all of the risky passing whereas Valencia is there merely to support them. Our possession based football definitely boosts that stat.
What is even more confusing about those stats is that Zabaleta is widely known as having a poor season, at least in comparison to previous years (just look at the bluemoon thread on him, I guess they watch him the most). However, according to that comparison he comes off very well.
Valencia is not a top right back, neither attacking nor defensive-wise. Rafael was, but can't stay fit. Basically we need a new RB, but if Rafa is fit, we should play him.
Valencia offers stability and consistency and I think LVG will value that very highly in an otherwise largely unstable defense.
Rafael is definitely the better right back, and it isn't even close, but Valencia is the safe choice for now. I still have hope that after we get a solid center back in this summer that LVG trusts he'll take more risks and give Rafael a chance.
Rafael is definitely the better right back, and it isn't even close, but Valencia is the safe choice for now. I still have hope that after we get a solid center back in this summer that LVG trusts he'll take more risks and give Rafael a chance.
There's a debate? Why is there a debate?
Rafael is a good right back when he's fit, Valencia isn't ever a good right back. He's just adequate to cover for a good right back
Rafael is a good right back when he's fit, Valencia isn't ever a good right back. He's just adequate to cover for a good right back
As far as I can see the only thing Valencia has over Rafael is his fitness and upper body strength.
Rafael is braver, more intelligent, more comfortable on the ball and is much better at crossing. I'd say he's even got better positional sense and he actually commits fewer fouls, and those are Rafael's two key weaknesses.
The only logical reason I can see as to why Valencia is still there is for consistency because he can last 90 minutes without fail, and doesn't pick up an injury in every other match.
Rafael is braver, more intelligent, more comfortable on the ball and is much better at crossing. I'd say he's even got better positional sense and he actually commits fewer fouls, and those are Rafael's two key weaknesses.
The only logical reason I can see as to why Valencia is still there is for consistency because he can last 90 minutes without fail, and doesn't pick up an injury in every other match.