The broader point is he has now found a formation that works, so why mess with it at such a critical juncture of our season when a CL spot is at stake.
Rafael vs Valencia Rightback Debate
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
The broader point is he has now found a formation that works, so why mess with it at such a critical juncture of our season when a CL spot is at stake.
Because we have a clear weakspot that has been exposed the last time we played a good team and if that hadnt have happened we might already have that spot wrapped up?
Sir Alex pretty much always played Rafael when he was fit. Moyes didn't, but I assume you arent referring to him as one of the greatest managers in football history.
I do think it's largely down to their style though, but I think that's also caused by the quality of the rest of the back line. Not really having two settled center backs or a left back has meant that Valencia and De Gea have been the only constants in defense and I can see why LVG would want to keep that for now.
All of this seems sortve pointless at this point because most of the transfer talk we've seen so far has stated that a right back is priority.
Well yes, we likely would've had 4th wrapped up if not for the Leicester result.
It wasn't "exposed", he had a brainfart and made a bad back pass and the first goal the whole defence got dragged apart, it happens. Can happen to anyone. Wenger shoved Sanchez on his side and Sanchez did virtually nothing all game. Anyways, that was his worst game all season and since then we've played spurs and Liverpool when they were full of confidence, both good teams.
Those are just the times we paid for his mistakes. Just because the opposition didnt score the other times doesnt mean he wasnt constantly out of position all throughout the match.
Valencia kept showing Sanchez inside onto his right foot everytime he got the ball, instead of showing him outside onto his weaker foot as a defender would have and I said at half time we clearly needed to change him or it'll cost us. Low and behold it happens, if I can see it coming then a professional should have been alive to it as well.
This means feck all. All players make brain farts every now and then, including "your boy" Rafael during the Leicester game and De Gea just this last week. You need to look at the bigger picture which clearly indicates LvG feels the current chemistry of players he is fielding are working well together, which is translating into us playing better, more attractive football, finally scoring goals, and leading a legitimate charge for a top 2 finish. Why on earth would he jeopardize that by randomly swapping players when his current starting XI are working.
Why did he finally put Ander in?
Why isn't Chris Smalling the first defender on the teamsheet?
In 2009/2010 only Zabaleta could be argued to have been a finer rightback in the premier league than Rafael. He's still only 24 years old and we really have people who prefer a failed winger who doesn't hold his rightback position and wanders all over the place?
I love Rafael but it's clear as day that Van Gaal doesn't and i'd be surprised to see him still at the club after the summer.
The last time Van Gaal faced United before he took over, Rafael was sent off while we were in top of Bayern in that QF and arguably lost us the tie.
Then, in Van Gaals first important game of this season, against Chelsea, he picked up a rash booking early on which put us under pressure for the rest of the game.
I'd say Van Gaal had his suspicions coming here, and that game only confirmed it. He reckons Rafael's a hothead and will cost us more than he earns.
We don't necessarily agree because we love watching fellas play with their heart on their sleeves but to LVG, discipline is everything.
The last time Van Gaal faced United before he took over, Rafael was sent off while we were in top of Bayern in that QF and arguably lost us the tie.
Then, in Van Gaals first important game of this season, against Chelsea, he picked up a rash booking early on which put us under pressure for the rest of the game.
I'd say Van Gaal had his suspicions coming here, and that game only confirmed it. He reckons Rafael's a hothead and will cost us more than he earns.
We don't necessarily agree because we love watching fellas play with their heart on their sleeves but to LVG, discipline is everything.
Its also been clear that LVG didn't want to put Ander in, doesnt rate Smalling above Rojo and Jones, had a period of not using Mata, had a period of not giving Januzaj chances and so on.
With LVG it seems like he has his favourites one week and then a month later someone else could be important to the current team. So there's still surely a chance for Rafael just as there were eventually for others.
But if he never gets the chance to start he can't prove he's the right man for the job. Again, other players who were left out in the cold eventually got their chances so surely Rafael gets his
Because he found the right combination of players that are doing what he wants them to, and that includes Herrera now.
Werent his previous selection of players doing what he wanted, hence not having space for Ander?
Was he really picking 11 players that arent doing what he wants?
He obviously was picking the wrong players, which was being driven by the fact that he was still getting to know then, toying with formations, and dealing with injuries. Now that he has finally struck the right combination, he is going to want to hold on to it rather than revert back to experimentation. If Rafa is healthy and LvG feels he can make a better contribution than Tony V, then he would obviously start him. The fact that he has now consistently overlooked him suggests he doesn't trust his temperament or feels Val is better at executing the fundamentals of what he wants at RB.
Do you blame Rafael for that penalty at Leicester?
I don't blame him, but do realize that shit happens and in that case the penalty gifted momentum back in Leicester's favor.
Oh I completely agree, that must be what he feels.
I'm just saying he's wrong.
And I wonder if Rafael's rashness against LVG's Bayern a number of years ago still plays on his mind. Mind you in the same game Nani arguably had his best game for United and he's been allowed to leave, so maybe he's completely forgotten the match
I think it does. The sending off was crucial to Bayern going through. Couple that with the Vardy incident and it seems to make perfect sense why he's not playing.
And it may be a sign that LvG prefers team players who focus on the greater good of the squad over individual flair and creativity, which obviously didn't bode well for the likes of Nani and Zaha. Di Maria's challenge will be to convert his creative instincts into the team's strategy.
True but it's very harsh to use that in an argument against Rafael. It was effectively bad luck, possibly mixed with some character stereotyping. Valencia could just as easily concede a penalty to a decision that terrible.
I think there are two things working against Rafael. One is that he's a permacrock who can never stay fit for a long run of games and the other that he's rash. Only perhaps Rooney or Jones IMO is more capable of a brainless foul or red card than he is. I also wonder a lot about his attitude after the disgusting treatment Fabio got under Moyes.
In terms of skill, Rafael is obviously the better player but Valencia is durable and can put a reliable shift in. With the injury problems of our backs this year, Valencia has been the one constant and has done a serviceable job.
Having said that, we need more than a 'serviceable' player on the right and we should sign a high quality back this summer.
In terms of skill, Rafael is obviously the better player but Valencia is durable and can put a reliable shift in. With the injury problems of our backs this year, Valencia has been the one constant and has done a serviceable job.
Having said that, we need more than a 'serviceable' player on the right and we should sign a high quality back this summer.
I'm not sure if the stereotyping is very far off the mark. Rafa definitely has a reputation for being a bit more risky and cavalier than Tony, which I'm guessing plays into Van Gaal's selection logic
I dont think Valencia wandering out of position is for the greater good of the team. I think it leads to more work and less success for the team. But he's definitely keen to pass the buck to other players rather than do something himself like Rafael would do more often.
I'd rather he do that with Mata more than capable of making something happen in attack.
We can all thank James fecking Vardy for this debacle.
That game resulted in a shit football and the end for Rafael.
I like Valencia and have defended him loads on here but United should have a highly technical RB that is great at attacking. Rafael is basically a Brazilian right footed Evra that gets injured more.
That game resulted in a shit football and the end for Rafael.
I like Valencia and have defended him loads on here but United should have a highly technical RB that is great at attacking. Rafael is basically a Brazilian right footed Evra that gets injured more.
It was indeed crucial, but Rafael was playing very well until he boiled over and made that last challenge. So it would be a bit silly just to take away from it that he's a rash player you dont want to work with. He's still only 24 years old, he was so young when he did it that a top manager should be thinking that they can work on that rashness and end up with a great player.
Also Jones has been one of his favourites and he's rash too. Fellaini is rash with his tackles and he's another that LVG favours. It doesn't really make sense that he'd only hold it against one player
When was that?
Rafael is nowhere near as good as Patrice Evra was. Rafael will likely leave and will almost certainly fall down the football pyramid.
It wasnt, it was in the cup
My mistake. I guess you could make an argument that losing the Arsenal game could have affected our players mentally, but we've done well since then so its unlikely.I wouldn't call Jones rash but I can see how you could make the comparison. The difference is at this point I'm not overly worried that Jones will make a Phil Jones challenge in a dangerous area resulting in a free kick or penalty. I can't say the same for Rafael, as much as I enjoy his playing style. I think he's got a bit of Carragher about him in that he does get exposed and has to make rash or crucial tackles in risky spots because he's trying to make up ground. Harsh but to me it's the only reasonable explanation.
You've mentioned Valencia wandering against Arsenal but I think it's pretty clear he was under instructions to man-mark Sanchez as long as it was reasonable (i.e. don't end up at left back). It led to confusion in the defence for the opener but otherwise he did a good job against a very on form player.
Yeah I saw him go over to left wing, so I dont think thats it at all.
He wandered pretty far for that opener but can you really let Sanchez go near the area? I still think LvG told him to Sean Paul Sanchez.
I don't blame him for that, perhaps Di Maria or any other player covering the right back spot should have been more alert and known that there would be times Antonio would be caught out of position when on strict duty to shut out a roaming Sanchez.
I have to agree. When we signed him and his brother I was very excited about their prospects. The best thing about them both is their engine/work ethic as you say, everything else about them is still very unpolished. It was excusable when he came to united as a teen, but Rafael will be 25 in July and can anyone tell me he's really improved by leaps and bounds as a player over the years? Fundamentally he really hasn't made much progress. He's loved for three things mostly, his likeable personality, his passion and his drive/workrate.
Last edited:
He was the 2nd most solid RB in the league in 2010, he was not that good defensively when he came so its obvious progress. Since then he hasnt been able to get back to the same level of consistancy and has had his injuries
Shouldn't be a debate.
Valencia is doing an okay job but crucially he's consistently okay and in the team nearly every week.
Something Rafael can't do.
Valencia is doing an okay job but crucially he's consistently okay and in the team nearly every week.
Something Rafael can't do.
When it comes down to it his fitness record will never be good enough for a top side
Valencia has been excellent defensively, might be the best defensive RB in the league. Rarely ever get's beaten 1v1 and I've yet to ever see him look a physical duel or have teams target him for headers in FB areas, he isn't spectacular going forward but Rafael is average at best in that respect so Valencia seems like a pretty decent upgrade at this point and only likely to get better as he becomes more familiar with the role.
Rafael needs to start 3 to 4 matches from a purely business standpoint. If he plays well then his price goes up a bit.
I like him but it doesn't appear he has a future here.
I like him but it doesn't appear he has a future here.
Is it? I'd say no player has as little to do with our upturn in form as Antonio Valencia. I'm sure lots of people defended Rooney in midfield, doesn't mean it was good even when results worked out. His performances have been poor and he's been a sap on that side creatively.
I agree, although if you don't take risks now and again you can miss out. I'd say trying out Rafael would be on the low risk:high reward side of things.
The Leicester result is fairly conclusive proof that playing Rafael is a medium to high risk proposition. If we're up by three or four goals that changes things but as a starter, no way.