Hazard will be a big test next week.
Rafael vs Valencia Rightback Debate
- Thread starter MyOnlySolskjaer
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
No competition, Valencia wins easily
Hazard isn't someone to be trifled with. He is a real danger.
Anyways, I'm shocked there are people still questioning LvG's decision. LvG has given many interviews explaining his requirements. Stay in position. Keep the ball. Don't make unnecessary runs. Do these qualities fit Valencia or Rafael better? Why is it so hard to figure out?
Listen to LvG's comments on the two most changed players this season. It is always about how they listen to him and take in his advice. Especially Fellaini.
Look at their performances. Young, Fellaini have both done extremely well. Valencia has been solid and he has been doing very, very well linking up play with Herrera and Mata on the right flank with their little triangles.
And look at the results. We're still in third, only 1 point behind Arsenal, 4 points ahead of City and 8 points ahead of Liverpool (assuming they beat Newcastle). 6 wins on the trot having beaten City, Liverpool and Spurs.
Again. I ask. Why are people still questioning this? Is there something they know that LvG is too stupid or stubborn to realise on his own?
It's not about Rafael turning to trash. I always believe Rafael is a good footballer. It's about players adapting to the system and right now, Valencia is doing a better job of it probably because he has better discipline. Not only that, Valencia is also less likely to get carded, less likely to get injured as well as being stronger physically. To me, it's as simple as that.
I really hope that Rafael can adapt to the "philosophy" and avoid injuries next season. It'll save us a lot of money on buying a replacement. Unfortunately, on the evidence that we've seen so far, he still hasn't done enough.
Anyways, I'm shocked there are people still questioning LvG's decision. LvG has given many interviews explaining his requirements. Stay in position. Keep the ball. Don't make unnecessary runs. Do these qualities fit Valencia or Rafael better? Why is it so hard to figure out?
Listen to LvG's comments on the two most changed players this season. It is always about how they listen to him and take in his advice. Especially Fellaini.
Look at their performances. Young, Fellaini have both done extremely well. Valencia has been solid and he has been doing very, very well linking up play with Herrera and Mata on the right flank with their little triangles.
And look at the results. We're still in third, only 1 point behind Arsenal, 4 points ahead of City and 8 points ahead of Liverpool (assuming they beat Newcastle). 6 wins on the trot having beaten City, Liverpool and Spurs.
Again. I ask. Why are people still questioning this? Is there something they know that LvG is too stupid or stubborn to realise on his own?
It's not about Rafael turning to trash. I always believe Rafael is a good footballer. It's about players adapting to the system and right now, Valencia is doing a better job of it probably because he has better discipline. Not only that, Valencia is also less likely to get carded, less likely to get injured as well as being stronger physically. To me, it's as simple as that.
I really hope that Rafael can adapt to the "philosophy" and avoid injuries next season. It'll save us a lot of money on buying a replacement. Unfortunately, on the evidence that we've seen so far, he still hasn't done enough.
And I'm also shocked that there are people claiming they are vindicated that LvG made a mistake by benching Herrera. "Mistake after mistake this season." Really? Herrera was frozen out because he didn't stay in position. Now he does that more often and you can see there are less gaping holes caused by Herrera not tracking back these days. An example of this, IINM, the first goal Arsenal scored against us started when Herrera did not track back, leaving a gaping hole between the right flank and Carrick, allowing Sanchez acres of space to run into, forcing Valencia out of position to track his run and allowing Nacho Monreal to run in behind Smalling. Even Herrera himself said as much in his recent interviews.
He never realized it was a mistake,they started to listen and started doing what he told them to do.Think there are Herrera quotes regarding why he wasnt picked early on.
Truly amazing how his good performance now makes a lot of fans just go back to he is so much better than Rafael. All the credit to Valencia, I actually put him down as my man of the match but that takes nothing away from Rafael, it's good from Valencia, nothing to do with Rafael.
His physical attributes make up for his whole not-being-a-defender thing, exemplified today when he played Aguero onside for a two-on-one but made up for it by being really damned fast and strong.
(Okay, I admit I replied to this post just to suggest that your location should say, "In that one chapter of FoTR that you thought would never end.")
You think people's opinions have changed? Is not just the people who always felt Valencia earned his post speaking up and those who think he didn't staying quiet? That's usually the game by game pattern in threads like this.
Superb player and professional. The criticism made against him are the same you could level at any RB at times. From where I'm sat, he's done little wrong and I'd have no issues him playing there next season. People forget also it's not like he's had a Rio or Vidic next to him.
I think Valencia is doing a very good job as a RB currently. Rafael is not starting for a reason after all. We may think Rafael is better but Valencia is truly amazing in the last games. He anticipates much better the opponents' balls and uses his fitness to intercept. Going forward, he does link up well with Mata and Herrera.
I understand it's the normal reaction and the same giving him praise (deserved) will go back to slating him after a few backwards passes but I don't understand how a good performance from Valencia tells us anything about Rafael.
Obviously I'm a huge Rafael fan and would much rather him playing but am fully behind Valencia and he should see out the season at RB.
He was all over the place in the first half. All their attacks and first half goal came down our right side. However his pace did help us on a couple of occasions and he improved a lot in the second half. But I would still like to see a new RB or Rafael in that slot next season. No reason to change a winning combination at this stage though.
Goal aside, their best chance of the whole game was down our left side.
Of course, David Silva, their best player tends to drift left so we were always going to have more attacks down one side than the other. Which doesn't tell us anything about our own fullbacks.
Valencia was day dreaming and let Milner completely free for their goal while he was ambling back. Not having a go at him here but for the first 30 mins he was not solid and Milner was able to run off him a couple of times. He improved a lot in the second half though.
Milner was playing centrally as a number 10, not wide left so if anything he was Carrick's man, not Valencias.
Great game by AV again. You can always discuss which player might be better or has more potential. However I would not change anything in our current set-up as long as we play like this.
Then he should have tracked Silva who was playing wide left. Either Milner or Silva should have been tracked by Valencia depending on who started out wide. You cannot absolve him of his positioning and lack of tracking for the goal. It was a mistake by him.
You're just guessing now. Watch the goal again, Silva's run is nothing to do with Valencia. Herrera was tracking him from deep and then he just stopped and let Silva dart into space. If anything its Herrera's fault for not continuing to track Silva.
So Valencia was not supposed to mark the wide man? Look at it again, where Valencia is standing. He was in no man's land, marking or tracking thin air. I agree that Silva does make runs inside and it is difficult to track a player like him but Valencia did himself no favors.
It's like saying it was not Demichelles fault for the Mata goal when he charged towards Fellaini and left a grand canyon sized space behind him for Mata to exploit.
Smalling moves out to cover the man on the ball, and Valencia fills in the gap between him and Jones, which is precisely what he should be doing. What are you suggesting he should have done instead?
Covering would have meant him actually making sure he is marking someone. He was completely oblivious to what was happening and was caught ball watching.
Mark who exactly? There's literally no-one within 15 yards of him when he covers that space.
That was because he just ambled behind Smalling, who had gone to help him, and then Valencia just stood there. It's not like he went back into the penalty box to cover for Smalling. He just stood behind him.
There is simply nothing wrong with his positioning in this picture. Smalling moved out to cover Milner & he plugged the gap between the two centre backs, which is exactly what he should have done.
Plus he's not just ambling aimlessly, if you watch it again you'll actually see that he's paralleling Clichy's run, who runs around the outside. He follows his run in case he gets the ball from Milner.
Agree 100%. We go with the lineup that is currently working until it stops working, then make adjustments.
There is simply nothing wrong with his positioning in this picture. Smalling moved out to cover Milner & he plugged the gap between the two centre backs, which is exactly what he should have done.
Plus he's not just ambling aimlessly, if you watch it again you'll actually see that he's paralleling Clichy's run, who runs around the outside. He follows his run in case he gets the ball from Milner.
Beggars belief that anyone can single out Valencia as the main culprit in that goal. As that still illustrates perfectly, the issue here is that someone in midfield has let Silva get a run on them (Mata? Hererra? Can't tell who from that image) and it's his run from deep that ultimately cuts us open.
Smalling and Valencia's priority was preventing Milner and Clichy from getting to the byline and/or getting a cross in. Really not much they could have done to prevent such a clever little pass and unmarked run more centrally.
Anyway, it was a superb bit of football from City. Would have unlocked most teams. It's only because of the tedious fecking ongoing witch-hunt of Valencia at fullback that a goal of real quality like that could end up with all this scape-goating.
My bad, I said it was Herrera earlier but its actually Mata. He tracks Silva til he's about in line with the ref and then lets him go.
Going forwards, virtually all of our best play goes down the left side - despite the holy duo of Mata/Herrera operating on the right. If we use the cafs assumption that Mata and Herrera are all things to all people, then it stands to reason that the only reason we fail to create as much down the right flank is due to Valencia.
Consider that on the opposite side, we have the exact opposite of the cafs favoured pairing - Fellaini and Young, but that side is by far our strongest side.
Basically the above is saying that Valencia is a bit of a liability in attack.
Now regarding defence, Valencia is fairly solid, but he has played as winger for most of his career and it shows. Regarding the City goal that everyone is talking about - it was good play by City, but they were allowed too much space because Valencia and Smalling both moved towards the byline to stop the cross. Smalling being closest to the City player was the one who should have moved to the byline, whilst Valencia should have tracked the player cutting back inside.
@Pogue Mahone is right though that Mata's lack of defensive contribution was also a big factor in the goal.
Im not really interested in a Valencia witch hunt here, and at this stage of the season I think it would be a mistake to change a winning team. But I really am baffled that LVG didnt see fit to give Rafael a chance say, a couple of months ago. For him to literally not even get a sniff in (apart from 4 minutes against Spurs) is really surprising and I think we could have looked an even better team with Rafael linking up with Herrera/Mata on that side.
Consider that on the opposite side, we have the exact opposite of the cafs favoured pairing - Fellaini and Young, but that side is by far our strongest side.
Basically the above is saying that Valencia is a bit of a liability in attack.
Now regarding defence, Valencia is fairly solid, but he has played as winger for most of his career and it shows. Regarding the City goal that everyone is talking about - it was good play by City, but they were allowed too much space because Valencia and Smalling both moved towards the byline to stop the cross. Smalling being closest to the City player was the one who should have moved to the byline, whilst Valencia should have tracked the player cutting back inside.
@Pogue Mahone is right though that Mata's lack of defensive contribution was also a big factor in the goal.
Im not really interested in a Valencia witch hunt here, and at this stage of the season I think it would be a mistake to change a winning team. But I really am baffled that LVG didnt see fit to give Rafael a chance say, a couple of months ago. For him to literally not even get a sniff in (apart from 4 minutes against Spurs) is really surprising and I think we could have looked an even better team with Rafael linking up with Herrera/Mata on that side.
I don't get this all our attacks come from the left thing.
Yes that was the case v City, because that was quite clearly our game plan, but don't forget both goals v Pool came from the right?
Yes that was the case v City, because that was quite clearly our game plan, but don't forget both goals v Pool came from the right?
I would be interested in seeing the stats over the last month or two - but I think we have consistently looked more dangerous down the left, and that normally our chances created on the right tend to be down to some great linkup play between Mata and Herrera.
Maybe. We also built a beautiful chance from the right yesterday, Valencia's cross was a tad too short for Fellaini. Think he ended up fouling Zabaleta.
Aye I remember that one - but thats just it, the end product wasnt quite there from him [Valencia].
Are we watching the same goal? For one thing Valencia doesnt at any point go to the byline, I'm not clear what you mean by that. And Silva's doesn't cut back inside, he starts his run really late and makes a straight run from midfield where's he's being tracked by Mata. Its not Valencia's job to track Silva there, it's Mata's.
Valencia covers the space that Smalling leaves, also covers the (dummy) run around the outside that Clichy makes, and then Silva runs in behind Valencia to receive the ball. I fail to see how Valencia is culpable for any of that.
I might actually be thinking of a different point in the match, come to think of it. I definitely remember a City chance much like the one in the above screenshot, where Smalling was covering out wide, but both he and Valencia (who was behind him on the edge of the box) moved out towards the byline, allowing City to play the ball back inside to someone in acres of space.Sorry for the vagueness, I cant quite remember the incident perfectly.
I am pretty happy with TonyV at RB on current form. He is solid, reliable, strong and great with crosses on his day. Although I like Rafael, he has been reckless. Next season with we in CL and hopefully gunning for cup run, Rafael can get more games to push for a starter position. But as of now, keep TonyV at RB
Sorry for the vagueness, I cant quite remember the incident perfectly.
Fair enough. I may dig out a few highlights later since everyone's hot on the topic so I'll share it if I come across it.
I don't think it's quite that simple. We don't play with a very symmetrical formation. Young plays much wider than Mata, so when we attack down the left we create space out wide. On the opposite side of the pitch, we will be much more likely to move the ball inside and create in more central areas.
I do agree that Valencia lacks cutting edge these days but he compensates for that by creating a really solid platform which allow others to express themselves.
This is a no brainer at the moment..
We are doing well Tony hasn´t fecked up and is playing well so why change that?
If Rafael is willing to wait his turn he will get a shot at this again or he will be out this summer it´s that simple.
I like Rafael alot but lately Tony has been in fantastic form so I guess LVG has again showed us why he is the United gaffer and we managers of a squad in fantasy league!
We are doing well Tony hasn´t fecked up and is playing well so why change that?
If Rafael is willing to wait his turn he will get a shot at this again or he will be out this summer it´s that simple.
I like Rafael alot but lately Tony has been in fantastic form so I guess LVG has again showed us why he is the United gaffer and we managers of a squad in fantasy league!
You are correct regarding our asymmetric formation - our two attacking triangles work slightly differently. On the left, Young provides the width, Fellaini plays more centrally and Blind tends to operate deeper. On the right, its Valencia (the FB) providing width, Mata inside and Herrera deeper. Whatever the case, it suits most of the players and has gotten us some good results.
I just think that Rafael could happily do the job Valencia is doing now, but add a bit more to it - I think Rafael would absolutely flourish with Mata and Herrera as his partners in crime. I can understand that LVG might feel that those three together might be a bit unbalanced though - Mata doesnt offer much defensively, Herrera is more of an attacking midfielder than a defensive one, and Rafael obviously loves to bomb forwards. Valencia does provide more balance.
I would actually love to see Mata and Fellaini swap positions approximately.