Hazard, where does he rank among the best in the world

Sphaero said:
Is it really, though? There is no doubt that Hazard played three very good league seasons for Chelsea (being the best of the league last season), but we are talking about the absolute elite here and for that top performances in only the league are not enought, no matter how strong the league is.

In the end the most competive and meaningful competition in club football is still the Champions League. The biggest stage where the stakes are the highest.

I would not even disagree that Hazard has ablities/skills on a similar level as the likes of Neymar, Müller or Reus, but all the skills in the world don´t matter that much if you can´t use them well when it matters the most. To this day I wait for a crucial CL game of Chelsea, where he really steps up and makes the difference. A game like Reus had in 2014 in the return fixture vs. Real when he nearly carried a truly mediocre side to a sensation and outclassed everyone on the pitch (he had a few of those games but this was the one which stood out the most) or the many games where Müller was the difference maker for Bayern.

I find it hilarious that people in this thread get laughed at for suggesting that Müller is the better player of the two. Look at the list of his accomplishments at the age of 25 and he was vital in every single one of them for both club and country (and that as more than just as scorer, because his biggest contribution is arguably not even his end product but the space he creates for his teammates). Compared to that Hazard had so far an overall pretty underwhelming career with Belgium and vanished in too many crucial Chelsea games to put him in the same tier.

Hazard is still only 24 and has clearly the potential to become one of the best players of the world, but to be included amongst them he has to prove his worth first on every level.
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Cheers! Something that I mentioned many times in my previous posts.

Hazard is great, but to be considered among the best (or be in the same category as Muller; or even Reus), he has to do that in the biggest stage. And he hasn't done it yet. It is the reason why I also think that Aguero isn't in the same level as Neymar/Robben. He is individually as good as them and as talented, but unlike them he hasn't done it in the biggest stage yet.
 
Aldo said:
Front three my f*cking arse. You'd be watching some completely different sport if you think Hazard and Neymar operate in the same area. Ask the nerds to give you heat maps or some other sh*t.

Also I didn't know shooting ability is all what defines an attacking player? Neymar's not as creative as Hazard either but let's forget that.
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Are you TheShedEnd in disguise?

Like it or not, the football games are decided by goals. Hazard has a better all round play than most of the players, but his goal/assists are quite poor. As long as he doesn't improve on that, he won't be in the same category.

Obviously goals/assists aren't the only important thing, but to act like they are completely irrelevant cause Hazard just isn't god at it is daft.
 
Aldo said:
Do you know why? Because he's not a f*cking striker and it's not his job to score. Bale, Robben and Neymar are brilliant shooters, Hazard is not, his strengths lie elsewhere, judge him on them.
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Aldo said:
Front three my f*cking arse. You'd be watching some completely different sport if you think Hazard and Neymar operate in the same area. Ask the nerds to give you heat maps or some other sh*t.

Also I didn't know shooting ability is all what defines an attacking player? Neymar's not as creative as Hazard either but let's forget that.
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Aldo said:
They are playing in two f*cking different formations for a start, two different systems, two managers with completely different philosophies. How can you even think of putting them on the same pedestal like that?

It's been said a thousand times before in this thread that once a better outlet while the other's more creative and uses his ability more to open up space for others. Fair enough if you want to call Neymar better but what's the point of comparing them on one's strength and not the other?

For all Neymar's numbers, anyone who's watched him over the last season will tell you he's still wasteful and misses loads of open chances which is crazy given he's still scored 40 goals, but he's no machine in front of goal let me tell you that. Watching Messi and Ronaldo has made people forget that missing a chance is a normal thing in this sport.
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:lol:
 
Aldo said:
Robben at his best is far, far beyond any of these muppets being compared, don't bring him into this.
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He isn't the most consistent player around though.

Robben at his best is likely the third best player in the world. But I think that he isn't far ahead of Suarez/Neymar/Muller.

Nog imagine Robben with the consistency of Muller! That would be a player in Messi/Ronaldo bracket.
 
Aldo said:
They are playing in two f*cking different formations for a start, two different systems, two managers with completely different philosophies. How can you even think of putting them on the same pedestal like that?

It's been said a thousand times before in this thread that once a better outlet while the other's more creative and uses his ability more to open up space for others. Fair enough if you want to call Neymar better but what's the point of comparing them on one's strength and not the other?

For all Neymar's numbers, anyone who's watched him over the last season will tell you he's still wasteful and misses loads of open chances which is crazy given he's still scored 40 goals, but he's no machine in front of goal let me tell you that. Watching Messi and Ronaldo has made people forget that missing a chance is a normal thing in this sport.
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You mean... comparing them? Uh, welcome to this thread.

My point, incase you missed it the other times I said it (seems to be the case), is that Hazard is simply not good enough in terms of end product yet, albeit his finishing or his final ball or whatever, I don't give a toss if finishing isn't his strength, that means nothing, he needs to improve at it because he gets into the goalscoring positions and using it as not being his strength as an excuse for being so wasteful in front of goal is pretty weird logic. I could probably understand it if he wasn't constantly getting these chances and actually was more of a creator, as you and others say, although that doesn't really go very far towards explaining why he always gets far more goals than assists.
 
Hazard is hardly that good a playmaker as is being portrayed here. He isn't Messi or Ronaldhinio. He's neat and intelligent but he's not top class in this aspect. Either he becomes an top top playmaker or he ups his end product. Till then he's clearly behind the likes of Neymar, let alone Suarez, who IMO is the third best in the world.
 
Cina said:
You mean... comparing them? Uh, welcome to this thread.

My point, incase you missed it the other times I said it (seems to be the case), is that Hazard is simply not good enough in terms of end product yet, albeit his finishing or his final ball or whatever, I don't give a toss if finishing isn't his strength, that means nothing, he needs to improve at it because he gets into the goalscoring positions and using it as not being his strength as an excuse for being so wasteful in front of goal is pretty weird logic. I could probably understand it if he wasn't constantly getting these chances and actually was more of a creator, as you and others say, although that doesn't really go very far towards explaining why he always gets far more goals than assists.
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I don't know what to say.

He will always get into those positions, he's a great dribbler and his close control is one of the best in the game, like he did against Barca(?) in the pre season, there will always be times when he will fly past defenders and in front of goal, that doesn't mean he magically becomes a great scorer. Obviously he will take his game to another level if he can learn that but that doesn't mean he has to to impact a game and be a match winner, simple as.

I compared him to Pavel Nedved earlier, when did he have great stats? He won the Ballon D'or and took quality teams like defending European champs Madrid in 03 to the cleaners. Game isn't all about the numbers.
 
He's clearly an excellent player, probably in the top 3 in the league. Top 10 in the world in my book, but just about.
 
Aldo said:
No shit.

He's better at it than Neymar who he's being compared to.
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He isn't though. Not right now. I dare say if he was playing for a more expansive and less inhibited team, he might be looked at differently.
 
Donaldo said:
He isn't though. Not right now. I dare say if he was playing for a more expansive and less inhibited team, he might be looked at differently.
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That's what I said earlier, part of him not looking as effective as a few others is he plays under such a conservative manager. Give him full license and he can be better than he currently is. I had the fortune of watching him live a couple of times back when he was tearing it up with Lille, outstanding talent.
 
Aldo said:
I don't know what to say.

He will always get into those positions, he's a great dribbler and his close control is one of the best in the game, like he did against Barca(?) in the pre season, there will always be times when he will fly past defenders and in front of goal, that doesn't mean he magically becomes a great scorer. Obviously he will take his game to another level if he can learn that but that doesn't mean he has to to impact a game and be a match winner, simple as.

I compared him to Pavel Nedved earlier, when did he have great stats? He won the Ballon D'or and took quality teams like defending European champs Madrid in 03 to the cleaners. Game isn't all about the numbers.
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That's the entire point of what I'm saying though. I think he's great, absolutely, but he's overrated and if he wants to take his game to the level people seem to think he's at on here, he needs to improve his goalscoring. I don't see why he can't do it, he's proven he can finish very well at times (like the goal against us last season), he's just very erratic at times (like the miss against Arsenal at the weekend).
 
Cina said:
That's the entire point of what I'm saying though. I think he's great, absolutely, but he's overrated and if he wants to take his game to the level people seem to think he's at on here, he needs to improve his goalscoring. I don't see why he can't do it, he's proven he can finish very well at times (like the goal against us last season), he's just very erratic at times (like the miss against Arsenal at the weekend).
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And the reason I'm arguing the opposite is I don't see that his strength, his strengths lie in his brain, let him flourish with that.
 
Aldo said:
And the reason I'm arguing the opposite is I don't see that his strength, his strengths lie in his brain, let him flourish with that.
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By all means, he won't be a top 3-5 player though.
 
Aldo said:
Probably not for the stat obsessed generation who cannot understand things that cannot be quantified. God forbid if Iniesta is ever called world class..
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Except Iniesta would actually fit your argument of players who shouldn't be judged on goals because he absolutely is far more of a creator and rarely got into the positions Hazard constantly does get into.
 
Cina said:
Except Iniesta would actually fit your argument of players who shouldn't be judged on goals because he absolutely is far more of a creator and rarely got into the positions Hazard constantly does get into.
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But he never had end product? For a creative player who is constantly playing behind the deadliest striker in the world, where are his assists? How was he voted the 2nd best player in the world in 2010 Ballon D'or with 3!!! assists the whole season despite playing as an creative/attacking midfielder? You need more goals and assists to be rated top 3-5 in the world right??

Tut tut tut.
 
Aldo said:
No shit.

He's better at it than Neymar who he's being compared to.
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Clever of you to quote a part of a sentence. Also, lame and pointless.

He's better at it than Neymar but is far worse is other aspects so he needs to be a lot better at it. Simply better isn't enough.
 
Aldo said:
But he never had end product? For a creative player who is constantly playing behind the deadliest striker in the world, where are his assists? How was he voted the 2nd best player in the world in 2010 Ballon D'or with 3!!! assists the whole season despite playing as an creative/attacking midfielder? You need more goals and assists to be rated top 3-5 in the world right??

Tut tut tut.
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Why are you constantly twisting my words to try support your argument? Iniesta plays a very different game to Hazard, we both know this. I also never said you, in general, need more goals and assists to be a top 5 player, did I? I said Hazard does. Different rules for different players, cause they play different roles and positions.

Anyway, I'm done with this, I've made my point and we're just going in circles now.
 
Aldo said:
But he never had end product? For a creative player who is constantly playing behind the deadliest striker in the world, where are his assists? How was he voted the 2nd best player in the world in 2010 Ballon D'or with 3!!! assists the whole season despite playing as an creative/attacking midfielder? You need more goals and assists to be rated top 3-5 in the world right??

Tut tut tut.
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When you're not close to being as good as iniesta as a midfielder then you do.
 
Cina said:
Why are you constantly twisting my words to try support your argument? Iniesta plays a very different game to Hazard, we both know this. I also never said you, in general, need more goals and assists to be a top 5 player, did I? I said Hazard does. Different rules for different players, cause they play different roles and positions.

Anyway, I'm done with this, I've made my point and we're just going in circles now.
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Bingo.
 
Cina said:
Hazard needing to score more goals
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Back to square one really haha. If you think he can't improve his game or be rated as the best in the world without being a better scorer than he currently is then fair enough. It's a daft opinion to hold and one that was easily countered.
 
Aldo said:
Back to square one really haha. If you think he can't improve his game or be rated as the best in the world without being a better scorer than he currently is then fair enough. It's a daft opinion to hold and one that was easily countered.
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if he starts playing in a position where he isn't constantly getting goalscoring chances that he misses, and excels there, like Iniesta, or Xavi, then sure, he can be.

Easily countered? Get over yourself.
 
Top20 player without a doubt, but would most likely miss out my Top10. No Top5 or 3rd best player in the world, that's for sure :)
 
Rezyuz said:
Would love some of that drugs you are having
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It's fine mate. Just wait til one of them moves to the Premier League so you can see them regularly. The Champions League knockout stage should be known as 'Muller time' he's that effective in big games, moreso than Hazard has ever been.
 
"How good a player is" depends on a lot of things, including their tactical fit. We've all seen how not good Di María could be under van Gaal, and we are about to see how Benzema turns to shit under Benítez.

I was watching Chelsea-Barca the other day and couldn't help but wonder how different it would all be had those cnuts not won the CL. We would have Hazard, they wouldn't, it would significantly weaken them and improve us no end.

For the record, leaving aside the superhuman duo, as far as fitting into United is concerned this would be my top three if I won some fantasy lottery whereby I could pick and choose a reinforcement:

Someone said:
1-Suarez
2-Muller
3-Hazard
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Of course then there's, errr, exceptional circumstances which remove 1 from the list.
 
Cina said:
Did I say shooting ability is what defines an attacker? Nope, certainly it's important though. I wouldn't necessarily think it was important for Hazard if it wasn't a facet of his game, but it is, he gets into lots of goal-scoring opportunities and misses considerably more than others so absolutely he should be judged on it. He missed a sitter against Arsenal at the weekend, as I recall. Blasted it right over the bar.
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Cool story..

Shot conversion rates:

Ronaldo - 26.37%
Hazard - 25%

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/eden-hazard-vs-cristiano-ronaldo-6151123
 
Hazard's record for Belgium is appalling: 6 goals in 59 games. Compare it to Neymar's record: 44 goals in 65 games. A nice stat for those who think that Neymar is much more productive mainly because he plays with Messi and Suarez. Compare their performances in Brazil '14. The difference is huge.

Neymar's been much more influential in the big games as well: top scorer in the CL with Messi and Ronaldo. Hazard did nothing of notice in the CL.
 
Treble said:
Hazard's record for Belgium is appalling: 6 goals in 59 games. Compare it to Neymar's record: 44 goals in 65 games. A nice stat for those who think that Neymar is much more productive mainly because he plays with Messi and Suarez. Compare their performances in Brazil '14. The difference is huge.

Neymar's been much more influential in the big games as well: top scorer in the CL with Messi and Ronaldo. Hazard did nothing of notice in the CL.
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And that for 3 CL seasons in a row now. You've worded it perfectly IMO, Neymar has outshined Hazard heavily in his international career and also CL campaigns. Not to mention that his club stats also heavily outshine Hazard's club stats for 14/15.
 
Kentonio said:
Messi is the greatest of all time, but you can't just call stats 'meaningless' because you don't like them.
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I don't dislike the stats, I just find them funny. I find it hard to believe anyone can take them seriously as a measure of creativity. If you can watch both Messi and Hazard play and come to the conclusion that you can make a credible argument that Hazard is more creative then I don't really know what to say. Counting the number of times someone plays a pass to someone who shoots is a measure of something, sure, but it's not creativity. Otherwise Kevin Davies was one of the most creative players to play in the Premier League. Knock-downs and shots galore.
 
Muller being more decisive in the bigger games proves nothing as he's played for a team significantly better than anything Hazard has ever done. Chelsea have big matches in the Cl where they pretty much give hazard the ball and hope he can drag the team forward. Muller can stand up top, make intelligent runs and then hurt the opposition. Take Hazard out of chelsea and replace him with Muller and I promise you chelsea would be a mess.

He's a figo level player imo and perhaps needs a little push to become a dinho level player. In fact he pretty much needs a functioning attacking side besides him, and better decision making in the final third.
 
Hazard on Figo's level? When Figo's at Milan, maybe.
 
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