Global economy - Future stock market collapse..

Tend to agree with both @Raoul and @Insanity tho I dont think the cheap money is still invested in EMs so much as equity markets, corporate bonds that offer a spread over government bonds and all sorts of other high yield assets.

But the bigger point is that the policy measures used to save the system since 2008 have only delayed the inevitable. Things will plod along while policy is accommodative - everything seems OK but the distortions are just building and building - but as soon as markets believe the Fed in particular, but the BoE here as well, are going to normalise things, markets panic.
 
We definitely are heading that way. The QE programs of various developed economies have distorted the value of their currencies and have pumped too much into emerging market economies. A lot of effort has been made post the Lehman crash in '08 to create growth out of nowhere. Now when the Fed will raise rates, there will asset relocation and will lead to a major fight for cash in emerging economies.

The Eurozone has problems of it own. The Euro is overvalued and Europe is dealing with problems of disinflation.

Our Central bank governor, one of the few who predicted the last crash as far back as in 2005, thinks that we are creating a 1929 like situation of competitive devaluation. In his view, various central banks need to come to the table to discuss what is allowed and what is not, otherwise we may revist the great depression soon.
Who's your central bank governor out of interest? Think you are a bit behind the curve on the emerging markets issue. They've underperformed developed markets badly, with the broad MSCI EM index down in four of the last five years. They reckon investors have pulled a $1 trillion out of them over the past year.

Tbf, the original interventions back in 2008 were to prevent a financial meltdown more than anything. As for the issue of the Fed raising rates, this should be offset to an extent by the collapse of the oil price and is so well flagged it's unbelievable.

Tend to agree with both @Raoul and @Insanity tho I dont think the cheap money is still invested in EMs so much as equity markets, corporate bonds that offer a spread over government bonds and all sorts of other high yield assets.

But the bigger point is that the policy measures used to save the system since 2008 have only delayed the inevitable. Things will plod along while policy is accommodative - everything seems OK but the distortions are just building and building - but as soon as markets believe the Fed in particular, but the BoE here as well, are going to normalise things, markets panic.
Am hoping it won't be as bad as the so-called 'taper tantrum' in June 2013 when the Fed talked about raising rates. Hopefully markets can look through it and realise that countries raise rates when the economy is doing well, ie it can be a good thing.

Some stuff will sell-off no doubt. Was reading something about correlation between stocks is now at its widest in years- ie people focusing on fundamentals rather than buying anything, so there will likely be a shake out with weaker companies selling off.
 
Was reading something about correlation between stocks is now at its widest in years- ie people focusing on fundamentals rather than buying anything, so there will likely be a shake out with weaker companies selling off.
It always seems like that trend holds up better in rising markets than falling ones. People were talking about how much more discerning investors had become in 2013 just before the Taper Tantrum - about how investors were looking at EMs as individual credits: what is the current account deficit? Is it an oil importer? How much household debt is there? - but then when panic mode sets in people just sell now and ask questions later.

I'm hoping the same but I have to confess Im worried. It looks like the global panic is subsiding for now, but is that because markets have convinced themselves too much has happened now for the Fed to move in September?
 
It always seems like that trend holds up better in rising markets than falling ones. People were talking about how much more discerning investors had become in 2013 just before the Taper Tantrum - about how investors were looking at EMs as individual credits: what is the current account deficit? Is it an oil importer? How much household debt is there? - but then when panic mode sets in people just sell now and ask questions later.

I'm hoping the same but I have to confess Im worried. It looks like the global panic is subsiding for now, but is that because markets have convinced themselves too much has happened now for the Fed to move in September?

Maybe, but the correlation figure did hint it could actually be the case. That said, you're right of course that all correlations will turn to 1 if there is mass panic.

Oops, looks like that $1 trillion EM outflow story was miscalculated

Emerging Markets (EM) have long been a victim of sensationalist headlines and this trend continues with a high profile story referencing a report that EM had suffered USD 1trn in capital outflows over the past year or so.

No wonder this story grabbed the headlines. After all, USD 1trn is a big number, equivalent roughly to 3% of the EM’s equity and fixed income markets combined. If that much money had left EM it would indeed have been newsworthy.

In reality, outflows of this size never took place. The actual outflows were much, much less – somewhere between USD 183bn and USD 295bn. It turns out that the report arrived at its headline-grabbing USD 1trn outflow number by committing an extremely basic error in balance of payments accounting, an error so rudimentary as to leave one wondering how the report passed even basic peer review.

In fairness to the report and the Financial Times, it is notoriously difficult to measure capital flows, because they are largely unobservable. Economists therefore solve for capital flows in the well-known relationship between the current account, the capital account and changes in foreign exchange reserves:
 
Filling villas and hotels

On a remote patch of swampy farmland about halfway between Beijing and the port city of Tianjin, which was hit by deadly explosions last week, the enormous “Jingjin New City” villa development provides a visual aid for anyone trying to understand the challenges facing China.

A little beyond the Kai Xuan Men — literally “Arc de Triomphe” — entrance gate and adjacent golden statue sits an astonishing 800-room Hyatt Regency built to resemble a European palace.

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Fewer than 10 per cent of the rooms are occupied on any given night, according to staff. The indoor tennis arena and other facilities were locked up and rusting this week. Just seven years after the hotel opened, the building is falling apart and the balconies of many rooms have tall weeds growing on them.

From those balconies guests can look out over what property agents boast is “Asia’s biggest villa complex”, spread over 15 square kilometres. More than 2,000 villas have already been built, hundreds are still under construction and there are plans for another 4,000. The vast majority of the existing villas, built with generous loans from state-owned banks, are empty and some appear abandoned.

The Jingjin development is just part of a much larger 105 sq km planned residential zone — nearly twice the size of Manhattan — and around its edges smaller villa complexes, with names like “Dream Life in Europe”, are frozen in various stages of construction.


“We’ve stopped building and selling villas because nobody is buying,” says the caretaker at the “Dreamland of Town” development on the edge of Jing-jin New City. “I’m not sure if these will ever be finished and put on the market.”

The problem for China’s leaders is that their menu of policy options is more limited than in the pastwave of credit that has been described by economists as the greatest loosening of monetary policy in history.

Total debt in the Chinese economy quadrupled from $7tn in 2007 to $28tn by the middle of last year, according to the McKinsey Global Institute. At 282 per cent of gross domestic product and climbing, China’s debt load was already bigger last year in relative terms than those of Germany and the US.

Heavy lifting

The majority of new credit has gone into property and associated industries such as steel, cement, glass and factories to produce fridges, televisions, light bulbs and the other products people need to put in their new homes.

Much of the debt and construction was taken on by local governments, which were expected to do most of the heavy lifting in boosting GDP and maintaining employment at any cost. The investment and construction boom continued even after Beijing began tightening restrictions on lending and housing purchases as it tried to rein in the resulting credit and property bubbles.

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©FT
The ornate arch marking the entrance to Jingjin New City

When investment in real estate finally began to decline this year it prompted the government to reverse its restrictions on credit and property purchases, and significantly loosen monetary policy through interest rate cuts and state-directed bank lending.

In recent months, China’s leaders have been in continuous crisis mode, rolling out one stimulus measure after another in their efforts to prop up sagging growth.

The most obvious examples have been Beijing’s extraordinary efforts to reverse a stock market collapse last month, which included everything from government stock purchases to criminalising share sales by large investors.

But attempts to support the real economy have been almost as significant.

Last month, the People’s Bank of China pumped nearly $100bn into two state-owned “policy banks” that will fund local government infrastructure projects. The central bank has also allowed these banks to issue trillions of renminbi in bonds to support lending.

Beijing has launched a huge programme that some describe as “quantitative easing with Chinese characteristics”, to swap short-term local government debt for longer-term, lower-cost bonds. But even after this debt swap, local governments will have to make Rmb1tn ($156bn) in interest payments on their existing debt this year alone, according to estimates from JPMorgan.

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The Hyatt Regency hotel in Jingjin New City

Yet income from land sales, which had accounted for an average of 40 per cent of local government revenues, has plummeted in the past year. This means local governments are struggling just to service their growing debts and pay for basic public services, and are in no position to contribute to another stimulus programme such as the one in 2008.

“Local governments’ fiscal constraints were a key cause of the slowdown at the start of the year and have limited the effectiveness of growth stabilisation measures,” says Zhu Haibin, chief China economist at JPMorgan.

The central government has tried to encourage private investment in public infrastructure projects and has poured trillions of renminbi into huge national projects this year, such as rail and road networks, sewage treatment facilities and shantytown redevelopments.

But this has not been enough to offset falling investment in factories and apartment blocks. Last month, fixed asset investment across the country rose by its slowest pace in 15 years.

Property woes

Despite a rebound of housing transactions and prices in recent months in larger cities, the downturn is expected to continue because 70 per cent of property investment happens in smaller cities and places with chronic oversupply such as Jingjin New City.

Even with a recovery in major cities, the property sector will probably subtract 1.5 per cent from GDP growth this year, according to estimates from Wang Tao, chief China economist at UBS.

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The construction slowdown has hammered global commodity prices, with Chinese production of steel, cement, glass and other materials falling by record levels in recent months. As a result of massive overcapacity in these and other industries, average producer prices have been falling for more than three years.

“In the near term, [government] infrastructure investment can directly contribute to GDP growth but may not have much of a multiplier effect in the immediate following years,” says Ms Wang. “In other words, the government will need to more than double the level of new infrastructure investment just to keep overall investment growth steady.”

That seems impossible, especially in the context of existing overinvestment embodied by places such as Jingjin. And thanks to the country’s existing debt load, rampant overcapacity and the bursting of property and equity bubbles, China’s available options for stimulating growth are far fewer than they were during past crises.

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It is in that context that Beijing reached last week for a weapon it has refrained from deploying for more than two decades. As China’s leaders have long known, devaluing the currency is a risky move because it can trigger currency wars — ultimately leaving the country no better off. In the wake of China’s move last week, Malaysia’s ringgit and Indonesia’s rupiah both fell to their lowest levels against the dollar since the depths of the 1998 Asian crisis.

But China’s crucial export sector has performed worse this year than at any point since 2008. Last week’s devaluation came just days after the government said exports in July fell 8.3 per cent from the same month a year earlier.

Podcast
China contagion spreads

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Roger Blitz and Jane Foley of Rabobank discuss the repercussions of China’s economic weakness, with emerging market fundamentals laid bare and the Fed’s dilemma over when to move on interest rates intensified.

“We believe that the renminbi [foreign exchange] devaluations are aimed at stimulating the export sector after the authorities recently realised that domestic demand alone is unable to stabilise the economy,” says Li Junheng at JL Warren Capital.

China’s central bank has publicly ridiculed the idea that it wants to devalue the renminbi by at least 10 per cent against the dollar. But with growth rates still falling and few other options left, that is exactly what some mid-ranking and retired officials in Beijing think the country’s leaders would like to see in the coming months.

Facing a sharp slowdown at home and few tools to deal with it, China does not seem to be in a position to show the resolve it displayed in the late 1990s and 2008. Instead, its leaders appear to have concluded that they must risk a currency war abroad.
 
Do you mean contracts for difference? I've heard some nasty stories about people being gapped out of their positions this morning.

Exactly this, opened 3 new positions on Friday, never traded CFD before, I limited my losses, but all went yesterday to my sell off point. I put in what I was willing to lose, and really I wanted to use the CFD account for some more certain opportunities. My trading history goes back about 4 years, still up, but yesterday was not a good day.
 
Feck, when I left the office, the S&P 500 was about 2.5% up, but apparently it closed 1.3% after a late dive. I'm on the 7am market shift tomorrow...lord knows what it'll bring.
 
Who's your central bank governor out of interest? Think you are a bit behind the curve on the emerging markets issue. They've underperformed developed markets badly, with the broad MSCI EM index down in four of the last five years. They reckon investors have pulled a $1 trillion out of them over the past year.

Tbf, the original interventions back in 2008 were to prevent a financial meltdown more than anything. As for the issue of the Fed raising rates, this should be offset to an extent by the collapse of the oil price and is so well flagged it's unbelievable.

Raghuram Rajan. He was the IMF chief economist from 2003-2006.

At the 2005 Jacksonhole symposium, he presented a paper "Has Financial Development Made the World Riskier', which predicted the fall. Summer's called him a luddite. :lol:

I think your subsequent post covers the second part of the post.

Feck, when I left the office, the S&P 500 was about 2.5% up, but apparently it closed 1.3% after a late dive. I'm on the 7am market shift tomorrow...lord knows what it'll bring.

No one fecking knows, bud, no one. It's easy to say that most astute traders are sitting on shorts, but I think the prudent thing to do right now is to be in cash and then wait and watch how it unravels.

Next couple of weeks hopefully will make the picture more lucid.
 
China builds towns and cities that nobody can afford to live in just to keep the construction industry working. It wont be long before they will be tearing down unlived in towns to build them again.

Very Keynesian. JMK once wrote that, faced with high unemployment, the Government might profitably employ people to dig holes and fill them in again.
 
Brazil is heading into major recession too as things stand.

Interesting longer read on it here, shorter quotes below, if you gloss through the Carnval references - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/12/brazil-carnival-economic-crisis-recession

Until recently, it seemed the country could do no wrong. Thanks to a global commodity boom, strong demand from China and the discovery of huge offshore oil reserves, the economy surged forward at an annual average of 4.5% between 2002 and 2011.

Today, however, it seems nothing can go right. Prices of oil, iron ore and soya have plunged, China is slowing down and Brazil’s policymakers are too absorbed in political battles and bribery investigations to focus effectively on the countermeasures.

Decision making has been paralysed for much of the past year by a cascade of calamities: the country’s biggest corruption scandal, its worst environmental disaster, and an impeachment battle against the president.

Any one of them would rock a country in a normal year. Combined, they have crippled business and consumer confidence.

After shrinking by 3.71% last year, GDP is predicted to decline by a further 2.95% in 2015. The last time Brazil experienced such a deep slump was in 1901, when soldiers were still fighting the last Indian war and aviator Santos Dumont was making a name for himself by flying around the Eiffel Tower in a dirigible.

Analysts are struggling to keep up with the speed of the deterioration. For 13 weeks in a row, the 100 or so private sector financial institutions surveyed in the the Central Bank’s Boletin Focus survey have been forced to lower their forecasts for Brazil’s economy. Yet reality continues to outstrip their pessimism.

The list of woes makes for spectacularly grim reading: as well as the deepest, this is forecast to be the most prolonged decline since the Great Depression of the 1930s. In December, consumer sentiment as measured by the Getulio Vargas Foundation in December reached a record low. The main stock index – Ibovespa –has fallen to a point not seen in six years and inflation is rising faster than at any time in 12 years, reaching 10.67% in 2015.

Foreign exchange markets have reflected the decline. In 2015, the real depreciated more than any other major currency, pushing up the price of imports.
 
Brazil is heading into major recession too as things stand.

Interesting longer read on it here, shorter quotes below, if you gloss through the Carnval references - http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/12/brazil-carnival-economic-crisis-recession

Brazil is already in a major recession. The currency has nosedived in recent years as the bubble burst, and the corruption charges etc aren't helping with external investment. Most of the oil majors are giving a wide berth to the exploration blocks that have been auctioned in the last few years.
 
Sometime in 10-20 years Brazil will appear to be booming again... and it'll crash again. And so it plows along at a long-term steady state of about 30%-40% the GDP per Capita of developed nations.
 
It will be intersting to see how china deals with its aging population problem and pensions in the next 5 - 10 years.. Whos going to make my iPhone!

Someone told me its starting to become as expensive to manufacture in China as it is in other countries. Not sure how much of that I believe but the person is ACCA and MBA accredited and currently CFO at a very large pharma.
 
India is the only BRICS nation that has a comfortable outlook for 2016. It might not have made the news with sexy statistics, but it hasn't forged any numbers as blatantly as China, isn't dependent on the whims of commodities like Brazil, and doesn't have economic sanctions on it like Russia. India has just grown slowly - maybe too slowly? - but steadily. The fact that it shook off China shuddering and the US raising interest rates is pretty impressive. Maybe one to watch in the next 5 years.
 
Sometime in 10-20 years Brazil will appear to be booming again... and it'll crash again. And so it plows along at a long-term steady state of about 30%-40% the GDP per Capita of developed nations.
Man you guys had the bad luck of having the Portuguese colonizing Brazil :lol: I almost moved there in 1974 after the revolution here but my dad found out after the military gave the power to the civilians the economy was as bad as in Portugal, anyway a lot of my family lives there my great grandfather "moved" there after a few problems with the political police.
 
Man you guys had the bad luck of having the Portuguese colonizing Brazil :lol: I almost moved there in 1974 after the revolution here but my dad found out after the military gave the power to the civilians the economy was as bad as in Portugal, anyway a lot of my family lives there my great grandfather "moved" there after a few problems with the political police.

Good decision. Yeah, I'm of the opinion that the Portuguese and Spaniards weren't as enlightened as the Brits by the 18th century, and it rubbed off. But by now, nearly 200 years after independence, Brazil's issues are all its own making. Because I am Brazilian I can thankfully say this without that much backlash: I think our culture itself is corrupt, people are corrupt as a way of life. Most people are charlatans, lack any appreciation of hard work, honesty, organization. They want all the reward, none of the work.

Basically, I hope to never live there again for the rest of my life. But I'm still saddened by its impoverishment, and the decay of its institutions.
 
India is the only BRICS nation that has a comfortable outlook for 2016. It might not have made the news with sexy statistics, but it hasn't forged any numbers as blatantly as China, isn't dependent on the whims of commodities like Brazil, and doesn't have economic sanctions on it like Russia. India has just grown slowly - maybe too slowly? - but steadily. The fact that it shook off China shuddering and the US raising interest rates is pretty impressive. Maybe one to watch in the next 5 years.

They have an excellent manufacturing base, transparent economy, competent democratic government, young population and easy access to emerging markets in Africa and Asia. Their non-reliance on commodities like you mentioned is a blessing in disguise. If markets worldwide crash, everyone is going down, yet India may have a softer landing than other countries.
 
India is the only BRICS nation that has a comfortable outlook for 2016. It might not have made the news with sexy statistics, but it hasn't forged any numbers as blatantly as China, isn't dependent on the whims of commodities like Brazil, and doesn't have economic sanctions on it like Russia. India has just grown slowly - maybe too slowly? - but steadily. The fact that it shook off China shuddering and the US raising interest rates is pretty impressive. Maybe one to watch in the next 5 years.

It almost seems the India thing to do, tread cautiously but optimistically and then win. Fair play I say.
 
Good decision. Yeah, I'm of the opinion that the Portuguese and Spaniards weren't as enlightened as the Brits by the 18th century, and it rubbed off. But by now, nearly 200 years after independence, Brazil's issues are all its own making. Because I am Brazilian I can thankfully say this without that much backlash: I think our culture itself is corrupt, people are corrupt as a way of life. Most people are charlatans, lack any appreciation of hard work, honesty, organization. They want all the reward, none of the work.

Basically, I hope to never live there again for the rest of my life. But I'm still saddened by its impoverishment, and the decay of its institutions.

That's not what I've encountered to be honest, but I know that corruption is rife, and there are loads of crooks. I've only had exposure to a small sub section of Brazilian society, my Father in law is a very successful entrepreneur, and came from a humble background, and all the family and friends seem the same. Since retiring he's investing his time and money in building social housing in the North East of Brazil, and other social projects, my mother in law spends all her time with the church and their local projects. There are some good folks out there.
 
Good decision. Yeah, I'm of the opinion that the Portuguese and Spaniards weren't as enlightened as the Brits by the 18th century, and it rubbed off. But by now, nearly 200 years after independence, Brazil's issues are all its own making. Because I am Brazilian I can thankfully say this without that much backlash: I think our culture itself is corrupt, people are corrupt as a way of life. Most people are charlatans, lack any appreciation of hard work, honesty, organization. They want all the reward, none of the work.

Basically, I hope to never live there again for the rest of my life. But I'm still saddened by its impoverishment, and the decay of its institutions.
You can say the same about Portugal, Spain and Italy
 
That's not what I've encountered to be honest, but I know that corruption is rife, and there are loads of crooks. I've only had exposure to a small sub section of Brazilian society, my Father in law is a very successful entrepreneur, and came from a humble background, and all the family and friends seem the same. Since retiring he's investing his time and money in building social housing in the North East of Brazil, and other social projects, my mother in law spends all her time with the church and their local projects. There are some good folks out there.

But the bad folks outnumber the good folks and they lead the country.
 
There's still quite a bit far down to go (despite today's bounce).
 
Can someone explain a bit in layman terms what causes a stock market to collapse? What does it even mean when a stock market collapses? That most of the stocks traded on that market suddenly decline in value?