How? I said you can't blame a Catholic priest for speaking out against gay marriage, in the same way you can't blame a pro-gay marriage campaigner for speaking out in favour of gay marriage. It's what they're supposed to do.
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Gay Marriage
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
How? I said you can't blame a Catholic priest for speaking out against gay marriage, in the same way you can't blame a pro-gay marriage campaigner for speaking out in favour of gay marriage. It's what they're supposed to do.
I was arguing against the notion that they're not imposing their views on anyone. Which they are.
In which case the pro-gay rights campaigners are imposing their view on people now?
They're not forcing anyone to do anything. That's the difference. For example, tax laws are something that's imposed on us, marriage is something we can ignore for a lifetime. If they said the priests have to go the the local gay bar once a week and bend over, sure, but that's not happening.
Ah right, let me rephrase my point:
Catholics weren't imposing their views on gay people by stopping them from getting married. Irish society was. It just so happened that Irish society decided to follow Catholic beliefs on this issue.
Similarly, pro-gay rights supporters aren't imposing their view on those bakers who were found to have discriminated against gay people. Irish society is. It just so happens that Irish society decided to follow pro-gay views on this issue.
I'm not arguing that gay people weren't imposed upon, my argument is that neither the Catholics nor gay rights supporters have the power to do the imposing. That power lay with the Irish people as a whole, so the Irish people as a whole are responsible.
While Ireland voted Yes anyway, I'm not really sure that last part is true; equality shouldn't be based upon what the majority of people want, it should be a basic right.
Ah but then it comes down to what people decide are "basic rights". Presumably the Irish people didn't think gay marriage counted as one until relatively recently, so they didn't feel obliged to introduce it.
Decent point, although it's generally accepted that people of any race/sexuality have a right not to be discriminated against. Although I see your point that what is regarded as a 'right' can often vary, to be fair.
Hark at these feckwits ... http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/the-joyful-death-of-catholic-ireland
The last paragraph is a humdinger.
The last paragraph is a humdinger.
The bitterness in that article is lovely
What a shitehawk.
Not even near worst on that site mind:
http://www.crisismagazine.com/2015/anti-christian-bullies-target-jewish-group-helping-gay-men
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I was just directed from other thread to this one and saw this. It is not, there are a lot of reasons why gay parents, no matter how hard they try, are not as good parents as hetero couple. Of course loving gay parents are better then abusive hetero parents but I am talking about hetero parents who try to be as good as possible and gay parents who also try to be as good as possible. Here is one post why I am against gay couple adoption.
100% total bullshit, Jerch. Children need loving, supportive parents. Defined gender roles are not a requirement.
@Jerch have you been offline for the last seven months?
Well in this beautiful world of democracy you can't say to anybody what he should do. I was in a family where a parents went through divorce so long then stayed together (thank good our slow law). But it wasn't nice, and yes you miss the other parent.
I always think to myself that they should think before making a child if the couple split. Or they should think about child and try to build bridges between them.
As I said before, I don't think gay couple can be as good parents as hetero couple and I have nothing against gay people.
Also I live by my own moral standards, I as a young kid always said that I am against abortion. Well when I and now my wife were 17 she got pregnant. Most people will forget about moral standards in this situation and do an abortion but we kept a child and tried that ur relationship would work and it did.
Also i always found it funny how people, who don't agree with me and who "defend" a gay right are usually very intolerant to my opinion and mean while I always try to understand their opinion and argue with good arguments if I still don't agree.
He was talking about gay adoption in a separate thread so I linked him to this discussion rather than cluttering that thread up and taking it off topic.
But they are. Many studies show that. If you wan't I can give you a numerous links that they are.
I very rarely go on the general forum tbf.
Makes sense. Just an old bump, thought you'd only logged on and seen a bunch of alerts.
I might be wrong but an "uncle" or an "aunt" suffice. The other sex member doesn't have to be one of the two parents.
Not in a modern society. Gender roles are blurred these days; mothers aren't required to stay home and bake cookies while daddy goes to work. Fathers can be nurtuers, etc.
This is true but would also depend on various socio-economic backgrounds. Differences in class and whatnot do have an impact on parenting and expectations regarding traditional (whatever that pertains to) gender roles.
Partly why I think studies are a load of nonsense -- the issue is too complex to be defined by statistical analysis.
I would actually like to see these links Jerch if you would, please.
It's not impossible to me that you're right, but I do feel like every time someone sells me something 'scientific' about the inferiority of gay marriage/parenthood it turns out the Catholic Church is involved somewhere, or some American focus On the Family nonsense or whatnot.
Uncle or aunt can't be with a child as much time as a parent SHOULD BE and kids rarely could attach to uncle/aunt same as to parent. It's often used argument which rarely hold's water, I am confident that most gay couples don't have aunt/uncle who have time 24/7 to act as kid's parent, and even if they do as i said kid rarely could attach the same to them as to parents.
I read one study of single parent families and if brother/sister of the parent could take that role and they couldn't but have been searching for a long time now but i can't find it.
I also have a personal experience because first year and a half we lived separately with my wife. She has 3 brothers which take care of him a lot of time but he never attached to them same as to me. I really can't explain why.
The point about that post was that it's completely hypocritical for someone to argue against same sex marriage on the grounds that children need both a mother and a father whilst using what the Bible says as justification for doing so, if they aren't arguing for divorce to be illegal even though the the same book also talks about marriage being a lifetime commitment.
Will go through a few articles and try to find a good ones. I should give you link by the end of the weekend and I hope you understand that I don't bookmark those links, I have one good video about it but it is in Slovenian language.
Thanks man. Sorry to put you to trouble
You answeared this to yourself. I act like a divorce is illegal, I knew that when I said yes. Because of that I thought about before the marriage if I want to marry, our older son was already 3 and a half when we finally decided that we want to do it.
I am not a catholic lunatic, tbf i rarely even go to church, I can't remember the last time when I was in a church but I have my own moral standards in which I believe, not because of my religion but becouse i think it is the right way to live this way.
You might act that way and that's your choice, but that doesn't mean it should be in law that no one else can divorce. And it doesn't stop those people that are perfectly happy to have divorce allowed by law but don't want marriage or adoption for same sex couples being hypocrites.
@Jerch
You can find articles that support both thought processes, so it's hardly definitive proof that Hetero parents are better for a child.
How many pregnancies are unplanned? How many teen pregnancies are there? How many pregnancies to families in poverty?
Now how many same sex couples can have an unplanned pregnancy? None. They have to go through a lengthy process, meaning they have time to make sure they are prepared, financially stable, and can provide a good home for the child.
we can agree to disagree, but I find the fact that people still think same sex parents are worse than Hetero parents when it comes to raising children is ridiculous, and the ones suggesting it are usually trying to cling to some outdated notions.
You can find articles that support both thought processes, so it's hardly definitive proof that Hetero parents are better for a child.
How many pregnancies are unplanned? How many teen pregnancies are there? How many pregnancies to families in poverty?
Now how many same sex couples can have an unplanned pregnancy? None. They have to go through a lengthy process, meaning they have time to make sure they are prepared, financially stable, and can provide a good home for the child.
we can agree to disagree, but I find the fact that people still think same sex parents are worse than Hetero parents when it comes to raising children is ridiculous, and the ones suggesting it are usually trying to cling to some outdated notions.
What I don't understand @Jerch, is why you're arguing against gay adoption completely. You even said in the first post you made that gay parents could be loving and would be better than abusive hetrosexual parents, so at best you're actually arguing that hetrosexual parents should have priority over homosexual parents when it comes to adoption (an argument I would also disagree with), not that they shouldn't adopt at all.
It's a bad argument to be fair. Kids which are unplanned or born in poverty are one thing but they are born to the parents. Those hetero parents are not the ones who "will fight" with gay couples for a kid which is going into adoption.
The hetero couples which want people in addoption also go through lengthy process, they also have time to make sure they are prepared, they are also financially stable and can provide a good home for the child. They can give all gay couples can give with addition of both mother and a father figure.
Also if there is an unplanned pregnancy an abortion is legal in all European countries so this is really not an issue if parents think they are not prepared for a child. Also they can decide to have a child and give him in adoption after the birth.
Well if you give priority to hetero couples homosexual couples will not get child anyway so why fight for ths right. At least in my country there is long long waiting line for adoption. Yes a lot of kids are in curatorship but they are usually there because the situation with their real parents is not clear or other legal obstacles (and because some people earn a lot of money from it but i won't go there) and not that there are not enough hetero couples which want adopt kids.
I know a couple age around 35, they have a lot of money, nice house and are really nice people. A perfect home for a kid. They waited for a kid for 8 years and didn't get any. They once paid Russian agency to adopt one kid a lot of money and didn't get the kid either and money was lost. Then they decided to go to Russia and take things in their hands, they went there and saw a prostitute on a street with a little gir(around 6 years old). They offered a adoption for a girl and the woman agreed, they made everything legal and then the woman told to the couple that this girl have two older brothers (around 11 and 14 years old) and they were so nice that they adopted those two kids also.
My point is, if such a couple couldn't get a child, how would a gay couple could get a child if hetero couple have priority? If the kids would need a home and there is no couple who want to adopt them i am fine that a gay couple adopt those kids but there is no such a thing like a kid who can not find a family, at least in my country.
It's a bad argument based on what? You saying so?
A strong family unit who love and respect each other, can set boundaries, and provide a healthy environment is what kids need. What part of that do you only get from a Hetero couple? None.
How many of those parents that are unfit do actually give them up for adoption? How many keep them for benefits?
Why would anyone need to "fight" over adoption? If a couple is qualified to provide for, and raise, a child, it doesn't matter what their sexual orientation is.
You are comparing a bad/unfit parents who can have their own child with social and financial stable gay couple. Unfit parents are problem of a social workers and they deal with it, if the situation is not good for the kid they take it.
Gay couple can't have their own kids, they need to adopt kids and they "fight" against hetero couples who have also all things as a gay couple with addition that they can offer both father and a mother so they can give more to the kid as the gay couple. You can't compare unfit parents who can have their own child with perfect gay couple who can't have their own child naturaly because there are also a lot of perfect hetero couples can't have their own kids and are better for the kid as they can give something gay couple can't.
I used fight because I am not a native speaker so i can't find the right word.
The usage is fine, I understand what you mean, but my question was what can a Hetero couple give that a same sex couple can't? If there's a choice between a same sex couple and a Hetero couple, it should be who is better equipped and a better home environment for the child. The orientation of the parents has nothing to do with that.
Almost all recent studies I've seen show that there's no disadvantage to children with same sex parents. It's silly to think they can't raise a child as well as a Hetero couple.
Well i quickly looked what is the main point why a kid need a father and a mother. It is a lot of small things you get only from one or another while growing up but the main point is Oedipus complex. To resolute oedipus complex kids need both mother and a father, if they don't do it they can have problems with what is moraly right and wrong as an adults.
What is oedipus complex you can read in a link from wiki and a important quoute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oedipus_complex
If you have time search on google articles about oedipus complex and a problems if kid don't have both mother and a father. I know there are 8 out of 10 which are not worth reading but you should get a point. If you can't find good article I will also take some time to find it for you.
Read my last post why you need father and a mother...
Growing up without a mother or a father would be like growing up without electricity; if you'd never experienced what it was like to have one, you would most likely have the mental dexterity to be content, but my goodness if you'd only known...
Same sex couples raise children who are just as well rounded and functional in society as children raised by Hetero parents.
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Why didn't you add the parts regarding the criticisms the theory has met? And how more modern minds feel it wasn't such an accurate representation of what actually happens?
From your very same wiki page (which is really the best place to get information for things like this anyway, right
)I guess you didn't read my last post.
I was talking about oedipus complex, how kids from same sex couples can't resolute it which can lead to problems in knowing what is right and what is wrong. They can be smart, they can be educated, they can feel loved but they are more likely to be morally unsound (if this is the right word). It not the problem the sexuality of the parents, the problem is that kid need a woman and a man! If this is offensive you should call a Freud and exlain this to him. It just one complex you have to resolute while growing up, there are other things people get from father or a mother but this one is the most important.
And there are a lot of studies, some say the one are better other that the other are better they are TBF usually made to prove a point a people who ordered a study try to prove. Who chose kids for the tests, from what backround kids came, what kids were doing on the test, etc. If you want to prove one point through the study you will without a lot of problems. Like Regnerus study proved that kids from hetero couples did better and i find it funny that an author of your quote find it important to called into question Regnerus study.
And again why I always need to hear that kind of things when I agree with people who fight for gay rights. Maybe you are close minded because you can't recognize my point of view why I think the way I think. And maybe you are close minded because you talk about more or less same thing in your last 4 posts when i am proving totaly different points in every reply.
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