Juan Mata - Shall he be our #10?

Speak said:
I don't remember that midfield being particularly strong, powerful or dominant. Mikel, Ramires, Lampard, and probably someone I'm forgetting.
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Michael Essien? One of the most powerful and dominant midfielders to ever play in the Premier League, to be fair.

I'd certainly consider it an option, especially when we are playing teams that sit so deep, but it's crucial that Schneiderlin plays behind him with one of Carrick/Herrera/Schweinsteiger. With the intelligent movement and pace of Pedro, Depay and Rooney/Hernandez, I feel Mata would flourish as a #10. As the whole team is pushed further forward, his defensive and positional inadequacies become less important.
 
C'est Moi Cantona said:
I know it's unlikely but I'd love to see this given a go:

Depay-----------Rooney-----------Pedro
-----------Mata----------Herrera--------
---------------Schneiderlin--------------
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This looks exciting. I reckon if Wenger was United manager, this is how he'd line up that set of players, as he seems to favour two, fluid and adventurous midfielders ahead of a very defensive presence.

It wouldn't fall in line with the philosophy, but I think we would still win the possession battle against most sides, and create a great deal more chances than we did in pre-season.
 
No please; he's slow, gets shrugged off the ball easily; cant really dribble past players and carry the ball. Worst thing is that he really hesitates to play the difficult passes that unlock defences, while we all know that he can do that. He's a tidy player with great goalscoring ability and instinct, no playmaker.
 
worldinmotion66 said:
Michael Essien? One of the most powerful and dominant midfielders to ever play in the Premier League, to be fair.

I'd certainly consider it an option, especially when we are playing teams that sit so deep, but it's crucial that Schneiderlin plays behind him with one of Carrick/Herrera/Schweinsteiger. With the intelligent movement and pace of Pedro, Depay and Rooney/Hernandez, I feel Mata would flourish as a #10. As the whole team is pushed further forward, his defensive and positional inadequacies become less important.
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Essien was past it by then. Barely played.
 
Sammyjunn said:
No please; he's slow, gets shrugged off the ball easily; cant really dribble past players and carry the ball. Worst thing is that he really hesitates to play the difficult passes that unlock defences, while we all know that he can do that. He's a tidy player with great goalscoring ability and instinct, no playmaker.
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100% agree. It seems harsh when it's laid out like that, but its all true. Herrera trumps him every one of hese areas, and these are crucial in a slow possession system.

He's at his best when the game is stretched and he can get the ball forward, into space, without close contact. Often passing it on the break, running into the box and the receiving it again, before shooting or cutting it back.
 
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If we were playing counter attacking football, it would be easier for him to play in the hole. He would probably find more open spaces to exploit in the final third and, most importantly, he would have more chances to get on the ball while facing the goal. That's when he can be lethal, when he has the space and enough time on the ball in order to pick the early ambitious pass towards the forwards or look for a run in the box at the blind side of defenders so that he can avoid physical contact.

By utilizing him in the #10 role in our possession based tactics, we would be putting him directly in the most congested area of the pitch and we would be asking of him to be creative with his back to goal when he doesn't have the upper body strength to do it. One of his weaknesses is his lack of body strength and quick twist n' turn in his pocket to play in a compact space. He would also struggle to keep possession against more physical defensive midfielders. He's not at his best when he's being closed down and that's the reason why he either drops very deep and moves sideways to get on the ball or stays very high, like a second forward, instead of making himself an option in between the lines.

I think in van Gaal's system, he's better off on the wings operating as a wide forward. He can find more spaces there in the final third or spot dangerous runs, especially at the far post and score many goals. But it's also true that with our current 4-4-1-1 the wingers have more responsibilities in the build up process and their role in recycling possession is crucial. I doubt he'll ever feel comfortable with this set up, i believe he'd be better off as a wide forward in a 4-3-3 (point backwards).
 
TheRedDevil'sAdvocate said:
If we were playing counter attacking football, it would be easier for him to play in the hole. He would probably find more open spaces to exploit in the final third and, most importantly, he would have more chances to get on the ball while facing the goal. That's when he can be lethal, when he has the space and enough time on the ball in order to pick the early ambitious pass towards the forwards or look for a run in the box at the blind side of defenders so that he can avoid physical contact.

By utilizing him in the #10 role in our possession based tactics, we would be putting him directly in the most congested area of the pitch and we would be asking of him to be creative with his back to goal when he doesn't have the upper body strength to do it. One of his weaknesses is his lack of body strength and quick twist n' turn in his pocket to play in a compact space. He would also struggle to keep possession against more physical defensive midfielders. He's not at his best when he's being closed down and that's the reason why he either drops very deep and moves sideways to get on the ball or stays very high, like a second forward, instead of making himself an option in between the lines.

I think in van Gaal's system, he's better off on the wings operating as a wide forward. He can find more spaces there in the final third or spot dangerous runs, especially at the far post and score many goals. But it's also true that with our current 4-4-1-1 the wingers have more responsibilities in the build up process and their role in recycling possession is crucial. I doubt he'll ever feel comfortable with this set up, i believe he'd be better off as a wide forward in a 4-3-3 (point backwards).
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Good post. Completely agree. This why it's largely irrelevant how good the two behind him are; it still won't make Mata himself any stronger or more equipped to receive/hold/carry the ball under pressure.
 
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While LVG clearly wants to play a 4-3-3, I feel like the signings we've made have actually given us options for a very strong midfield diamond in a 4-4-2 which is something we've also played.

If we're going to use Depay as a forward with Rooney, Mata in behind in the hole seems like a good option
 
Santiago_KinderBueno said:
We dont play with an out and out number 10.

All the preseason crap from depay there was for him to adapt to play centrally when our wingers cut in. Mata needs no aid in this ofcourse.
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LVG said we'd keep playing the way we did in pre-season.
 
It's something I'd like to see more often, yes.

What Mata offers above all is guaranteed goals. His end product is frighteningly good. On the whole, though, I think we'd be a more balanced team with more of a conventional, more dynamic three man midfield. This is where Herrera and Schneiderlin enter the frame.

Either way, whether it be Mata at #10 with pace and goals out wide (which would get the best out of him), or the traditional three man midfield, both are very workable given the players at our disposal. Sadly, I think we'll seldom see neither.
 
I'd love to see Mata playing consistently in the hashtag 10 position for us. Memphis to the left and Adnan/Pedro to the right.
 
If he must play, play him only as a number 10. Preferably he'll be on the bench.
 
Pentame said:
Why? Who'd you rather play?
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As a winger anyone who's actually a winger and has an ounce of speed. As a number 10, Herrera. To a lesser extent Memphis. He's a bench player at best for me.
 
Looks like it is indeed a choice between Mata and Herrera for a starting spot assuming we get Pedro, really difficult choice but I'd be swayed to try Mata there first and see how it goes.
 
A player whose stats are comparable to the best players in the league and he is only a bench player apparently.

Sometimes I'm baffled by some of the things I see here.
 
Kag said:
It's something I'd like to see more often, yes.

What Mata offers above all is guaranteed goals. His end product is frighteningly good. On the whole, though, I think we'd be a more balanced team with more of a conventional, more dynamic three man midfield. This is where Herrera and Schneiderlin enter the frame.

Either way, whether it be Mata at #10 with pace and goals out wide (which would get the best out of him), or the traditional three man midfield, both are very workable given the players at our disposal. Sadly, I think we'll seldom see neither.
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I know. It hurts so much :(
 
I also don't understand how people can say Mata isn't "creative" enough for a no. 10 in a possession system but it's ok to play Depay there?
 
I think we have one better no10 at the club and that would be Rooney, however it doesn't look likely that we will sign a top no9 so if Rooney plays as striker then it needs to be Mata or Herrera as no10. Depay should be on the left where he is more dangerous.

I can however see why LVG refuses to use Mata as a no10 as he's limited in terms of his power and pace, his lockpicking capabilities can't be questioned but LVG clearly wants more from a no10 in terms of mobility and pace. Hes trying Depay there for now and who knows it could prove a masterstroke however I personally doubt it. I would have thought it will prove too much to ask from a player in a new league, playing in a new position.

We need to remember LVG has worked with Rivaldo, Muller, Riquelme and Litmanen as number 10s and maybe he just doesn't feel that Mata is in that top bracket. Possibly if we do manage to replace RVP then Rooney could play as his no10 and he can't be dropped citing a lack of power or pace. Plus we could then see Depay used on the left wing where I'd imagine he will stay for the next 5/6 years.
 
I don't think Mata does enough to play the number 10 role regularly. He is very efficient and a good finisher but far too many times he's just anonymous in games and plays the safe passes far too many times. He is still probably a better number 10 than Memphis but I would rather play a 4-3-3 and play to our strengths.
 
Against weaker opposition we could play:

Schneiderlin - Herrera/Schweinsteiger
Pedro - Mata - Depay
Rooney
​
No problem, would smash 14/19 teams.
 
No. I never understood the Mata signing. At United his finishing has been excellent and his pass completion rate amazing, until it dawns on you that he barely ever attempts a creative pass. Defensively he is at times comically inept, even basic tracking of his man seems beyond him, and has costs us points. The killer stat for me, is that Mata joined a team struggling to score goals, yet hasn't managed to make the slightest impact on our scoring rate, either under Moyes or LVG (41 goals scored when he was on the pitch during his 27 starts and 6 sub appearances, 21 when he wasn't). Given his age and experience, that reflects very poorly on him.

Januzaj, Herrera and Memphis, all look superior options for the role to me.
 
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For me, a front 3 of Depay - Rooney - Pedro, with Mata supporting just makes too much sense. Put Schweinsteiger/Carrick and Schneiderlin behind, and you're good to go. I would love to see this given a proper go. With time, I think that would be a lethal attack, one in which the weak link may well be Wayne Rooney (and who ever thought we'd be saying that 2 years ago?)
 
kundalini said:
No. I never understood the Mata signing. At United his finishing has been excellent and his pass completion rate amazing, until it dawns on you that he barely ever attempts a creative pass. Defensively he is at times comically inept, even basic tracking of his man seems beyond him, and has costs us points. The killer stat for me, is that Mata joined a team struggling to score goals, yet hasn't managed to make the slightest impact on our scoring rate, either under Moyes or LVG (41 goals scored when he was on the pitch during his 27 starts and 6 sub appearances, 21 when he wasn't). Given his age and experience, that reflects very poorly on him.

Januzaj, Herrera and Memphis, all look superior options for the role to me.
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Possibly Herrera (although that's still speculative,) but as of this moment it's ridiculous to suggest Januzaj is a better option. He was woeful last season, and while he has potential, he's never displayed the kind ceiling that Mata has in his time in England. As for Depay, LVG seems to like him there, but I'd prefer him on the wing, with Mata playing centrally.

I'm curious about when his defensive inadequacies have cost us points. Not saying you're wrong, but nothing springs to mind.
 
Pedro and Depay have made a name for themselves on the wings, so leaving them there and putting Mata into his favourite central role is a no-brainer. I have no idea how LVG sees it though, it's likely he'll still deploy Depay in the middle.
 
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kundalini said:
No. I never understood the Mata signing. At United his finishing has been excellent and his pass completion rate amazing, until it dawns on you that he barely ever attempts a creative pass. Defensively he is at times comically inept, even basic tracking of his man seems beyond him, and has costs us points. The killer stat for me, is that Mata joined a team struggling to score goals, yet hasn't managed to make the slightest impact on our scoring rate, either under Moyes or LVG (41 goals scored when he was on the pitch during his 27 starts and 6 sub appearances, 21 when he wasn't). Given his age and experience, that reflects very poorly on him.

Januzaj, Herrera and Memphis, all look superior options for the role to me.
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I really don't get it tbh.It seems as clear as day to me because Mata didn't do enough in the number 10 position is the reason why he was shifted to the wing.Now people want to repeat the same old story.Does it matter what he did at his previous clubs if he couldn't do it at United?Probably the same group of people that wanted to give Falcao another chance because of his past records.

Mata is a very likable player but if we have better options which I believe we do as you said, he should either play on the right or benched.
 
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rpitroda said:
A player whose stats are comparable to the best players in the league and he is only a bench player apparently.

Sometimes I'm baffled by some of the things I see here.
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you forgot the part where he only accumulated those stats because chelsea were so trash they made him look good. Even though they won the champions league, with him as a no.10.

they were still trash. PL Player of the year twice ? Means feck all he was lucky.
 
I think he should be and that people are ubderrating him centrally. He won Chelsea's player of the season twice, primarily operating centrally.

Sometimes managers don't fancy some players. I never really felt LVG was overly keen on ADM, maybe Mou didn't like Mata's style there, or what I imagine the real issue was that he liked Oscar and saw big potential with him as an a/m and mata doesn't play wide how he'd like.

But he can definitely play that position. Some argue that he's too slow/weak there but with options like Depay and probably Pedro to link with and better midfielders such as Schwein/Herrera then he'll be in a much better position to excel there then when he first came. His passing and awareness will make up for his lack of strength/pace for me.

Sometimes people have a go at him and say he's not creating but I always think to myself what runs is he not seeing that people want him to find? It's not like we've had players running inside from the wings or our strikers continually playing on the last shoulder. Most our players come to the ball, few run beyond it.

Now in Depay and likely Pedro we'll have players who want to run in to space, want to make a diagonal run in to the box and Mata is unquestionably the best player we have to find those runs for me.

He won't suit every game, could definitely see in the big games him moving wider, but I think we'd get much more from him centrally and much more from Depay wider than the other way around, both on their impact individually and to the team.
 
3rdCarter said:
you forgot the part where he only accumulated those stats because chelsea were so trash they made him look good. Even though they won the champions league, with him as a no.10.

they were still trash. PL Player of the year twice ? Means feck all he was lucky.
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16 goals and 20 assists, yep, the mark of a "lucky" and "trash" player.
 
crimsonife said:
Pedro and Depay have made a name for themselves on the wings, so leaving them there and putting Mata into his favourite central role is a no-brainer. I have no idea how LVG sees it though, it's likely he'll still deploy Depay I the middle.
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No one understands how LVG sees anything, maybe not even himself!
 
3rdCarter said:
you forgot the part where he only accumulated those stats because chelsea were so trash they made him look good. Even though they won the champions league, with him as a no.10.

they were still trash. PL Player of the year twice ? Means feck all he was lucky.
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People can't think outside the box, I guess. The exact same could be said of Bale.
Chelsea couldn't dominate teams (even the Champions league win was them defending and being dominated)
Save for the Champions league, where they essentially defended for their lives, they rarely showed any tactical sense. They played a completely different style of football, lacked balance, and gave him complete and utter freedom within this loose system.

The Champions league that every one harps on about, saw Mata go from Chelsea's most influential player down to Chelsea's fifth or sixth most influential player. He was was one of the more dispensible players within that cup run. About all he truly offered was set pieces, when it came to crunch time. Reading all these references to that flukey cup win, anyone would think he actually led Chelsea to winning the Champions league.

He didn't win Premier league player of the year, he won Chelsea's player of the year. And Chelsea were crap in the league those years, but as has often been the case with Chelsea, they knew how to grind out a cup run.

Somehow Mata still didn't find himself above Silva or Cazorla in the Spanish team, despite apparently being so good.
That backs up my idea that he's not great when the team are actually dominant. He's only great when the team is less dominant and give him freedom. Freedom that usually doesnt get given in the best teams. And Chelsea's Champions league fluke didnt/doesn't make them one of the best teams.
 
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Speak said:
People can't think outside the box, I guess. The exact same could be said of Bale.
Chelsea couldn't dominate teams (even the Champions league win was them defending and being dominated)
Save for the Champions league, where they essentially defended for their lives, they rarely showed any tactical sense. They played a completely different style of football, lacked balance, and gave him complete and utter freedom within this loose system.

The Champions league that every one harps on about saw Mata go from Chelsea's most influential player down to Chelsea's fifth or sixth most influential player. He was was one of the more dispensible players within that cup run. About all he truly offered was set pieces, when it came to crunch time. Reading all these references to that flukey cup win, anyone would think he actually led Chelsea to winning the Champions league.

He didn't win Premier league player of the year, he won Chelsea's player of the year. And Chelsea were crap in the league those years, but as has often been the case with Chelsea, they knew how to grind out a cup run.

Somehow Mata still didn't find himself above Silva or Cazorla in the Spanish team, despite apparently being so good.
That backs up my idea that he's not great when the team are actually dominant. He's only great when the team is less dominant and give him freedom. Freedom that usually doesnt get given in the best teams. And Chelsea's Champions league fluke didnt/doesn't make them one of the best teams.
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Because people have a different opinion than you, they "can't think outside of the box"?

Right.
 
khoazany said:
I really don't get it tbh.It seems as clear as day to me because Mata didn't do enough in the number 10 position is the reason why he was shifted to the wing.Now people want to repeat the same old story.Does it matter what he did at his previous clubs if he couldn't do it at United?Probably the same group of people that wanted to give Falcao another chance because of his past records.

Mata is a very likable player but if we have better options which I believe we do as you said, he should either play on the right or benched.
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So true. Seems like people have blocked out the part where Mata was dropped as a #10 because he wasn't doing enough only to flourish out wide.
 
rpitroda said:
Because people have a different opinion than you, they "can't think outside of the box"?

Right.
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Explain to me why I'm wrong then. All I've had so far is that Chelsea fluked the Champions league (without Mata being a key player) and that he won player of the year in a period where Chelsea were poor in the league.

So I'd love someone to give me proper reasons why my statements are incorrect.
People will give sarcastic comments related to my overall point, but wont actually address the points I've made.
 
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Speak said:
Explain to me why I'm wrong then. All ive had so far is that Chelsea fluked the Champions league (without Mata being a key player) and that he won player of the year in a period where Chelsea were poor in the league.

So I'd love someone to give me proper reasons why my statements are incorrect.
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Firstly, I don't inherently disagree with those statements.

However, I do disagree with your general opinions on Mata throughout this thread. For that is what they are, opinions. Not facts. The statistics show Mata is productive as a no.10. And I have repeatedly said he will not dictate games like Silva, however at the end of the day he scores goals and he gets assists which is pretty key for the no.10 position.

I don't have the time to go through the thread and pick out individual specifics you've said - if you want to take that as me not giving you a proper reason then fine.
 
Personally, I think Mata lacks presence. He was effective for Chelsea on the wing. I rather play Herrera there.
 
rpitroda said:
Firstly, I don't inherently disagree with those statements.

However, I do disagree with your general opinions on Mata throughout this thread. For that is what they are, opinions. Not facts. The statistics show Mata is productive as a no.10. And I have repeatedly said he will not dictate games like Silva, however at the end of the day he scores goals and he gets assists which is pretty key for the no.10 position.

I don't have the time to go through the thread and pick out individual specifics you've said - if you want to take that as me not giving you a proper reason then fine.
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I wasn't so much talking about you; more the poster that I initially quoted. Clearly referenced my opinion, but instead of showing me where I'm spouting nonsense, he just made a sarcastic comment.

I don't mind Mata, but I think that his Chelsea performances/stats will only be repeated if he joins a lesser team who don't look to dominate and keep possession as much, and can give him complete freedom, as well as allowance to not defend ultra-effectively.
 
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