Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Bury Red said:
Not until kick off Marcher.

Afraid I've just never bought into the great capitalist myth pedaled by Thatcher and every British politician since, this whole ethos that everyone should aspire to own their own home, work in a white collar service industry and not give a damn about their fellow man has been bought wholesale by the UK population and whilst we might kid ourselves that we've never had it so good with our widescreen TVs, high speed broadband, smart phones and tablets we've steadily slid down the global rankings in terms of practically every measure. From the likes of GDP, median income, trade deficit, productivity and the things the right supposedly care about to education, health and the number of people living in poverty which the left supposedly care about. Our infrastructure is crumbling, our transport system at a grinding halt much of the time, our industry is dead and we've finally tipped the scales to the point where the current generation will fare better than their offspring in terms of lifespan, prosperity and security.
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That's beside the point. The point is that the last 10 weeks have shown that Jeremy Corybyn couldnt organise a child's birthday party, never mind the country. Your diagnosis of the country's problems may well be true, but I'd be terrified at the idea of Corbyn being the man to put it right. Even after this short time, Corbyn's shown himself to be the most incompetent and inappropriate leader of the Labour Party in its history. A politician cocking up the economy or our public services while trying to do good helps no more people than a politician cocking up the economy or our public services in the interest of personal gain.

Positive values have to be matched by the leadership skills, sound judgment and political nous needed to make good ideas a reality. Corbyn's shown himself to be totally lacking in this regard.
 
bishblaize said:
That's beside the point. The point is that the last 10 weeks have shown that Jeremy Corybyn couldnt organise a child's birthday party, never mind the country. Your diagnosis of the country's problems may well be true, but I'd be terrified at the idea of Corbyn being the man to put it right. Even after this short time, Corbyn's shown himself to be the most incompetent and inappropriate leader of the Labour Party in its history. A politician cocking up the economy or our public services while trying to do good helps no more people than a politician cocking up the economy or our public services in the interest of personal gain.

Positive values have to be matched by the leadership skills, sound judgment and political nous needed to make good ideas a reality. Corbyn's shown himself to be totally lacking in this regard.
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When the children at the party, a party he was democratically elected to run by its' membership, are throwing the jelly and ice-cream and throwing tantrums the before he even arrived organisation was never likely to be possible. He hasn't been asked to run the country and given the mess the children in his party have caused he's extremely unlikely to ever be asked as I said in my earlier post.

I've not seen anything that bad in his few public or political acts thus far, only the attempts by the media to smear every action and gesture he has made. He's made a few ill considered appointments to his shadow cabinet and his advisors but given the opprobrium heaped on him by the PLP he's hardly been spoilt for choice and I've yet to see any appointment as catastrophically ill judged as Andy Coulson yet that barely caused Cameron to break stride. Given his past with CND and the fact he is a man of principal, it was always going to be difficult for him to deal with the military at a time when we are mired in numerous ill advised conflicts but frankly I'd far rather have a man of principal at the helm who would hold back from plunging us into these ridiculous inextricable situations than the idiots we have previously entrusted with the position who have gone off half cocked on the basis of a tissue of lies and misinformation. As for the leader of the armed forces speaking out against a democratically elected party leader, where the feck are we living Great Britain or Grenada?

I'm not claiming Corbyn has covered himself in glory, is a powerful orator or looks like becoming a marvelous leader but the mutiny from his own party before he was even elected, the savaging and lies from the media and the threatened military coup from military chiefs if he gains power are all far more worrying to me than anything Jeremy has or hasn't done to date.
 
Bury Red said:
When the children at the party, a party he was democratically elected to run by its' membership, are throwing the jelly and ice-cream and throwing tantrums the before he even arrived organisation was never likely to be possible. He hasn't been asked to run the country and given the mess the children in his party have caused he's extremely unlikely to ever be asked as I said in my earlier post.

I've not seen anything that bad in his few public or political acts thus far, only the attempts by the media to smear every action and gesture he has made. He's made a few ill considered appointments to his shadow cabinet and his advisors but given the opprobrium heaped on him by the PLP he's hardly been spoilt for choice and I've yet to see any appointment as catastrophically ill judged as Andy Coulson yet that barely caused Cameron to break stride. Given his past with CND and the fact he is a man of principal, it was always going to be difficult for him to deal with the military at a time when we are mired in numerous ill advised conflicts but frankly I'd far rather have a man of principal at the helm who would hold back from plunging us into these ridiculous inextricable situations than the idiots we have previously entrusted with the position who have gone off half cocked on the basis of a tissue of lies and misinformation. As for the leader of the armed forces speaking out against a democratically elected party leader, where the feck are we living Great Britain or Grenada?

I'm not claiming Corbyn has covered himself in glory, is a powerful orator or looks like becoming a marvelous leader but the mutiny from his own party before he was even elected, the savaging and lies from the media and the threatened military coup from military chiefs if he gains power are all far more worrying to me than anything Jeremy has or hasn't done to date.
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What you're basically saying is this - we should judge Corbyn only on the easy bits of the job, not the difficult bits.
 
bishblaize said:
What you're basically saying is this - we should judge Corbyn only on the easy bits of the job, not the difficult bits.
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I'll judge those who have made it impossible for him to do his job first. He doesn't inspire any great confidence in me either but the trashing he has and is receiving on a daily basis is sickening. If it makes the Labour party unelectable for the forseeable future then they will have brought it on themselves, although I suspect every one of the Blairite shills will jump ship to the Tories or Libs without batting an eyelid as they're all professional politicians first and foremost.

Long term for Labour it might allow them to return to the party of the working class that it was always supposed to be rather than some slick PR machine looking to appeal to Murdoch's media puppetmasters and hopefully, in time, some politics of conviction will return to the party and allow them to challenge for power again.
 
Everyone in the UK should vote Corbyn / Labour in next election even if its just to see what happens. With the Tories you know what you will get and no one seems to be happy with that. What is there to lose?
 
Bury Red said:
Sadly I don't think it's in Corbyn's nature to speak loudly enough to drown out the cacophony of media and PLP voices misrepresenting his every word. He's not said or done anything that should invite the opprobrium received but sadly people are so inclined to accept the soundbites these days that he has little chance.



Given the chance, I see no reason why he could not run the country and I know he'd be a better leader for the majority of the population than any of the Tories or Blairites. Sadly, he will never be given that chance by his own party, let alone by the electorate.
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Interesting view
 
Bury Red said:
I'll judge those who have made it impossible for him to do his job first. He doesn't inspire any great confidence in me either but the trashing he has and is receiving on a daily basis is sickening. If it makes the Labour party unelectable for the forseeable future then they will have brought it on themselves, although I suspect every one of the Blairite shills will jump ship to the Tories or Libs without batting an eyelid as they're all professional politicians first and foremost.

Long term for Labour it might allow them to return to the party of the working class that it was always supposed to be rather than some slick PR machine looking to appeal to Murdoch's media puppetmasters and hopefully, in time, some politics of conviction will return to the party and allow them to challenge for power again.
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The problem is that the majority of people nowadays don't consider themselves to be working class anymore and such a party could never gain power.
 
sun_tzu said:
Security, jobs and money spring to mind
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Like we've had an abundance of any of those these last 15 years.

  • Not leaping headlong into any military conflict on the say so of the hawks would do more to increase security than further losses of our civil liberties will ever achieve.
  • Supporting our remaining industry rather than inviting the Chinese over to do it for us and helping to rebuild our manufacturing, infrastructure and research would go a long way to improving the job situation.
  • I'm sure we could afford a bit more on health and education if we got those big corporations the Tories love so much to shell out the taxes they have been hiding. If they bugger off, so what, more chance for British businesses and jobs.
 
Stanley Road said:
Everyone in the UK should vote Corbyn / Labour in next election even if its just to see what happens. With the Tories you know what you will get and no one seems to be happy with that. What is there to lose?
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Yeah let's do that, what could possibly go wrong? Then when you're speaking to the hundreds of thousands who lost their job when the economy goes tits up, you can always comfort them with the thought that we were just seeing what happens.
 
712 said:
The problem is that the majority of people nowadays don't consider themselves to be working class anymore and such a party could never gain power.
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I doubt I'd be considered working class despite my roots, doesn't mean I don't understand that our society cannot function if it is not strong from the bottom up and doesn't mean that even in upper management we don't see and understand the pain of bankruptcies, receiverships and redundancies. We've been conned into climbing the class ladder for decades by people from the Bullingdon club who barely consider us the same species as them, let alone consider we will ever join their class and by doing so we have seen the backbone of our country weakened and crippled and put ourselves in the position I was ranting about at the bottom of the previous page where our kids are now the first generation who will fare worse than we will.

Maybe it's too soon for people to remember who they are, where they came from and what once made this country strong, but if we can't steer it back onto the right track now then it will be wrenched back in the future by an even further disenfranchised youth.
 
Bury Red said:
I'll judge those who have made it impossible for him to do his job first. He doesn't inspire any great confidence in me either but the trashing he has and is receiving on a daily basis is sickening. If it makes the Labour party unelectable for the forseeable future then they will have brought it on themselves, although I suspect every one of the Blairite shills will jump ship to the Tories or Libs without batting an eyelid as they're all professional politicians first and foremost.

Long term for Labour it might allow them to return to the party of the working class that it was always supposed to be rather than some slick PR machine looking to appeal to Murdoch's media puppetmasters and hopefully, in time, some politics of conviction will return to the party and allow them to challenge for power again.
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It's not impossible, it's just impossible for him because he's the wrong person for the job. Uniting and leading the PLP, handling the media and getting out your message is part of the job. May as well stick him up front for United and blame the opposition defenders for making it impossible for him from the start.

Anyway the emerging picture in oldham west suggests that the idea of Corbyn somehow appealing to the working classes is wishful thinking.
 
Nice analogy, but it's more like sticking him up front for United and then blaming him when his own players refuse to pass the ball to him and tackle him whenever he gets close to retrieving it for himself.

I've said elsewhere that the media have done a remarkable job in allowing the sort of bile Enoch Powell used to come out with to become commonplace in the papers and on the news, it's not the Liberals or Tories that the working classes will desert Labour for in Oldham and UKIP are a symptom of so much that is truly wrong and evil in British society today.
 
Bury Red said:
I doubt I'd be considered working class despite my roots, doesn't mean I don't understand that our society cannot function if it is not strong from the bottom up and doesn't mean that even in upper management we don't see and understand the pain of bankruptcies, receiverships and redundancies. We've been conned into climbing the class ladder for decades by people from the Bullingdon club who barely consider us the same species as them, let alone consider we will ever join their class and by doing so we have seen the backbone of our country weakened and crippled and put ourselves in the position I was ranting about at the bottom of the previous page where our kids are now the first generation who will fare worse than we will.

Maybe it's too soon for people to remember who they are, where they came from and what once made this country strong, but if we can't steer it back onto the right track now then it will be wrenched back in the future by an even further disenfranchised youth.
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I'm right with you Bury, I just think the left needs to put it's case forward in a modern way, as the working class stuff is just an immediate turn-off for the majority nowadays. As for the substance of your posts, absolutely brilliant, what's held this country back is a complete absence of long-term planning. The tories have made the very concept dirty and everything they do is short-term only.
 
Bury Red said:
Nice analogy, but it's more like sticking him up front for United and then blaming him when his own players refuse to pass the ball to him and tackle him whenever he gets close to retrieving it for himself.

I've said elsewhere that the media have done a remarkable job in allowing the sort of bile Enoch Powell used to come out with to become commonplace in the papers and on the news, it's not the Liberals or Tories that the working classes will desert Labour for in Oldham and UKIP are a symptom of so much that is truly wrong and evil in British society today.
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But they're still deserting him, and they still have not a good word to say about him. The campaign up there has basically had to avoid talking about him at all costs he's so toxic.
 
Ubik said:
But they're still deserting him, and they still have not a good word to say about him. The campaign up there has basically had to avoid talking about him at all costs he's so toxic.
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But that toxicity is not due to anything he has said now, it's due to the media and even people within his own party misquoting things he has said in the past and choosing to lift snippets such as ""Osama Bin Laden's death was a tragedy" out of their true context about the tragedy of the whole Middle Eastern mess and preferring to seek information and justice by trying the head of a terrorist organisation rather than just seeking revenge in an assassination mission. The great disappointment from Corbyn so far has been that he has meekly stood by and allowed comments like this to be misrepresented where a political firebrand like Tony Benn would have made his point doubly clear while calling out the lies Murdoch and his rags print.

I truly hate what our media has become and what passes for journalism these days and am saddened that the vast majority of our population, my father included, lack the critical judgement to make their own mind up on important issues instead choosing to follow the media's lead.
 
Bury Red said:
But that toxicity is not due to anything he has said now, it's due to the media and even people within his own party misquoting things he has said in the past and choosing to lift snippets such as ""Osama Bin Laden's death was a tragedy" out of their true context about the tragedy of the whole Middle Eastern mess and preferring to seek information and justice by trying the head of a terrorist organisation rather than just seeking revenge in an assassination mission. The great disappointment from Corbyn so far has been that he has meekly stood by and allowed comments like this to be misrepresented where a political firebrand like Tony Benn would have made his point doubly clear while calling out the lies Murdoch and his rags print.

I truly hate what our media has become and what passes for journalism these days and am saddened that the vast majority of our population, my father included, lack the critical judgement to make their own mind up on important issues instead choosing to follow the media's lead.
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To be honest I think that's just the usual old disrespectful "I'm right, I wish everyone else wasn't so stupid" line that we've always got from the hard left. If people disagree, it's because they're puppets of the media.
 
Ubik said:
To be honest I think that's just the usual old disrespectful "I'm right, I wish everyone else wasn't so stupid" line that we've always got from the hard left. If people disagree, it's because they're puppets of the media.
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OK, please explain to me why you think Jeremy Corbyn is so toxic? What has he said or done that deserves the degree of criticism that he regularly receives?
 
Ubik said:
To be honest I think that's just the usual old disrespectful "I'm right, I wish everyone else wasn't so stupid" line that we've always got from the hard left. If people disagree, it's because they're puppets of the media.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

.I remember hearing some mind numbing shite during the last election, a couple of highlights(Well lowlights)

.One man the reason he didn't vote Labour was because he didn't want Nicola Sturgeon running the country.

.Another said the reason he voted UKIP was to stop all the immigrants coming over from the English channel.

.Tulip Siddiq(Labour MP) said when she went knocking on doors a young black women said to her ''there's too many immigrants in the country so I'm not going to be voting Labour'' when Tuilp said to the women what about you, didn't you come here many years ago and the women replied ''it's different I work hard and I don't claim benefits, it's different''

While I do agree with your point, we really can't forget just how fecking stupid some people are in this country.
 
bishblaize said:
That's beside the point. The point is that the last 10 weeks have shown that Jeremy Corybyn couldnt organise a child's birthday party, never mind the country. Your diagnosis of the country's problems may well be true, but I'd be terrified at the idea of Corbyn being the man to put it right. Even after this short time, Corbyn's shown himself to be the most incompetent and inappropriate leader of the Labour Party in its history. A politician cocking up the economy or our public services while trying to do good helps no more people than a politician cocking up the economy or our public services in the interest of personal gain.

Positive values have to be matched by the leadership skills, sound judgment and political nous needed to make good ideas a reality. Corbyn's shown himself to be totally lacking in this regard.
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Makes perfect sense and I don't see the country in as bad a state as BR does but one thing for sure is that it would be a whole lot worse with a leader from the dark ages inside number 10.
 
I'm not sure you can accuse someone who's not devoted to the queen and warmongering as being from the dark ages. You can accuse him of being stuck in the 60s, if you want, but not the dark ages.
 
M4lDTfH.jpg
 
Bury Red said:
OK, please explain to me why you think Jeremy Corbyn is so toxic? What has he said or done that deserves the degree of criticism that he regularly receives?
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I hugely question his judgement for one thing, from appointments like John McDonnell and Andrew Fisher to the way he's handled the division over Syria, it's been a strange mix of incompetence and passive aggression towards the rest of the party. For someone that is bidding to be Prime Minister, this is a severe flaw and one not invented by the media. That elements of the PLP are equally aggressive back to him is true, but given many of them will remember back to the 1980s and how close Labour came to ceasing to exist as a party, I can at least understand their motivation. To the people of Oldham West, I imagine the toxicity derives from his statements on security issues and immigration (ironically, he'd more than likely have a better standing there if he stuck to his true anti-EU position).
Sweet Square said:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...t-nearly-everything-survey-shows-8697821.html

.I remember hearing some mind numbing shite during the last election, a couple of highlights(Well lowlights)

.One man the reason he didn't vote Labour was because he didn't want Nicola Sturgeon running the country.

.Another said the reason he voted UKIP was to stop all the immigrants coming over from the English channel.

.Tulip Siddiq(Labour MP) said when she went knocking on doors a young black women said to her ''there's too many immigrants in the country so I'm not going to be voting Labour'' when Tuilp said to the women what about you, didn't you come here many years ago and the women replied ''it's different I work hard and I don't claim benefits, it's different''

While I do agree with your point, we really can't forget just how fecking stupid some people are in this country.
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Indeed, but you can find stupid people supporting just about any argument. I see plenty of mind numbingly dumb supporters of Corbyn as well but I also see, on here for instance, plenty that are switched on and aware of the issues, I just tend to fundamentally disagree on the prescription. Attacking your opponents as being dumb is a quick way to lose the argument (as happened to those who opposed Corbyn during the leadership election, including myself, who thought it was a given that he was unelectable and expected people to just go along with it. What was really needed was an argument against what he was saying, which I hope they're busy developing right now.)
 
Whenever I go back to the uk I feel like I have gone back in time. I think living abroad helps you see the shit things back home.
 
Does data even influence people's thinking any more?

Labour is losing touch with public opinion, research suggests

YouGov data shows how Jeremy Corbyn’s unpopularity as leader and the changing profile of Labour voters could make the party unelectable

Jeremy Corbyn is seen as an unpopular leader across almost all demographic groups and leads a party whose voters are increasingly out of step with majority opinion in the country.

Since the election, Labour has attracted voters from two main sources: the Lib Dems and the Greens, many of whom hold views on immigration, defence, welfare and patriotism that are at odds with public opinion. At the same time, Labour has retained only two-thirds of its own voters, according to a YouGov poll I am releasing on Monday.

The voters who have deserted the party since May hold views reflecting public opinion. The result is that the Labour vote is now composed of staunch loyalists and recent converts; a base that holds positions on immigration, defence, welfare and patriotism which render the party unrepresentative and unelectable.

...
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http://www.theguardian.com/politics...h-suggests?CMP=twt_a-politics_b-gdnukpolitics
 
Stanley Road said:
Whenever I go back to the uk I feel like I have gone back in time.
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That's because nothing truly fundamental ever changes in Britain except through 'forced' circumstances or expediency.
 
For regular readers of the Guardian, their figures will be a surprise; in reality, it seems like every day there's an article along the lines of 'Corbyn is Crap and should be replaced by Adele'.
 
McDonnell speaks about the threat from UKIP in Oldham:
Addressing an event in Oldham West on Saturday evening hosted by Momentum – the hard-Left group created from Mr Corbyn’s leadership campaign – Mr McDonnell launched a counter-attack on Ukip’s political stance.

“We can not allow what I think is an evil force within our society – that divides society often on the basis of race, often on the basis on some of the crudest policies that you can imagine any political party advocating,” he told the event according to The Spectator magazine.

“We cannot allow them to get any from of toehold within our political system and that’s why it’s about defeating them but more importantly, defeating them — a clear contrast in terms of a sincere, local committed socialist candidate.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...as-Oldham-West-by-election-race-tightens.html
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Sweet Square said:
Tulip Siddiq(Labour MP) said when she went knocking on doors a young black women said to her ''there's too many immigrants in the country so I'm not going to be voting Labour'' when Tuilp said to the women what about you, didn't you come here many years ago and the women replied ''it's different I work hard and I don't claim benefits, it's different''
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Is everyone else here perfectly happy with that scenario? Assuming that the chronology of events described is accurate, the conduct of the MP verges on the discriminatory itself.


Stanley Road said:
Whenever I go back to the uk I feel like I have gone back in time. I think living abroad helps you see the shit things back home.
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Any aspect to British way of life in particular?
 
De Selby said:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2015/11/26/jeremy-corbyn-media-coverage_n_8653886.html
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In the days after he was selected, Corbyn was criticised for his controversial shadow cabinet appointments, policies that were at odds with the views of many of the party's leading figures, his decision not to sing the national anthem and his poor relationship with the media after pulling out of an interview on the Andrew Marr show.
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The national anthem aside, which would've been a storm in a teacup under normal conditions, why should the other instances have been above criticism?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Is everyone else here perfectly happy with that scenario? Assuming that the chronology of events described is accurate, the conduct of the MP verges on the discriminatory itself.
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It sounds like one of those greys tbh were she can getaway with it because she is Asian whereas a white MP would've been pilloried for it.
 
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