Name the top team that is setting the bench mark? Oh yes Leicester city, no one is upping their game apart from Leicester, and if VG does not win the PL he has utterly failed. I don't think it's much of a challenge to win the league title, it's not like we have to deal with a Barcelona, or the old Chelsea. The league is there to be won, and VG cannot even figure out these midtable to bottom teams after the time and money he has been given
Louis Van Gaal | 2015-16 Performance Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Name the top team that is setting the bench mark? Oh yes Leicester city, no one is upping their game apart from Leicester, and if VG does not win the PL he has utterly failed. I don't think it's much of a challenge to win the league title, it's not like we have to deal with a Barcelona, or the old Chelsea. The league is there to be won, and VG cannot even figure out these midtable to bottom teams after the time and money he has been given
So? You still have to be a very good team. Not much of a challenge is complete nonsense. You still have to be the best team in England. The top teams in the premier league aren't of the standard they used to be but neither are we (even close) and understandably so.
I can barely think of games in football where there isn't a lull in the game like you just mentioned
The only good team I see is Leicester. Really? Leicester winning it will show how poor this PL is. I stand by that point this PL is not the toughest to win when the rivals are dropping points left right and centre. It takes 3 wins in a row and one team could be well out infront. For it to be difficult to win, one of our rivals has got to be an actual consistent, if all our rivals are having awful seasons the league is there to be won, but no one wants it apart from Leicester. This league is only tough because we are all that bad, who ever comes out champions I don't think we can say they really were the best team in England.
Failure today could be compensated only with a proper challenge for the title till the very end of the season. Otherwise, this season wouldn't be much of a progress.
Football is about more than end of season results. If it weren't the forum could be shut until after the last game of the season. I actually feel sorry for people who care only for the result. Those are the ones who will end up disappointed.
The league's standard has dropped no doubt (at the top end) but City, Arsenal and United are good sides. Not brilliant as of now but all good teams. We'll obviously know more as the season wears on. If I were to guess then City and Arsenal would finish higher than us and obviously be rated higher.
Either way, for any United fan to DEMAND a league title after we've finished 7th and 4th and had to basically replace the entire squad, is silly. I mean, expecting the league every year under SAF was still us being spoilt but logical because he was an utter genius. But if we're going to expect league titles (not challenges, but titles) despite having gone through the freefall and subsequent transition that we have, then that is the definition of being spoilt silly. Be prepared for a lot of disappointment is all I can say. Many seasons post-Fergie will leave you disappointed.
That's a horrible use of sarcasm. Take the tinted spectacles of and compare our drops in tempo to how other top teams perform.Wow, that's incredible. Never known to happen. Tempo is supposed to be at one consistent level throughout.
Tempo drops are part of the game. In every game. Unsurprisingly even moreso for teams not used to playing that tempo every week.
I know where the frustration comes from. It's the timing that's hilariously stupid. "I hate our slow passing football. I will boo the team.. when we play fast direct football. Yeah! Oh I booed after we played fast direct football and that contradicts what I hate? Yeah but we lost, so I'll boo that because winning is actually what matters!"
Logic
The booing comes because of another failure to score. It's all related to the negative shite that's been served up because every chance we do create becomes so important our forwards look frightened to miss. While there may be a slight improvement on the usual dross in those two games it's still not good enough and people have had enough.
Some last much longer than others. Opening twenty minutes were fine then we decided we didn't need to play like that for the next 50. Teams usually drop their tempo when they don't need to push as much.
If you understood it then it's done the job.
Failure to score? Sure. The team and manager can take the blame for that.
"Negative shit"? Rubbish. We weren't negative at all on Saturday. It was much more like "United of old" in terms of urgency and speed of play as anything I've seen at OT for awhile. And that's when they boo.
Either it's to do with us not winning and scoring and basically mostly the result/players' ability to finish on the day, or it's the "negative shit" in which case the fans don't seem to react based on what's actually happening on the pitch. I was commenting if it's the latter which is a bit daft really.
Yeah that didn't happen. The manager set us up to play at a high tempo and during the game we tried to pass it with a real intent and directness as much as we could. If the fans biggest gripe truthfully is our "style" then surely the logical thing to do would be to appreciate the manager giving them what they want? He's far more likely to keep using it. If you boo a high tempo 0-0 and are happy/okay at the end of a slow 1-0/2-0, what message are you giving the boss?
The squad we have we should be doing far better. I do think the only reason VG will be here for a few more years, because there is no one else out there, he's the best we got because what is out there is grim. And sad reality is? under VG it's just has grim.
With VG I don't think the drive and determination is there to really push these players, under someone like a Ferguson he would hammer it home if he saw the way our rivals are playing. Which makes it worse we may have missed a huge chance to win this PL, if there was a rival that was setting the bench mark I would not be so mad at VG, but he has a huge chance to win this PL
The way Arsenals squad is on the treatment table, United hunting with no teeth, city's squads cycle ending, Chelsea in the bottom half of the table, Anything is possible this season
So this squad should be 5 points clear of the premier league? Look at our attack. It's plain mediocre. Our squad is nothing special. We all overrated our squad when we had Fergie getting us punching above our weight. It seems some still overrate our squad. Our midfield is very good, and we've got a good defence. The attack is just decent. You can't be 5 points ahead in the PL with that attack. So I completely disagree.
Someone like Ferguson is one-off. Not sure why United fans don't get this and can't move on. He was an all-time great, possibly the greatest. Other teams have very good managers too but they aren't running away with this league either. It's a "huge chance" for all of them. You make it sound like City, Arsenal are average and we have this fantastic squad that should be walking it.
I wonder what will people who think title expectations are too much for us think about Chelsea next year and years after that(depending on which position they end up this year).
Just because they are fifteenth(and we were 7th) at the moment it doesn't mean that's their realistic position and that they shouldn't aim for the title next year, and especially year after that, if they keep improving their team. Results wise they are even worse than we were under Moyes and I still think everyone expects them to challenge for the title next year, because, you know, their whole team didn't forget how to play football and they actually have team that should challenge for the title, same as we did last year, same as we should this year.
As always, van Gaal fans will remember Moyes' position but ignore that the season before we won the league comfortably. Some people act like van Gaal took over Everton or Southampton, and got task and money to make them challenge for the title, not United.
Just because they are fifteenth(and we were 7th) at the moment it doesn't mean that's their realistic position and that they shouldn't aim for the title next year, and especially year after that, if they keep improving their team. Results wise they are even worse than we were under Moyes and I still think everyone expects them to challenge for the title next year, because, you know, their whole team didn't forget how to play football and they actually have team that should challenge for the title, same as we did last year, same as we should this year.
As always, van Gaal fans will remember Moyes' position but ignore that the season before we won the league comfortably. Some people act like van Gaal took over Everton or Southampton, and got task and money to make them challenge for the title, not United.
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It really isnt. I promise you, Leicester wont win the league.
In fairness though a lot of the players from that team that won the league had either left, turned to shite, or were never any good to begin with, and that's ignoring the devastating psychological blow the Moyes season had dealt to the whole squad.
When Moyes left they didn't magically turn back to Fergie's serial winners. They were the seventh placed club, and this is what Van Gaal inherited.
When Moyes left they didn't magically turn back to Fergie's serial winners. They were the seventh placed club, and this is what Van Gaal inherited.
Did I say fantastic? No, but the squad still should be doing better. But? we look at the back bone of the squad I will give you shaw, if he was fit wonder how better we could be? but the backbone of DDG, Darmien, smalling, with bastian and Morgan, its a strong back bone, our midfield is pretty good, but because we are short upfront I think VG should compensate that by by getting more out of Herrera mata Memphis who are our more attacking threats. I think we are missing perhaps a midfielder who can make those passes because currently our midfield passes it sideways with no imagination
It's been a huge chance because of our old Trafford form, the amount of 0-0 draws is unheard of at OT. I say it's a huge chance as Arsenal and city cannot put a run together, and VG has not taken advantage of this. Yes our rivals have not done the same, so they can say the same thing
I don't actually disagree that our attack should do better/LVG should get more out of them, but at the same time the options aren't brilliant. Memphis has initially struggled tto adapt from English football and that can happen to any young talented footballer. Mata is just not the player he was. I can't blame LVG for him. He's not the player he used to be and I'm not sure he ever will be. Less said our "talisman" Rooney the better. Martial has done very well. But I agree on Herrera. He should, if anything, we given more importance instead of Rooney.
Overall, I do think our attack should do better, and I feel the way we played on Saturday was a positive step in that direction. It was good to see us create so many chances. But it's a positive step only if we maintain it.
But I didn't expect us to win the league in the summer, and still don't. The reasons are many but for me, I can simply never see it as "league title or failure". I didn't even see it that way when SAF was in charge. Expecting titles seems a bit much. Expecting challenges is a lot more tempered and realistic for me. Especially keeping in mind what has followed after SAF.
That is the worst part, he has put blind faith in Rooney playing bad or good, but can't wait to make Herrera's Job any harder. During our run of games last season even though it was 3 or 4, the form of Herrera was brilliant, even fellaini was showing some scary form, so there is something there. But I will never get why we never did build on that system that was unlocking teams
The tempo of the game dropping would be fine if we have put the game to bed. However we seem to do it despite not scoring.
Couldn't agree more. I think he's a lovely player with a wonderful combination of skill and effort. He's a technical player who can play aggressive attacking football. Wish LVG would dump Rooney for the second half of the season and give the Herrera(10)-Martial(9) combo room for development.
It's not that. We're not a great attacking team. Attack does not come easy to us, so we might set up to play at a high tempo and do that for most of the game but there are bounds to be moments of uncertainty and conservatism from players who know they aren't playing well in attack. Give the players some slack at least. If we've played at a higher tempo I for one welcome it and I'm going to bash the players/manager for a slight dip here and there.
However, I'd like to see it continue. We often see us play us that way once every 10 games.
There's grounds for hope. Van Gaal does have a tendency to arrive at the same place as a lot of other people (fans) in terms of selections / formations, it just takes him a while longer to get there. Herrera played an important role in the second half of last season and I wouldnt be surprised if the same happens this time around. It is harder to see Rooney being dropped but it has to happen eventually - and we have seen Van Gaal move in that direction in incremental steps, i.e. subbing him off.
He's not good enough in terms of where we want to be - or should want to be (i.e. at the pinnacle of European football) - but he's definitely good enough for us at the moment.
Well, we should have beaten Newcastle and West Ham (and there's an argument we should have beaten City, although I won't hold that against LVG). So we could have been leading the league, to be fair, even if by only 1 point.
That is the big di Vinci code, how we not trying Memphis on the left, mata on the right with Herrera playing off martial, with the backbone we currently have. So when VG called welbeck not a 20 goal a season striker, and we see what Rooney is doing it makes VG's opinions a bit of a joke. That's what I hate with people like VG, he won't admit when he is wrong at the expense of the team
Fans don't live inside a bubble with memories of only the 90 minutes they'd just watched. It was the culmination of weeks of shite and frustration. You're being deliberately obtuse here.
Progress has happened regardless, due to the vast clear-out that we have undertaken over the past 18 months.
If we believed that after getting rid of the best part of 15 players, whilst buying another 9 players in; most of whom not only have never played in the Premier League but are also far, far younger than the players disposed; that somehow everything would click and we'd be putting in great performances and challenging for the title 12 months later, then I have to say we're being very naive.
In my view you can only fit into one of the following three categories:
- Believed a huge clear-out was required post-Fergie and would be willing to have 3 years trophy-less with inconsistent performances to achieve this clear-out along with time for a new manager to implement his own style
- Believed 3-4 players needed to be replaced post-Fergie with a couple of World Class additions and would be willing to have 12-24 months transitioning under a new manager/new style
- Believed the squad was perfectly fine with minor fine-tuning and expected a manager to come in and hit the ground running with possibly one trophy-less season whilst a new manager implemented his style
I think our fans just need to take a step back and think a bit logically. Challenging for the title this year would be a phenomenal achievement, particularly against this City side and only 12-18 months after finishing 7th and clearing out an entire squad. Challenging under all these circumstances whilst also playing an attractive style of Football is a pure pipe dream.
Look at our squad - one more Summer of a few sensible purchases and we'll start to look like a settled team ready to challenge for years.
It did. I watched the game thanks. The fans are damned whatever they do it at the minute so it's pointless debating it any further in a thread about our managers performance.
You make reasonable points and I agree with most of them. Still, finishing 3rd in this CL group and not challenging for the title given the circumstances (City have obvious problems, Arsenal have key players out for months) would be a failure to an extent, especially if Spurs and Liverpool do better than us in the league, not to mention Leicester. The minimum is to finish above these teams. I agree that challenging for the title may be unrealistic to an extent, if City suddenly become as good as they are on paper.
I agree mate. Good post.
It's frustrating right now but it does take time. We have no one even close to world class in our attack. Once we can add that (either by buying one or Martial and Memphis fulfilling their potential) we will be an excellent team, extremely difficult to beat.
Still boring as feck though
Forum is for discussion, it has nothing to do with the results. The forum is not graded on any sort of achievement, so i am not sure why being patient to see how the season pans out means that the forum should be shut. What's the connection here?
I think you miss the point here by saying people "only care about the results". The majority of the forum I read, including myself, have said that ideally we would like both entertainment and results, but during this rebuilding/transition phase, it makes more sense to prioritize results. Ultimately we would like both, there's no only. Probably the only ones who care "only" about the results are the Glazers.
And in any case, it is presumptuous to say that those concerned about results will end up disappointed. Why? Do you know which position in the league we are going to end up? Please enlighten the entire forum so maybe we can go make a bet, win some money and feel less disappointed. All this conjecture about how bad we are going to be is pure bullshit and make believe. Then those who only care about entertainment, presumably yourself, will you then be happy if we play football like Bournemouth creating many chances and end up in the relegation zone?
I have no idea why expecting a decent title challenge while playing decent attacking football after spending a fortune is considered as too much to ask for. We're not just playing bad football relative to previous United sides, we play some of the worst football in the entire league. Teams with a fraction of the budget with far inferior players are playing better stuff.
Ha, well hopefully if the world class forwards are banging in 2 or 3 a game it won't seem as painful.
Trying to remain positive.
Great post.
I probably put myself in the middle group. But in the event we have had a much bigger clear out than I expected or thought we needed, and it is taking a little longer.
The bottom line is, setting aside the longer term, post-SAF adjustment, we did a massive overhaul in the summer just gone. Half the first team werent here last season. So whatever the longer term cycle, this season was always going to be difficult - especially the first half of it - while all those players find their feet.
I think we will steadily improve as this season goes on. And I hope from here we make more gradual changes / improvements, so we can build up some consistency and win some silverware next season. (Other teams have done us a favour by being a bit shit as well and if we are really lucky and momentum builds quickly, we are in with a shout this season, which I did not really expect.)
I can barely think of a Utd game this season when there hasn't been a 90 minute lull!