These clowns do post some gems.Instant gratification?! He's been here for more than a year. Anyway we don't want instant gratification, just less constant shite. We've all observed Van Gaal and we see a mediocre manager.
Who still has faith in The Philosophy? / LVG Supporters' Thread
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
These clowns do post some gems.Instant gratification?! He's been here for more than a year. Anyway we don't want instant gratification, just less constant shite. We've all observed Van Gaal and we see a mediocre manager.
Having observed him quite a bit at United, I'm not sure he deserves the nickname 'van goal'
This could have been a good thread. Having read many posts from both sides of the argument, I think that people should learn to debate more calmly and more than ever not twist what someone else has said to the extreme. I happen to think Van Gaal should have been sacked a while ago but out of curiosity I try to genuinely understand the POV of his supporters. It can be challenging to say the least, specially when it is mentioned how his contribution has lasting effects on teams.
I have no faith in Van Gaal's philosophy. It robs the players of their joy for the game, it produces slow, tentative and boring football and it's too easy to predict and defend, thus leading to defeat at the hands of otherwise inferior squads.
LVG must not only be sacked, but his philosophy consigned to the rubbish heap.
LVG must not only be sacked, but his philosophy consigned to the rubbish heap.
Building for the next manager my @ss. Why the feck would we need him to build for the next manager when he was brought in to win now. He himself stated that it would take 3 months for the players to understand his bullshite, challenge for the title in his 2nd season and win it in the 3rd. Now it's about building for the next manager. How about Woody fire his @ss and let the next manager rebuild for himself with the players he wants.
Talking purely about the philosophy, is there any evidence of such a style of football ever working in England? I've never seen a team ever being successful playing that way.
Even in his own career. When's the last time LVG used it to any real effect? AZ played counter attacking football, the dutch shut up shop and depended on Robben and RVP to beat the other team. He was sacked at Barca and Bayern. Are we supposed to go back 20 years to his time at Ajax?
Even in his own career. When's the last time LVG used it to any real effect? AZ played counter attacking football, the dutch shut up shop and depended on Robben and RVP to beat the other team. He was sacked at Barca and Bayern. Are we supposed to go back 20 years to his time at Ajax?
Excellent. So, he is building the foundations and losing games, tarnishing his own reputation, so the next manager can reap the benefits, gain credit and win.
If LVG gets sacked and we end up winning trophies in 5 years, LVG will be the guy credited.
Some people have already done this.
Don't forget that Barca and Bayern are great teams today, because LVG laid the foundations.
Good post. I like LVG and defended him til about 3 weeks ago when I think he had run out of ideas.
His philosophy may not have worked but one legacy he will surely leave behind is our team are far better at retaining the ball than we were under SAF. I think he has improved the technical aspects of all his players and any new incoming manager will benefit from that.
Exactly this. His tenure may not have gone as hoped but the team he will leave behind is undoubtedly better than the one he inherited. Baffling that so many cant see that.
As much as one can hate LVG, this cannot be denied IMHO.
Too bad that this ball retention goes tits up whenever we are under some kind of pressure. Twice in the last few games we have failed to hold on to a lead or a draw because we weren't able to retain the ball when we needed to and just hoofed it to the opposition players.
Ball retention is easier when you are slowly passing it between the goalie, defenders and defensive midfielders, with the opposition sitting back. What really matters is doing it at pace or in situations when you need to find your way out of pressure; we fail to do it under either.
I can definitely agree. Ball retention has improved in general but improvement means feck all if it is limited in a certain context.
Jesus. This bs again.
Do you think Fergie could not have gotten the players to pass the ball aimlessly and racking up great possession stats if he wanted to? He didn't because it's utterly pointless. It's come to a point where teams willingly sit back and let us have the ball because every man and his dog knows we won't do anything with it. Our brand of possession football consists of passing it around aimlessly until someone hoofs it. Retaining the ball means absolutely nothing if you're not going to do it properly and with intent. The last time I checked the highest possession stats we've recorded in a game was under Moyes and I don't think anyone needs two guesses to which game that was.
He's not leaving behind any legacy. He's leaving behind an absolute fecking nightmare that should all be undone ASAP.
Don't usually agree with @Akash but this is exactly right. Retaining the ball is an end for Louis while it is a means for many other managers. This whole idea of domination is nothing but a pitiful illusion because it is exactly what opponents let us do. There's clearly been zero work done in terms of improving our movement and ability to work the channels and pockets of space the way Arsenal do so well. Nor has there been any work done to improve our ability to split defences at speed. It certainly hasn't showed itself under LVG.
also don't forget that the success always kicks in after LVG leaves, which means he can't be successful while he's the manager.
They really don't do it that well, actually. Just much, much better than us. But they are clearly quite mediocre. As of right now, they are on course to reach 74 points which would be barely enough for top four in most seasons and they only scored 41 goals in 26 league games. They only scored eight goals more than United. Everton outscored them so far!
I don't even think it's the best Arsenal team of the past five years or so. The perception that they are really really good comes from nothing but our utter and complete hopelessness. We are awful and the teams above us look brilliant in comparison.
Spot on really.
This place can be funny with delusion sometimes, there was a similar thread earlier in the season .
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/if-van-gaal-doesnt-win-a-title-with-us-ill-still-consider-him-a-success.
It's bizarre to see that even still after months of absolute shiteness unfolding in front of united fans eyes, week in week out, we still see threads like these.
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The Aliens will arrive in the next 10-20 years and the first words when coming out of their ships to the worlds press will be "blaba blaba bleebo abada didly kebab boing boing da do hippy skippy ratta tatvtat beep oooooooh LVG unda Manchester United!!"
Rough translation, "we came to earth, not because of your nuclear weapons or your growing technological advancements but because of the philosophy of LVG at Manchester United!".
Rough translation, "we came to earth, not because of your nuclear weapons or your growing technological advancements but because of the philosophy of LVG at Manchester United!".
Dunno why that thread was locked.
The people who continually peddled the foundation bollocks need to be called up on their shite.
Aye they are fecking ruining this once great club.
Absolutely sham. I'm glad we agree!
Think it was locked for what can only be described as 'redcafe politics'..
Can't have certain posters who have a perception of possessing great football knowledge basically talking nonsense.
It's a pity because it's a thread that left open the opportunity to reflect and analyse, now and at the end of the season.
What's quite alarming is the amount of people who agreed with it.
A poor version of it with a badly managed Ajax with mediocre players managed to beat Ferguson's United at OT, which is located in England, with it only a few years ago.
AZ was one win away from the title with it, that LvG used a different style because he had different players in the year he actually won it didn't make the difference. Bayern was one win away from the treble with it, the Netherlands were one player away of taking it to the WC after a very good qualifying with it.
Or you just didn't pay much attention. It is too fragile with the players available, but against Chelsea it wat clear that it could work and a team with lesser players can dominate and create lots of chances against a team with better players. I think in terms of style of play they did a lot better than PSG did against Chelsea. PSG of course has the better players and was attack minded too, but the didn't really have a plan. The movement wasn't organized but improvised, and therefore not instant and less surprising and effective, considering the quality of the players.
That is too fragile means that LvG didn't pull it off here and there's reason to lose the faith that he's able to change that. But it's nonsense to discard (this part of) the philosophy just because it lacks consistency with the available players.
oh look, Mrs VanGaal turned up just in time
You're citing one game when I can cite every other game where we have been sterile and slow in possession.
Nonsense to discard what part of the philosophy? Possession of the ball? Nobody's actually said that. Not even me. What I said was Louis sees possession as an end game, not a means to winning. It's reflected in every one of our games.
Instant gratification?! He's been here for more than a year. Anyway we don't want instant gratification, just less constant shite. We've all observed Van Gaal and we see a mediocre manager.
What's clown-ish is the fact you expect a manager to win things with a squad that was already
a) old
b) a squad that lost out to city and won ONLY again due to Van Persie ( again Old) & SAF
We could win it, but then again, Van gaal is the complete opposite manager to the one we should be hiring ( right, you would love to hear that again). We should be buying every 26-28 year old superstar, rinse and repeat. Circle around including the chopping and
changing of managers.
Not bad. Afterall, it's not like madrid is significantly under Barcelona. Your acting like Chelsea are the most consistent team, City are consistent, PSG are wonderful in Europe.
To become like Barcelona & Bayern, AKA untouchable, you need to build a team that is ultimately untouchable and unbreakable never mind which manager manages them; be that an ill tito-vilanova or Luis enrique.
You do know Luis Enrique managed Celta to 9th before taking over Barcelona
.They could not give a utter crap who the manager is because the team is good.
Seriously is that meant to be funny. It's not for me, but I could say the same about you being Mrs Mourinho & how Jose is the next charlie sheen and gets all the thick but hot chicks strolling to his pad.
My lord. If you say success is the heartbeat of this club rather than a resultant of a combination of loyalty, entertainment, progression of youth and Home grown talent; I'm just at confusion at how you can say pro-van gaal supporters are ruining the club.
You can hate him but
A) He has left a younger squad relatively capable of achieving a better league position to champions under moyes
B) He has left a squad capable of playing possession football
C) He has left a squad who can play multiple different formations
D) A Net Spend of 110M is not much
E) Given chances to youth who will likely spend all their life at United
F) The Gaps in our squad is quantifiable, Mourinho or any manager that comes in knows that we need a RW, a CF, a CM and a CB ( in receding order). Ultimately what is left is a plan that is easily workable.
E) The most important being; He has made us play as a team and not individuals. Yes we could be much better at winning games and scoring goals, but team work is something that cannot be bought.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2565...ou-cant-buy-a-great-team?ICID=HP_HN_HP_RI_0_1
There, for all you people thinking we are the ones ruining this once great club
; another player that sp*ts on your see through capabilities.You want success and you want to buy it.
Funny thing is that even if Mourinho comes, him being successful does not prove neither of me nor you wrong. That's why I have always said, after Van Gaal comes intelligent players playing under managers with OTHER tactics.
Anybody who thinks that 'the PHILOSOPHY' is possesion football need to get there heads checked
It's a way of playing the same way, so as a team we can read the game and see trajectories of weaknesses. It's a way that players from youth to senior football play in the same way so replacements are constant & always ready. It's a way of building intelligence of players almost like a school would. That's why he has managed Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern and now United.. He is good at building the school but ultimately not the man to take them to university.
I was taking the piss out of Akash what it's worth.
@Santiago_Kin Bonkers
for the record, that comment was for Dr Funk.
secondly i'm no Mourinho advocate but I'd sooner have dusty bin sitting in the dugout than Van Gaal that's how much respect I have now for the man lucky to be sitting there stealing a wage
for the record, that comment was for Dr Funk.
secondly i'm no Mourinho advocate but I'd sooner have dusty bin sitting in the dugout than Van Gaal that's how much respect I have now for the man lucky to be sitting there stealing a wage
A) Really? I'll be shocked if we finish higher than 7th this year. Our form tells us we're heading in one direction.
B) Because under Fergie we couldn't keep possession?
C) Can we? I swear every time we switch to a 532 we look a mess (see Watford)
D) Oh there it is, the net spend defence. The defence that saw Rafa apologists excuse his years of mediocre transfer dealings.
E) Given youth a chance in the sense of throwing them in as a last resort due to his lacklustre squad management and transfer dealings.
F) I'd argue we also need a RB and a further two CM'S, which is madness, considering three have come in since he took over.
G) Your fishing with that last comment. We didnt look like a team against Wolfsburg, Norwich, Arsenal, Sunderland, oh I could go on. The reason why we don't look like a team of individuals is because we have ONLY ONE player capable of winning a game on his individual talent. The rest are too cowardly to do anything and take things into their hands. I guess in that sense we do play as a team, in that we're a team full of gutless cowards.
true thatI dunno what teamwork he's referring to, unless he means how they have all pulled together to play rubbish at the same time
That would be a good argument against the opinion that everything is all right, which is not mine.
And that's nonsense. Of course you have to learn how to play the possession game before you can play it well. This progress has not been made quick, it has not been linear, and it has not been stable in the sense that once it was made, it stayed. The manager is responsible so there's plenty to criticise him, you don't need this nonsense to do that.
You can hate him but
A) He has left a younger squad relatively capable of achieving a better league position to champions under moyes
B) He has left a squad capable of playing possession football
C) He has left a squad who can play multiple different formations
D) A Net Spend of 110M is not much
E) Given chances to youth who will likely spend all their life at United
F) The Gaps in our squad is quantifiable, Mourinho or any manager that comes in knows that we need a RW, a CF, a CM and a CB ( in receding order). Ultimately what is left is a plan that is easily workable.
E) The most important being; He has made us play as a team and not individuals. Yes we could be much better at winning games and scoring goals, but team work is something that cannot be bought.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2565...ou-cant-buy-a-great-team?ICID=HP_HN_HP_RI_0_1
Funny thing is that even if Mourinho comes, him being successful does not prove neither of me nor you wrong. That's why I have always said, after Van Gaal comes intelligent players playing under managers with OTHER tactics.
Anybody who thinks that 'the PHILOSOPHY' is possesion football need to get there heads checked
It's a way of playing the same way, so as a team we can read the game and see trajectories of weaknesses. It's a way that players from youth to senior football play in the same way so replacements are constant & always ready. It's a way of building intelligence of players almost like a school would. That's why he has managed Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern and now United.. He is good at building the school but ultimately not the man to take them to university.
Liked a lot of that. He's certainly tried to make the players think for themselves during the games - hence not being on the sidelines etc. As a result, a lot of dithering and safe bets especially from the older players but it's a more modern approach that will hopefully pay dividends in the future.
Generally I don't think we're doing well enough, quickly enough under him and there has been so much utter shite tumescent football along with frequent embarrassments. Still, not calling for his head quite yet.
as well as possesion football does not need to be the end goal at all. Mourinho could come and park the bus when he is here & suddenly have a team able to pass out on the counter-attack & not just relying on someone like fabregas to do all the work.
What's clown-ish is the fact you expect a manager to win things with a squad that was already
a) old
b) a squad that lost out to city and won ONLY again due to Van Persie ( again Old) & SAF
We could win it, but then again, Van gaal is the complete opposite manager to the one we should be hiring ( right, you would love to hear that again). We should be buying every 26-28 year old superstar, rinse and repeat. Circle around including the chopping and
changing of managers.
Not bad. Afterall, it's not like madrid is significantly under Barcelona. Your acting like Chelsea are the most consistent team, City are consistent, PSG are wonderful in Europe.
To become like Barcelona & Bayern, AKA untouchable, you need to build a team that is ultimately untouchable and unbreakable never mind which manager manages them; be that an ill tito-vilanova or Luis enrique.
You do know Luis Enrique managed Celta to 9th before taking over Barcelona
They could not give a utter crap who the manager is because the team is good.
Seriously is that meant to be funny. It's not for me, but I could say the same about you being Mrs Mourinho & how Jose is the next charlie sheen and gets all the thick but hot chicks strolling to his pad.
My lord. If you say success is the heartbeat of this club rather than a resultant of a combination of loyalty, entertainment, progression of youth and Home grown talent; I'm just at confusion at how you can say pro-van gaal supporters are ruining the club.
You can hate him but
A) He has left a younger squad relatively capable of achieving a better league position to champions under moyes
B) He has left a squad capable of playing possession football
C) He has left a squad who can play multiple different formations
D) A Net Spend of 110M is not much
E) Given chances to youth who will likely spend all their life at United
F) The Gaps in our squad is quantifiable, Mourinho or any manager that comes in knows that we need a RW, a CF, a CM and a CB ( in receding order). Ultimately what is left is a plan that is easily workable.
E) The most important being; He has made us play as a team and not individuals. Yes we could be much better at winning games and scoring goals, but team work is something that cannot be bought.
http://www.goal.com/en-gb/news/2565...ou-cant-buy-a-great-team?ICID=HP_HN_HP_RI_0_1
There, for all you people thinking we are the ones ruining this once great club
You want success and you want to buy it.
Funny thing is that even if Mourinho comes, him being successful does not prove neither of me nor you wrong. That's why I have always said, after Van Gaal comes intelligent players playing under managers with OTHER tactics.
Anybody who thinks that 'the PHILOSOPHY' is possesion football need to get there heads checked
It's a way of playing the same way, so as a team we can read the game and see trajectories of weaknesses. It's a way that players from youth to senior football play in the same way so replacements are constant & always ready. It's a way of building intelligence of players almost like a school would. That's why he has managed Ajax, Barcelona, Bayern and now United.. He is good at building the school but ultimately not the man to take them to university.
What a bunch of B.S. When precious LvG took over, Vidic, Rio and Evra had already left. RvP was and is still usable in the right situations, apart from that, how was the squad old? As for leaving the squad younger, take any person who knows anything about football and they will be able to do the same thing with a bit of money.
I assume Iv built a reputation for being Van gaal's second in charge.. I am a supporter of his, however I am more importantly a supporter of United. It's been a horrible season & it has been from the start from looking at the squad we started with.
The reason I had started backing him even before he had started to fall is because there was a small percentage that IF - what his previous players say is true and that he is a manager with eyes 10 years from now; it is unfair to judge him to the same regards as someone like Mourinho ( who has no ability to build but only buy). I assume that would sounds 'bonkers' to some that they should not be compared in the same league; but it is no difference to rating martial now to costa, lingard to willian or depay to hazard.
There has to be a perspective to these things. Saying that, it's his job and not ours and if he doesnt meet expectations that we set on him; then that is his fault.
Many ex & current players constantly say, (yet the forum neglects as 'gossip') that he did initiate the start up process at the arguably now the 2 unbeatable clubs. Bayern hiring guardiola didnt really make them all that much better than Barca? I have a feeling the only way to one day come out on top of Bayern & Barcelona is to learn from their mistakes & be a bit more lenient with Van Gaal than other clubs had been previously.
Fire him now & I'm sure some of the kids have already learnt enough of him to one day grow up and compete with the big boys. If we want to be the absolute best in the world; let the kid's learn a little more at least to the end of the season - they still have plenty of improvement to do.
Nani, RVP, Hernandez, Rafael, Rio, Vidic, Lindegaard, kagawa, fletcher, giggs off the top of my mind are not here anymore. Whether that is all down to LVG or not is meaningless when they have been replaced with the likes of Shaw, Martial, Memphis, Lingard, CBJ, Mcnair, Blackett, Rojo, pereira.
That again may not be all accurate but it shows you what he has been part of. whether one player or two left after moyes is no different as they were by no means anyway part of this clubs future under van gaal.
What's more interesting rather than getting rid of old players is that;
a) our old players are really old
b) our young players are really young
in a squad of 35 there is only 8 players at the age of 26-30? Arguably a players peak years? Tell me if LVG's sole objective was to win things here instantly- why would he have such low peaking players and have 22 players under the age of 25 coupled with 5 players over the age of 30 - im assuming for experience?
It mathematically does not make sense. His target is clearly the players under 25 who will enter their peak rather than the players who are at their peak or over it.
Really. So despite their current high levels and drastic improvement since sacking Van gaal, are you suggesting that we would surpass them if we KEEP Van Gaal? Based on what? What mistakes have they made in sacking Van Gaal? each club has made atleast 2 Champions League finals and won multiple league titles since getting rid. And the start up process as Barcelona solely involves handing out a few debuts. That's not exactly a start up process now is it? Many managers have given debuts to top players. Its just what happens when you manage a club with a strong academy. Factor in the players that he didn't give their debuts to such as Messi, Busquets, etc then I don't see how HE initiated their success. Puyol, Xavi, Valdez, Iniesta I know he handed debuts too, but how many games did they play under him and how much did he develop them? my guess very little. You are over exaggerating his achievements.
Those were players that LvG chose to get rid of, players who had won the league title in a canter under Fergie. He chose to get rid of those players because he decided he could not work with them for whatever reason. Now it looks like he cannot get performances from players that he kept or brought.