Battlefield Calais: 'the swarm'

Eyepopper said:
I assume you didn't see the tweet by that Ukip knuckle dragger yesterday, blaming those kids 'greedy' parents for them washing up on that beach?
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That doesn't make bringing it up in here right.

I like to think it's obvious what decent, caring human beings think. At the same time, this subject isn't as black and white as "oh you must agree with UKip" just for having a different view. As I've said plenty on here, I think that sort of attitude is almost as poisonous.
 
Redlambs said:
That doesn't make bringing it up in here right.

I like to think it's obvious what decent, caring human beings think. At the same time, this subject isn't as black and white as "oh you must agree with UKip" just for having a different view. As I've said plenty on here, I think that sort of attitude is almost as poisonous.
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I think I brought UKIP into the conversation but it was in the context of the political impact the crisis would have on UK politics and the Brexit.
 
Eyepopper said:
Agreed, but thats not going to be sorted anytime soon.

This is the decades of foreign policy coming home to roost unfortunately, and there is no quick or easy fix.
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You carry on apologising all you wish. Foreign Policy has got feck all to do with this. These inter-Muslim wars have been raging for centuries, only held back or sponsored by genocidal Arab dictators.

You can't have it both ways - the West gets blamed for intervening or not intervening. Either way, IMO, a full scale military intervention is inevitable now.
 
Redlambs said:
That doesn't make bringing it up in here right.

I like to think it's obvious what decent, caring human beings think. At the same time, this subject isn't as black and white as "oh you must agree with UKip" just for having a different view. As I've said plenty on here, I think that sort of attitude is almost as poisonous.
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To be fair I don't think anyone is saying any of that.

If a public figure expresses an opinion on the matter it's fair game, and if there are parallels with some opinions expressed here I don't see an issue highlighting that.

The only argument I see being presented as black and white is 'oh they landed in X so should stay/be sent back there'.
 
Fearless said:
You carry on apologising all you wish. Foreign Policy has got feck all to do with this. These inter-Muslim wars have been raging for centuries, only held back or sponsored by genocidal Arab dictators.

You can't have it both ways - the West gets blamed for intervening or not intervening. Either way, IMO, a full scale military intervention is inevitable now.
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I'm not apologising for anything.

Foreign policy has nothing to do with it?

Okay, whatever you need to tell yourself.
 
In other news...

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Fearless said:
You carry on apologising all you wish. Foreign Policy has got feck all to do with this. These inter-Muslim wars have been raging for centuries, only held back or sponsored by genocidal Arab dictators.

You can't have it both ways - the West gets blamed for intervening or not intervening. Either way, IMO, a full scale military intervention is inevitable now.
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this. but some of it for good reason. democracy breeds some kind of guilt from turning away from the human drama taking place. plus we can see what's happening by clicking a button. this doesn't happen in other parts of the world,
 
Eyepopper said:
I'm not apologising for anything.

Foreign policy has nothing to do with it?

Okay, whatever you need to tell yourself.
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I think he is trying to say that do you really think the Middle East would be peaceful if Western intervention had never happened, considering the Sunni/Shia conflict within Islam?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I think he is trying to say that do you really think the Middle East would be peaceful if Western intervention had never happened, considering the Sunni/Shia conflict within Islam?
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Who knows, maybe, maybe they'd have wiped each other out and the ME would be a bed of roses, or maybe they'd still be tearing each other to shreds.

I don't see any validity in discussing the 'if's' really.

To say foreign policy has nothing to with it is stretching things a tad.

As for damned if they do / damned if they don't. Well there's a difference between dropping bombs and dropping care packages.
 
Eyepopper said:
To be fair I don't think anyone is saying any of that.

If a public figure expresses an opinion on the matter it's fair game, and if there are parallels with some opinions expressed here I don't see an issue highlighting that.

The only argument I see being presented as black and white is 'oh they landed in X so should stay/be sent back there'.
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I haven't seen UKip's response, nor do I care.

You response to that post by Red Defence isn't great though. Whilst I might not entirely agree with what he said, I detest the standard responses we see on here on a regular basis equating people to Ukip politicians or calling them racist for having a view from another angle.

As I've said before and will again, brushing off people's views that simply is a poisonous attitude. I believe that causes more problems than it solves and allows the real racists and shit like UKip to survive and thrive. That benefits none of us.
 
Eyepopper said:
Who knows, maybe, maybe they'd have wiped each other out and the ME would be a bed of roses, or maybe they'd still be tearing each other to shreds.

I don't see any validity in discussing the 'if's' really.

To say foreign policy has nothing to with it is stretching things a tad.

As for damned if they do / damned if they don't. Well there's a difference between dropping bombs and dropping care packages.
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Dropping bombs ends conflicts. Dropping aid prolongs them.
 
Redlambs said:
I haven't seen UKip's response, nor do I care.

You response to that post by Red Defence isn't great though. Whilst I might not entirely agree with what he said, I detest the standard responses we see on here on a regular basis equating people to Ukip politicians or calling them racist for having a view from another angle.

As I've said before and will again, brushing off people's views that simply is a poisonous attitude. I believe that causes more problems than it solves and allows the real racists and shit like UKip to survive and thrive. That benefits none of us.
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Well here's what the guy from UKip tweeted.

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and heres what Red Defence said.

We already know that most of them are not refugees .... there's nothing desperate about their situation. One of them actually refused to accept asylum when they landed in Europe and risked the life of his his 9-month pregnant wife and unborn child by dragging them across Europe purely because it fitted his agenda? What sort of person does something like that? Now they are talking of sending the women and children off on foot if they do not get their own way in Hungary. Don't you think it's sickening that they are being so cruel to their own wives and children?

Can't believe you have the audacity to call Cameron a "vindictive cnut" when people are behaving like that towards their own supposedly "desperate" families. Those poor wives and kids have had it bad enough as it is by being dragged around Europe unnecessarily.
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Worlds apart I guess.
 
We sit round talking bullshit, meanwhile

WARNING - not for the faint hearted, do not open if you are easily (or even not very easily) upset.
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But yeah, we definitely shouldn't do anything to help.
 
Eyepopper said:
Who knows, maybe, maybe they'd have wiped each other out and the ME would be a bed of roses, or maybe they'd still be tearing each other to shreds.

I don't see any validity in discussing the 'if's' really.

To say foreign policy has nothing to with it is stretching things a tad.

As for damned if they do / damned if they don't. Well there's a difference between dropping bombs and dropping care packages.
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Recent and historical Western intervention definitely had a hand in the mess. The recent interventions have created the conditions for the rise of ISIS for one. It would have been better if Saddam was still the Iraqi dictator, not for the tens of thousands of people he tortured and murdered or the tens millions oppressed by him, but at the moment it looks the lesser of two evils. Unquestionably so for the West.

Personally I don't see the big deal in taking 18000 genuine refugees, net migration was at 300K+ last year! I do think there is a legitimate long term question of the validity, or simply the desirability of open borders and mass economic migration.
 
Eyepopper said:
We sit round talking bullshit, meanwhile

WARNING - not for the faint hearted, do not open if you are easily (or even not very easily) upset.

But yeah, we definitely shouldn't do anything to help.
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looks like the kurds in sadam's terrored times.
 
Eyepopper said:
Which was, in part, used as justification for intervention wasn't it?
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nothing like terror to perpetuate hatred - human nature at it's worst. i always thought it was the only good reason for intervention (invasion really) the rest was/is bullshit. the whole "kuwait liberation" thing was bullshit.
 
Really don't know what to say about this refugee crisis, the whole of Europe is stuck between a rock and a hard place.
 
Fearless said:
I don't see Hamas firing thousands of rockets anytime soon. Do you?
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I'm sure they could if they wanted to. You think imprisoning millions in the Gaza strip is peace? You think your treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank is the actions of a country not in conflict?
 
I think it's pathetic that it took a single picture of a dead toddler lying face down on the beach to get leaders across Europe to start taking migrants from the Middle East and Africa seriously. Overloaded boats have been drowning in the Mediterranean for years. Italy has received the brunt of the flack for "not doing more", but anything that seems like amnesty for all who reach the shore would result in a flood of genuine refugees as well as those who would rather go abroad, and I'm not sure the EU and it's individual states are ready for the results. It also kind of blows the whole Schengen concept out of the water.

I also believe that, crass as the UKIP politician was, it is fair to question the motives of migrants who travel thousands of miles across fairly stable countries just to get to their preferred destination.

That being said, is there any evidence that huge amounts of immigrants places more strain on public services and makes job hunting harder for the indigenous population? I'm not sure. The social dynamics cannot be ignored; it's expected that a lot of people aren't gonna be cool with it.
 
Mozza said:
I'm sure they could if they wanted to. You think imprisoning millions in the Gaza strip is peace? You think your treatment of Palestinians in the West Bank is the actions of a country not in conflict?
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More containment than conflict. I think we can both agree that if Israel was run by any number of Arab dictators there wouldn't be any Palestinians or they too would be getting on boats to Europe.
 
adexkola said:
I also believe that, crass as the UKIP politician was, it is fair to question the motives of migrants who travel thousands of miles across fairly stable countries just to get to their preferred destination.

That being said, is there any evidence that huge amounts of immigrants places more strain on public services and makes job hunting harder for the indigenous population? I'm not sure. The social dynamics cannot be ignored; it's expected that a lot of people aren't gonna be cool with it.
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None of this is racist - the classic left wing attempt at actually shutting down conversation. Nevertheless there is a gathering storm re Muslim (un)integration throughout Europe - way before this crisis. This isn't going to end well.
 
Fearless said:
More containment than conflict. I think we can both agree that if Israel was run by any number of Arab dictators there wouldn't be any Palestinians or they too would be getting on boats to Europe.
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No, it's a conflict, just blowing hotter and colder over time

It could be like Dubai
 
Fearless said:
None of this is racist - the classic left wing attempt at actually shutting down conversation. Nevertheless there is a gathering storm re Muslim (un)integration throughout Europe - way before this crisis. This isn't going to end well.
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It hasn't been well. Look at France. Then again, isolating migrants in ghettos outside of Paris and Marseille for decades was always going to end up with a significant proportion of the population disconnected from the nation, and fertile ground for strife and terrorism.

I don't think they are incapable of integrating... The US has a sizeable Muslim population... About 1%. I can't say they are distinctly prominent and separate.
 
I find it quite shocking that the refugees are happy to come to Germany and the UK, whilst not staying in already safe places and seeking asylum there. I dont know, tons of them are young men and all going to Western European countries is not an option. I just find it a bit ridiculous when you hear things like i d rather go back to Syria than stay in Hungary.
 
izec said:
I find it quite shocking that the refugees are happy to come to Germany and the UK, whilst not staying in already safe places and seeking asylum there. I dont know, tons of them are young men and all going to Western European countries is not an option. I just find it a bit ridiculous when you hear things like i d rather go back to Syria than stay in Hungary.
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I mean, it's understandable. I'd rather have the BMW than a Mazda. No offense to Mazda and Hungary. At the same time, they're not in a position to be that selective.

The recent exchange seems harsh on migrants, but you'd hope that the people in power could shelf emotion for a moment and discuss the actual pros and cons.
 
Eyepopper said:
Show me the difference between the 2 opinions.
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One was being glib about the death of a child, the other did nothing of the sort. Try to tell @Red Defence (who's post I cat find much fault with and I voted for the fecking greens) why he's wrong rather than just accusing him of being like those nasty blimin' UKIP facists
 
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