Gay Marriage

Why didn't you add the parts regarding the criticisms the theory has met? And how more modern minds feel it wasn't such an accurate representation of what actually happens?

From your very same wiki page (which is really the best place to get information for things like this anyway, right :p )
The fact that some people try as hard as possible to called into question the oedipus complex (tbf i know what it is about so i just copied a quote and a link so didn't saw that last lines) and even try to edit wiki to show that the oedipus complex is something which doesn't exist fact is that when 3 psychologist were on a debate which i was watching live (2 was for gay couple adoptions (both of them are pioneers of gay movement in Slovenia) and 1 was against becouse of the oedipus complex) all four in the end agreed with that one who was against that the oedipus complex is important. One even tried to picture that it is not so bad if people are morally retarded (really retarded is not the right word again so please bear with me i am not native speaker) because he have already a whole ordination of the people who didn't resolute oedipus complex and that the situation won't change a lot if we have a few more.

And this is my fear! People who drive propaganda for this don't think about what is the best for kids but think only about what they want to achive and what right do they want to get. Childrens should be in first place.
 
I guess you didn't read my last post.
I was talking about oedipus complex, how kids from same sex couples can't resolute it which can lead to problems in knowing what is right and what is wrong. They can be smart, they can be educated, they can feel loved but they are more likely to be morally unsound (if this is the right word). It not the problem the sexuality of the parents, the problem is that kid need a woman and a man! If this is offensive you should call a Freud and exlain this to him. It just one complex you have to resolute while growing up, there are other things people get from father or a mother but this one is the most important.

And there are a lot of studies, some say the one are better other that the other are better they are TBF usually made to prove a point a people who ordered a study try to prove. Who chose kids for the tests, from what backround kids came, what kids were doing on the test, etc. If you want to prove one point through the study you will without a lot of problems. Like Regnerus study proved that kids from hetero couples did better and i find it funny that an author of your quote find it important to called into question Regnerus study.


And again why I always need to hear that kind of things when I agree with people who fight for gay rights. Maybe you are close minded because you can't recognize my point of view why I think the way I think. And maybe you are close minded because you talk about more or less same thing in your last 4 posts when i am proving totaly different points in every reply.


Yeah Freud was a really well rounded individual himself, so he would totally get it.

Saying kids with same sex parents will grow up and be immoral because of that is ridiculous, and rather offensive again. Close to saying gay parents Raise gay kids...or that homosexuals are somehow immoral themselves.

You'll want to double check your info on the Regernus trials, and the people he studied. Which is why it was called in to question. Just like how some of those studies were by religious groups who are against homosexuality anyway.

I guess I could be the close minded one. I mean, here I am saying that all sexualities can, and should be allowed to, raise children if they are able. Sexuality has no bearing on your ability to love and raise a child to be a functioning member of society. Gay parents won't lead children to grow up to be pedophiles, or whatever other stupid nonsense that was suggested.

I've said the same thing in my posts because you haven't been able to give a satisfsctory answer why you think Hetero parents deserve the sole right of raising children. It sounds just as ridiculous as saying people of colour aren't equal. That was the mindset once, and now people (mostly) see how stupid that was. Hopefully one day you'll have your enlightenment moment and realize that same sex couples deserve to be treated the same as Hetero couples, and are just as capable of raising children.
 
The fact that some people try as hard as possible to called into question the oedipus complex (tbf i know what it is about so i just copied a quote and a link so didn't saw that last lines) and even try to edit wiki to show that the oedipus complex is something which doesn't exist fact is that when 3 psychologist were on a debate which i was watching live (2 was for gay couple adoptions (both of them are pioneers of gay movement in Slovenia) and 1 was against becouse of the oedipus complex) all four in the end agreed with that one who was against that the oedipus complex is important. One even tried to picture that it is not so bad if people are morally retarded (really retarded is not the right word again so please bear with me i am not native speaker) because he have already a whole ordination of the people who didn't resolute oedipus complex and that the situation won't change a lot if we have a few more.

And this is my fear! People who drive propaganda for this don't think about what is the best for kids but think only about what they want to achive and what right do they want to get. Childrens should be in first place.

Your last point is what I've said all along. The only difference is you seem to be of the mind set that same Sex couples are incapable of caring for children in the same way as a Hetero couple. Whereas I believe that they can provide just as good an upbringing.

We can agree to disagree, which I said before, but I just still find it disheartening that we aren't as modern in our thinking as sometimes we hope.
 
Your last point is what I've said all along. The only difference is you seem to be of the mind set that same Sex couples are incapable of caring for children in the same way as a Hetero couple. Whereas I believe that they can provide just as good an upbringing.

We can agree to disagree, which I said before, but I just still find it disheartening that we aren't as modern in our thinking as sometimes we hope.

By even arguing about children, you are conceding points in your argument that don't need to be conceded. This is not a children's rights issue, this is a human rights issue. Whether or not a couple are fit to be parents has never been a prerequisite for marriage in modern society. Moving the goalposts to say that gay couples cannot get married because they aren't as fit to be parents as straight couples is not only factual inaccurate, it's completely irrelevant.
 
Your last point is what I've said all along. The only difference is you seem to be of the mind set that same Sex couples are incapable of caring for children in the same way as a Hetero couple. Whereas I believe that they can provide just as good an upbringing.

We can agree to disagree, which I said before, but I just still find it disheartening that we aren't as modern in our thinking as sometimes we hope.
We really should agree to disagree. Let's just wait and see where this modern thinking will brought us. I will be very happy if it will turn out i am wrong but i am afraid that this won't be the case.

edit: and YOU not WE hope we would be as modern in our thinking. I would rather see that we as Europians would step back a little to our conservative tradition and not blindly follow what come to us from the other side of the ocean.
 
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We really should agree to disagree. Let's just wait and see where this modern thinking will brought us. I will be very happy if it will turn out i am wrong but i am afraid that this won't be the case.

edit: and YOU not WE hope we would be as modern in our thinking. I would rather see that we as Europians would step back a little to our conservative tradition and not blindly follow what come to us from the other side of the ocean.

Well as a European, I'd like to not fall back into previous thinking. Why is it so bad that we consider people as equals in this regard?
 
By even arguing about children, you are conceding points in your argument that don't need to be conceded. This is not a children's rights issue, this is a human rights issue. Whether or not a couple are fit to be parents has never been a prerequisite for marriage in modern society. Moving the goalposts to say that gay couples cannot get married because they aren't as fit to be parents as straight couples is not only factual inaccurate, it's completely irrelevant.

Because the discussion he raised was about the ability of same sex couples and their ability to raise children. I don't think anyone is arguing about their right to get married, at least in this discussion.
 
Well as a European, I'd like to not fall back into previous thinking. Why is it so bad that we consider people as equals in this regard?
Didn't we agreed to disagree. Having children is not a human right. The end of story for me.
 
Didn't we agreed to disagree. Having children is not a human right. The end of story for me.

We did agree to disagree, but you couldn't help yourself trying to get one last word in afterwards ;)

Having children isn't a human right, and that extends to Hetero parents as much as same sex parents. Shame that you'd rather keep your "traditional" mindset, rather than seeing people as equals. I'm sure you'd be happy if people tried telling you that you don't deserve to raise a child because someone thinks you're immoral and incapable of raising a child.
 
We did agree to disagree, but you couldn't help yourself trying to get one last word in afterwards ;)

Having children isn't a human right, and that extends to Hetero parents as much as same sex parents. Shame that you'd rather keep your "traditional" mindset, rather than seeing people as equals. I'm sure you'd be happy if people tried telling you that you don't deserve to raise a child because someone thinks you're immoral and incapable of raising a child.
FFS it is not about that i think gay people are immoral or incapable of raising a child. A gay man and a gay women can be great parents together, but kids need father and a mother. I am not having problems with sexuality, I am having problem with gender whcih one should be male and the other female.

EDIT: and gay activist usually fight for human rights. Ok you got it all but childrens are not a human rights. When it comes to childrens we should say ok, there is a line, childrens are more important than anything.
 
FFS it is not about that i think gay people are immoral or incapable of raising a child. A gay man and a gay women can be great parents together, but kids need father and a mother. I am not having problems with sexuality, I am having problem with gender whcih one should be male and the other female.

you have said that same sex couples raise children that have moral issues. You've said quite a few questionable things across this thread, and your gender thread (even ignoring your possible cheap "modern thinking" shot), so at some point you might catch on that your way of thinking isn't quite right. I won't get my hopes up though :)
 
you have said that same sex couples raise children that have moral issues. You've said quite a few questionable things across this thread, and your gender thread (even ignoring your possible cheap "modern thinking" shot), so at some point you might catch on that your way of thinking isn't quite right. I won't get my hopes up though :)
Yes if you read the link of oedipus complex this is right. Not only childs in same sex couples, if a child is raised by only one parent they also could have moral issues. It is, again, not something against same sex couples. Argue with Freud about it but I would think he knew what he was talking about.

And modern thinking was your cheap shot, ot maybe it was that I am not open minded, can't decide really.
 
FFS it is not about that i think gay people are immoral or incapable of raising a child. A gay man and a gay women can be great parents together, but kids need father and a mother. I am not having problems with sexuality, I am having problem with gender whcih one should be male and the other female.

EDIT: and gay activist usually fight for human rights. Ok you got it all but childrens are not a human rights. When it comes to childrens we should say ok, there is a line, childrens are more important than anything.
Then what do you think about single parents? Should parents be barred from divorcing? Or should children be taken away after a divorce?
 
Yes if you read the link of oedipus complex this is right. Not only childs in same sex couples, if a child is raised by only one parent they also could have moral issues. It is, again, not something against same sex couples. Argue with Freud about it but I would think he knew what he was talking about.

And modern thinking was your cheap shot, ot maybe it was that I am not open minded, can't decide really.

I did read the link you posted, apparently better than you did since you ignored all the criticisms it also has. Freud had his own issues, but I guess you can overlook that since you're trying to use his thoughts.

So you have issues with single parents, same sex parents, anyone else? Interracial parents perhaps?

at least we can agree on not knowing whether you're close minded or just "old fashioned" :)

Then what do you think about single parents? Should parents be barred from divorcing? Or should children be taken away after a divorce?

It would appear he believes single sex parents raise immoral children too :rolleyes:
 
Then what do you think about single parents? Should parents be barred from divorcing? Or should children be taken away after a divorce?
I answeared this before. I don't like divorce at all. If you say all this things once then you should stand behind your words. In last post I said that it is the same with single parents, if childs don't have resolute oedipus complex before they split these kids could have moral issues.
Fortunately when parents divorce usually both parents still help to raise a child so it is not such a problem and also more often then not kids are old enough that they already resoluted oedipus complex. Those families are degraded and it is sad that they are so often used by the gay people and are even more marked because of this.

But if you will go through the history of some crazy feckers you will find out that a lot of them didn't have for example a father when they were growing up like Fritzl.
 
I answeared this before. I don't like divorce at all. If you say all this things once then you should stand behind your words. In last post I said that it is the same with single parents, if childs don't have resolute oedipus complex before they split these kids could have moral issues.
Fortunately when parents divorce usually both parents still help to raise a child so it is not such a problem and also more often then not kids are old enough that they already resoluted oedipus complex. Those families are degraded and it is sad that they are so often used by the gay people and are even more marked because of this.

But if you will go through the history of some crazy feckers you will find out that a lot of them didn't have for example a father when they were growing up like Fritzl.

And a lot of them did have two parents.
 
I did read the link you posted, apparently better than you did since you ignored all the criticisms it also has. Freud had his own issues, but I guess you can overlook that since you're trying to use his thoughts.

So you have issues with single parents, same sex parents, anyone else? Interracial parents perhaps?

at least we can agree on not knowing whether you're close minded or just "old fashioned" :)

It would appear he believes single sex parents raise immoral children too:rolleyes:
Could you just please stop being rude. I said they could be immoral when they grow up or that there is a much much bigger posibility than with kids raised by hetero couples.

Can you accept that someone think different then you, without being butt hurt. I never insulted you and you are throwing cheap insult at me post after post.
 
Could you just please stop being rude. I said they could be immoral when they grow up or that there is a much much bigger posibility than with kids raised by hetero couples.

Can you accept that someone think different then you, without being butt hurt. I never insulted you and you are throwing cheap insult at me post after post.

Anyone could be immoral, regardless of parents. What do you have that backs up your claim that same sex parents raise so many more immoral children?

I'm not butt hurt at all, just enjoying a discussion. Didn't know your feelings were getting hurt, apologies. Thought you would be a bit tougher skinned if you're judging other people so harshly.
 
Could you just please stop being rude. I said they could be immoral when they grow up or that there is a much much bigger posibility than with kids raised by hetero couples.

Can you accept that someone think different then you, without being butt hurt. I never insulted you and you are throwing cheap insult at me post after post.

Where is your source on that?
 
I answeared this before. I don't like divorce at all. If you say all this things once then you should stand behind your words. In last post I said that it is the same with single parents, if childs don't have resolute oedipus complex before they split these kids could have moral issues.
Fortunately when parents divorce usually both parents still help to raise a child so it is not such a problem and also more often then not kids are old enough that they already resoluted oedipus complex. Those families are degraded and it is sad that they are so often used by the gay people and are even more marked because of this.

But if you will go through the history of some crazy feckers you will find out that a lot of them didn't have for example a father when they were growing up like Fritzl.

Yes, but I also personally know people who lost one parent soon after they were born and they're perfectly alright. The fact that some crazy people in history didn't have fathers isn't meaningful unless its shown that a greater proportion of children without fathers go crazy than those that have one.
Similarly, it seems you are condemning gay couples to being bad parents not on the basis of any empirical evidence but solely on Freud's theories, which are not even highly regarded in the relevant academic circles.
 
And a lot of them did have two parents.
Yeah and they were abused in childhood. It is rarely that someone is a crazy fecker if he have a "perfect" childhood. This is why we should try to give as perfect family to all childs as possible and don't experiment to much because it could go terribly wrong. There are enough childs who don't have right enviroment for their development and who are abused, we should focus our energy to help then rather then argue things we do right now.
 
We really should agree to disagree. Let's just wait and see where this modern thinking will brought us. I will be very happy if it will turn out i am wrong but i am afraid that this won't be the case.

edit: and YOU not WE hope we would be as modern in our thinking. I would rather see that we as Europians would step back a little to our conservative tradition and not blindly follow what come to us from the other side of the ocean.

Other side of the ocean...you are aware in the US, Europe is the example that is used it terms of progressive gay rights.

The US is NOT the leader of the free world in this instance
 
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Yeah and they were abused in childhood. It is rarely that someone is a crazy fecker if he have a "perfect" childhood. This is why we should try to give as perfect family to all childs as possible and don't experiment to much because it could go terribly wrong. There are enough childs who don't have right enviroment for their development and who are abused, we should focus our energy to help then rather then argue things we do right now.

But you still haven't said why having two same sex parents goes against that ideal.
 
Where is your source on that?
Said before a hundred times.
Yes, but I also personally know people who lost one parent soon after they were born and they're perfectly alright. The fact that some crazy people in history didn't have fathers isn't meaningful unless its shown that a greater proportion of children without fathers go crazy than those that have one.
Similarly, it seems you are condemning gay couples to being bad parents not on the basis of any empirical evidence but solely on Freud's theories, which are not even highly regarded in the relevant academic circles.
But it is as much as I know. As I said we shouldn't experiment to much with childs and the way we raise them because it could go wrong.

At the end of the day I am against same sex adoption and will be in the future becouse I think with a help of my knowledge that it is not right.

I am lucky enough to already have two kids, but it is 6 in the morning in Slovenia and I didn't went to sleep at all so I am going to jump to bed because those two lovely childs will be up in 1 or 2 hours.
 
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Other side of the ocean...you are aware in the US, Europe is the example that is used it terms of progressive gay rights.

The US is NOT the leader of the free world in thus instance
Slovenia or better said Slovenian goverment got a lot of money from the USA in 2011 to accept the new family law which was denied on the referendum in 2012, only 2 years later the Slovenian goverment accepted the same law again and again there will be soon a referendum about it.
 
Also if there is an unplanned pregnancy an abortion is legal in all European countries so this is really not an issue

No, it isn't - Ireland and Northern Ireland are two that don't have it, for example.

I am also one of the people very interested in the research you talk about, because during our referendum the anti-gay marriage side tried to use a raft of discredited research. I'll be interested to see if this is what you'll post - I hopefully remember the names of the discredited authors :)

Also, famously the anti-gay marriage side here got told off by UNESCO for totally misrepresenting data from their reports - again, I'll be interested to see if that's what you're quoting.

A lot of this pseudo science and indeed anti science is driven by a few pseudo journals and databases which are also utterly discredited - that will be a third thing to watched out for when you quote your research .

During our referendum, we learned that from reputable research, something like 97% of studies showed equal outcomes for children with straight or gay parents.
 
Gay couple can't have their own kids, they need to adopt kids

I always laugh a little when I read statements like this, because it shows that the person is equating "gay couples" with "guy couples". What if the couple were two women?

It was a very disturbing tactic by the anti gay marriage people here to bombard people with the "horrifying" image of two men raising a child, neglecting utterly that it could be two women. Some groups even hinted at paedophilia!

In the end, it totally backfired because the "two Irish mammies" meme appeared, i.e. how spoiled you'd be if you had two mothers :D
 
I always laugh a little when I read statements like this, because it shows that the person is equating "gay couples" with "guy couples". What if the couple were two women?

It was a very disturbing tactic by the anti gay marriage people here to bombard people with the "horrifying" image of two men raising a child, neglecting utterly that it could be two women. Some groups even hinted at paedophilia!

In the end, it totally backfired because the "two Irish mammies" meme appeared, i.e. how spoiled you'd be if you had two mothers :D
2 womens can't either have baby, if they find a way how can 2 womens together get baby i would really like to see that....
 
And there are a lot of studies, some say the one are better other that the other are better they are TBF usually made to prove a point a people who ordered a study try to prove. Who chose kids for the tests, from what backround kids came, what kids were doing on the test, etc. If you want to prove one point through the study you will without a lot of problems. Like Regnerus study proved that kids from hetero couples did better and i find it funny that an author of your quote find it important to called into question Regnerus study.

He mentions it because Regnerus's work is THE MOST discredited-of-the-discredited. Seriously, utterly flawed and redundant. He is utterly diagraced as is all of his research.

He may also be mentioning Regnerus because if you try to discover the root of most anti-gay marriage "research" that is used, very often you find it is just a reconfiguration of these exact same discredited Regnerus research.

If you're calling this your material that supports your argument, then you need to go back to google and start again, because it totally and uttetly invalidates your argument.
 
Said before a hundred times.

But it is as much as I know. As I said we shouldn't experiment to much with childs and the way we raise them because it could go wrong.

At the end of the day I am against same sex adoption and will be in the future becouse I think with a help of my knowledge that it is not right.

I am lucky enough to already have two kids, but it is 6 in the morning in Slovenia and I didn't went to sleep at all so I am going to jump to bed because those two lovely childs will be up in 1 or 2 hours.
But what if the child to be adopted was in an orphanage? Would your view be that it would be better to be raised by no parents than to be raised by a same-sex couple?
 
He mentions it because Regnerus's work is THE MOST discredited-of-the-discredited. Seriously, utterly flawed and redundant. He is utterly diagraced as is all of his research.

He may also be mentioning Regnerus because if you try to discover the root of most anti-gay marriage "research" that is used, very often you find it is just a reconfiguration of these exact same discredited Regnerus research.

If you're calling this your material that supports your argument, then you need to go back to google and start again, because it totally and uttetly invalidates your argument.
Most studies are baised! Again if someone show me clearly baised study that kids from same sex couples are better I will also use by baised study that they are not.

You cant imagine a way that ONE of them could have a baby? :rolleyes:

The point stands. They might not have to adopt. This is often left out in anti arguments.
It is a child of that ONE women and the man who made him! It is not a child of two womens. Thinking like that is immoral to say the least which is baised on cheating, lying, deception,...

But what if the child to be adopted was in an orphanage? Would your view be that it would be better to be raised by no parents than to be raised by a same-sex couple?

What I don't understand @Jerch, is why you're arguing against gay adoption completely. You even said in the first post you made that gay parents could be loving and would be better than abusive hetrosexual parents, so at best you're actually arguing that hetrosexual parents should have priority over homosexual parents when it comes to adoption (an argument I would also disagree with), not that they shouldn't adopt at all.
Well if you give priority to hetero couples homosexual couples will not get child anyway so why fight for ths right. At least in my country there is long long waiting line for adoption. Yes a lot of kids are in curatorship but they are usually there because the situation with their real parents is not clear or other legal obstacles (and because some people earn a lot of money from it but i won't go there) and not that there are not enough hetero couples which want adopt kids.
I know a couple age around 35, they have a lot of money, nice house and are really nice people. A perfect home for a kid. They waited for a kid for 8 years and didn't get any. They once paid Russian agency to adopt one kid a lot of money and didn't get the kid either and money was lost. Then they decided to go to Russia and take things in their hands, they went there and saw a prostitute on a street with a little gir(around 6 years old). They offered a adoption for a girl and the woman agreed, they made everything legal and then the woman told to the couple that this girl have two older brothers (around 11 and 14 years old) and they were so nice that they adopted those two kids also.
My point is, if such a couple couldn't get a child, how would a gay couple could get a child if hetero couple have priority? If the kids would need a home and there is no couple who want to adopt them i am fine that a gay couple adopt those kids but there is no such a thing like a kid who can not find a family, at least in my country.
 
Hang on Jerch, you bumped this thread and said you had research you could share with us. The burden of proof is on you, not me, so leave out that kind of nonsense circular argument please.

I'm waiting for some research from that HASN'T been discredited. You haven't linked to anything bar wiki yet. After you've posted it, I'll be very happy to post many many pieces of verifiable research that i will be glad to submit to rigorous checking as to their impartiality.

But, you made the claims here first - your proof first, too.
 
Hang on Jerch, you bumped this thread and said you had research you could share with us. The burden of proof is on you, not me, so leave out that kind of nonsense circular argument please.

I'm waiting for some research from that HASN'T been discredited. You haven't linked to anything bar wiki yet. After you've posted it, I'll be very happy to post many many pieces of verifiable research that i will be glad to submit to rigorous checking as to their impartiality.

But, you made the claims here first - your proof first, too.
I said I don't have bookmarked articles so they are hard to find, I apologized because I don't have them ATM and pointed the main point why kids need father and mother. TBF at the end there are not enough kids from same sex families to make some really good studies and you could disregard most of them as baised if you want.
I also said I have one good video of psychiatrist from Slovenia who makes some good points, but it is in Slovenian language so if you want it so badly here it is.
 
I said I don't have bookmarked articles so they are hard to find, I apologized because I don't have them ATM and pointed the main point why kids need father and mother. TBF at the end there are not enough kids from same sex families to make some really good studies and you could disregard most of them as baised if you want.
I also said I have one good video of psychiatrist from Slovenia who makes some good points, but it is in Slovenian language so if you want it so badly here it is.

Why would i disregard them?? If they're conducted in a scientifically rigorous way, why would you disregard them? That is a total copout, as is saying your articles are "hard to find". What is hard to find is legitimate articles from sources that aren't a joke.

And if you really, really want to use that logic, how can YOU say straight parents are better if there isnt enough data to compare?

Give me subtitles and i would be happy to watch that video when im not on my phone.
 
By the way, I see on his facebook (translated) that he uses the same vile paedophile insinuation that I said was used in my country during our referendum. The kind of "im not saying all gays are paedophile, but... you know" kind of stuff, and also that vile conflation that they'd be treated the same in law if gay marriage is passed.

Edit: Ha! I also see people discussing that total red herring of brothers marrying brothers and sisters marrying sisters :rolleyes: All of this kind of stuff was peddled here too to distract from the fact that all of the anti arguments were rubbish and thinly veiled homophobia. Guess what, they lost, and the country has collapsed yet :D
 
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Why would i disregard them?? If they're conducted in a scientifically rigorous way, why would you disregard them? That is a total copout, as is saying your articles are "hard to find". What is hard to find is legitimate articles from sources that aren't a joke.

And if you really, really want to use that logic, how can YOU say straight parents are better if there isnt enough data to compare?

Give me subtitles and i would be happy to watch that video when im not on my phone.
I think you will understand if I say to you that i don't have time to make subtitles for the video because my english is not the best and it would take stupid amount of time that i could make good subtitles.

Ok some evidence for against same sex adoptions: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/lau...-speak-out-against-gay-marriage-federal-court
(CNSNews.com) – Four adult children of same-sex parents have submitted amicus curiae briefs in the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals asking that it oppose the legalization of same-sex “marriage."



The Court, in New Orleans, La., heard arguments on Jan. 9as it considers whether to uphold traditional marriage – defined as being between one man and one woman -- in Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi.

B.N. Klein, Robert Oscar Lopez, Dawn Stefanowicz, and Katy Faust all grew up with homosexual parents. All four argued that redefining marriage to include same-sex couples would harm children by depriving them of a mother or father.

In her brief, Dawn Stefanowicz described her experience living in a same-sex household.

“I wasn’t surrounded by average heterosexual couples,” she says in her court brief. “Dad’s partners slept and ate in our home, and they took me along to meeting places in the LGBT communities. I was exposed to overt sexual activities like sodomy, nudity, pornography, group sex, sadomasochism and the ilk.”

“There was no guarantee that any of my Dad’s partners would be around for long, and yet I often had to obey them,” she said. “My rights and innocence were violated.”

“As children, we are not allowed to express our disagreement, pain and confusion,” Stefanowicz explained. “Most adult children from gay households do not feel safe or free to publicly express their stories and life-long challenges; they fear losing professional licenses, not obtaining employment in their chosen field, being cut off from some family members or losing whatever relationship they have with their gay parent(s). Some gay parents have threatened to leave no inheritance, if the children don’t accept their parent’s partner du jour.”

“I grew up with a parent and her partner in an atmosphere in which gay ideology was used as a tool of repression, retribution and abuse,” B.N. Klein wrote of her experience with a lesbian mother. “I have seen that children in gay households often become props to be publicly displayed to prove that gay families are just like heterosexual ones.”

Klein said she was taught that “some Jews and most Christians were stupid and hated gays and were violent,” and that homosexuals were “much more creative and artistic” because they were not repressed and were naturally more ‘feeling.’”

“At the same time I was given the message that if I did not agree (which I did not), I was stupid and damned to a life of punishing hostility from my mother and her partner,” she recounts. “They did this with the encouragement of all their gay friends in the community and they were like a cheering squad. I was only allowed out of my room to go to school. This could go on for weeks.”

“I was supposed to hate everyone based on what they thought of my mother and her partner,” said Klein. “People’s accomplishments did not matter, their personal struggles did not matter, and their own histories were of no consequence. The only thing that mattered was what they thought of gays.”

Robert Oscar Lopez who was also raised by a lesbian mother and her partner, had a different experience which he described as the “best possible conditions for a child raised by a same-sex couple.”

“Had I been formally studied by same-sex parenting ‘experts’ in 1985, I would have confirmed their rosiest estimations of LGBT family life,” Lopez wrote, but then went on to argue against same-sex marriage saying that, “behind these facades of a happy ‘outcome’ lay many problems.”

He describes experiencing a great deal of sexual confusion due to the lack of a father figure in his life. He turned to a life of prostitution with older men as a teenager.

“I had an inexplicable compulsion to have sex with older males,” he recounted, saying he “wanted to have sex with older men who were my father’s age, though at the time I could scarcely understand what I was doing.”

“The money I received for sex certainly helped me financially because it allowed me certain spending money beyond what I earned with my teenage jobs at a pizzeria and in my mother’s [psychiatric] clinic,” he states in the brief. “But the money was not as impactful as the fact that I needed to feel loved and wanted by an older male figure, even if for only as short as a half hour.”

“As early as ten years ago, I developed a clear stance on homosexual relationships. A civil union or some kind of state recognition would have helped my mother and her partner,” Lopez writes.

“Yet the traditional marriage laws in New York State as they existed back then prevented my mother and her partner from entirely cutting my father out of my life,” he explained. “The latter reality proved pivotal because my re-establishment of ties to my father in 1998 led to a transition in my life, from being lost and sexually confused to being stable and romantically fulfilled.”

Katy Faust, who grew up with a lesbian mother and her partner also testified against gay marriage but clarified that “my advocacy against gay marriage and for the rights of children will never include condemnation of my mother and her partner or details about their private lives.”

“When we institutionalize same-sex marriage,” Faust writes, “we move from permitting citizens the freedom to live as they choose, to promoting same-sex headed households. In doing so, we ignore the true nature of the outcropping of marriage.”

“Now we are normalizing a family structure where a child will always be deprived daily of one gender influence and the relationship with at least one natural parent,” she explains, “Our cultural narrative becomes one that, in essence, tells children that they have no right to the natural family structure or their biological parents, but that children simply exist for the satisfaction of adult desires.”

The 5th Circuit is still considering the legality of state bans on same-sex “marriage” and will issue an opinion in the coming months.

The U.S. Supreme Court announced on Jan. 19 that it will consider gay “marriage” bans in Michigan, Ohio, Kentucky and Tennessee with oral arguments in April and a ruling before the end of the current term in June.
 
By the way, I see on his facebook (translated) that he uses the same vile paedophile insinuation that I said was used in my country during our referendum. The kind of "im not saying all gays are paedophile, but... you know" kind of stuff, and also that vile conflation that they'd be treated the same in law if gay marriage is passed.

Edit: Ha! I also see people discussing that total red herring of brothers marrying brothers and sisters marrying sisters :rolleyes: All of this kind of stuff was peddled here too to distract from the fact that all of the anti arguments were rubbish and thinly veiled homophobia. Guess what, they lost, and the country has collapsed yet :D
He didn't said anything like that...

edit: watched the video what was all about. Clearly someone said that the law don't take away nothing from anyone. He said that you can argue with this sentence even the law that paedophile should get kids because that law don't take away nothing from anyone. He didn't made any connection to gays and paedophiles. He said that it is stupid thinking and that it is not human right to have kids, that it is not a human right for men to be a mother and it is not a human right for woman to be a daughter, that it is not a human right for men to compete in womens sports. That some right are exclusive for one sex.
 
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I'm on my phone here, but in one second I see the name Robert Oscar Lopez and can guess how rubbish the source is likely to be. Seriously, when you get some time, read up on him - anything you could possibly post that uses him as the case study is a load of rubbish.