As I've said, playing in the EL is a step down if you have the opportunity to play in the CL. I don't see how you can deny it.
Europa League 2015/2016
- Thread starter R'hllor
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
As I've said, playing in the EL is a step down if you have the opportunity to play in the CL. I don't see how you can deny it.
Nope. Mind you, Spurs fans still deny that Kane is an Arsenal fan just like they denied Bale was one. It's hilarious how much these small 'victories' mean to them.
He was part of the Arsenal youth-setup back then though wasn't he? Only to be released within a year or something like that.
I'd maybe get that kind of reasoning from a Barca, Real or Bayern fan. But from Spurs? That's just hilarious.
Not at the time of that photo. I think he was in the Freddie Ljungberg fan club that day.
No, what's hilarious is imagining that any Spurs player is going to want to abandon Pochettino and the CL to go and play for Man. Utd in the EL with god-knows-who as manager.
It's funny how hung up you are on United.
18:00 GMT fixtures
Leverkusen - Villareal (0-2)
Valencia - Bilbao (0-1)
Lazio - Sparta Prague (1-1)
20:05 GMT fixtures
Anderlecht - Donetsk (1-3)
Braga - Fenerbahce (0-1)
Sevilla - Basel (0-0)
United - Liverpool (0-2)
Tottenham - BVB (0-3)
Results from the 1st legs are in brackets.
I expect to reach the QFs:
Villareal, Valencia, Lazio, Donetsk, Fener, Sevilla, BVB. United - Liverpool will be decided via penalty shoot out.
Leverkusen - Villareal (0-2)
Valencia - Bilbao (0-1)
Lazio - Sparta Prague (1-1)
20:05 GMT fixtures
Anderlecht - Donetsk (1-3)
Braga - Fenerbahce (0-1)
Sevilla - Basel (0-0)
United - Liverpool (0-2)
Tottenham - BVB (0-3)
Results from the 1st legs are in brackets.
I expect to reach the QFs:
Villareal, Valencia, Lazio, Donetsk, Fener, Sevilla, BVB. United - Liverpool will be decided via penalty shoot out.
I'll be traveling to Leverkussen to cheer Villareal into the next round. Since they are finally close (ish) to Amsterdam, the company can finally see the team that we've been working for this season. Extra bonus is us being in the away end with the supporters from Spain. Should be great!
Not a chance.
Atmosphere is probably going to be atrocious though.
I'm happy to be proven wrong but think it's very possible Valencia makes it again.
If they were in the Leverkusen stands most probably yes. But if they have tickets among the away fans, it should be fun.
Weaste would disagree with you.
At least we lasted longer in Europe than Arsenal or Chelsea, even if we are clinging on by our fingertips
We do yeah, traveling with 3 cars from Amsterdam. Should be fun with the Spanish dudes at least.
Except it's not that hilarious because it happens all the time, and is exactly what Spurs (a pretty much perennial Europa League club) rely on when they poach players from CL clubs like Ajax etc.
The same rules apply.
It would hardly be ridiculous for a player to take a less immediate view of their career and decide to join a club that they feel is more likely to succeed long-term, and where both the personal rewards and fame are on another level.
This isn't just a United-Spurs thing, it's a more general point, as it happens everywhere and in all lines of work.
I imagine Pochettino is going to field pretty much the same weakened team tonight as before ... especially since the tie is already effectively over given the 3 - 0 deficit.
Hey ho .... onwards to our league match on Sunday.
Hey ho .... onwards to our league match on Sunday.
Ajax play in a much weaker domestic league, where players will often jump at the chance to move to the Prem regardless of CL vs EL football. But no such consideration applies to Spurs players in relation to Man. Utd, since both clubs are obviously already in the Prem.
As for the 'long-term' perspective, for the 2nd time in 3 seasons it looks like (a) United are going to finish outside the top 4; and (b) Spurs are going to finish above United. When does a supposed short-term 'blip' become something else?
So I say again, it's hilarious to imagine that any Spurs player would want to abandon Pochettino and the CL to go and play for Man. Utd in the EL with god-knows-who as manager.
Money talks louder than words, always!
I was thinking he might surprise Dortmund and play your full strength team, but given that most of your players will probably be playing for their International teams I guess he won't. At least you have Bournemouth at home on Sunday so no player travelling needed which will help recovery time a wee bit.
Probably pick the same team for the 1st half and see if they can redeem themselves and then if the tie is close he can bring on Kane, Alli etc to make the difference.
As for your squad, only way any of them would leave is if Pochettino left and that doesn't seem like happening. I'm more interested to see who you'll bring in tbh.
I think it would be pretty ridiculous to field a full strength team after last thursday. It would give the last match a lot more meaning, it would raise a lot of questions (like why would he rest players for Villa but not for Bournemouth) and even with their full first team the chances are minimal at best.
We're not talking about money vs words. We're talking about money vs the chance to play in the CL, stay with the same manager and stay part of a squad that has excellent team spirit and will likely only improve due its young average age. And even then we're talking about enough extra money to cause player X to actively agitate for a move, bearing in mind that Spurs players would already be looking forward to CL bonus money.
No Spurs player is going to actively agitate for a move simply to go and play for United in the EL .... regardless of any wages hike offered.
The game is done by HT if he picks the same team. We score once and the tie is immeadiately over. They have to score three times just to make OT without exposing themselves in the back. They gave up the tie before the first leg even started and they were on even ground. Why should they change now while facing this kind of uphill battle?
The tie is already over imo. They've no chance coming back from a 3-0 deficit.
I'd always give the same team a chance to redeem themselves in front of their home crowd. If they do manage to claw their way back in the tie then you have the big hitters to come off the bench and make a real difference. If however the ties over then you've given the big hitters a rest before the dreaded International Break.
It is extremely likely, yeah. I don´t think even at full strength Spurs has what it takes to put three behind us without conceeding.
You're under estimating their first team if you think that. They have the ability to turn it around if they played their strongest eleven, but they obviously won't so you're fine. You can afford to play your strongest eleven for the rest of the competition knowing that your 2nd place is pretty safe and there's no way you can catch Bayern. You're probably in the best position to win the Tournament really.
Is he? Dortmund have conceded three goals total since the winter break, in all competitions (13 matches, one goal in the last 9), while scoring in 11/13 matches. Spurs 3-0ing this game would be a miracle.
Do I? There is exactly one team this season, which managed to create the necessary score line to reach the over time here and not only is this Team in every way superior to Spurs, but we are also way stronger defensively than we were back then. To put Spurs position in perspective: they have to score more goals against us than we have conceaded in the league in all of 2016. All that without us getting a successful counter in.
We have not given up on the league title yet, by the way. You just have to watch our last league games to realize that. We at least try to play all competitions without setting priorities and quite frankly I expect this of a team which wants to be a top club.
I expect us to keep some starters on the bench today (all outside Gündogan traveled, though), but still open up the game with great urgency similar to the tie vs. Porto. The clear goal will be scoring as soon as possible and then sit back and manage the game when we succeded in that.
I'll reply to the Dortmund bit specifically because the rest is just the typical bluster dressed up as 'banter'.
There has been a lot said about the selection that night (including, by way of disclaimer, me too).
However, if we actually want to look at what Poch ended up doing.
The back 5 were first choice. Rose and Vertonghen were injured. You could argue that Walker is nominally first choice over Trippier but Poch has been rotating the fullbacks at will.
For the midfield, Dier had a knock and so didn't travel. Dembele had only just returned from injury days previously and Poch tends to return players back from injury slowly. Alli was suspended. I'd perhaps have played Bentaleb over Carroll but Bentaleb has been a bit of a dick this season so not incredibly surprising that Poch didn't want to go for him.
The front four is certainly where you can argue a bit more. I would have started Lamela and Kane. Personally. But I can see why he didn't. Especially as Son knows Dortmund and has had quite a good record against them.
So when it comes down to it, all of the anger, disappointment etc, over....what? Kane and Lamela and a not yet fully fit Dembele? Really?
As for a few of the other points that people have been making:
It is 'just Aston Villa'.
Really? Just...really? Is this the same Aston Villa who held the team currently 5 points clear in 1st to a draw just a few weeks back? Or the crap Norwich who held Man City to a draw last weekend? Or the weird points that every single team has dropped so far this season against so called inferior or crap teams?
'We should be good enough to compete for both, especially if we want to be called title challengers'.
Currently, the team top of the league and the favourites for the league aren't in any European competition. They exited both of the domestic cups early. Are they gonna care about any of that stuff for one second if they win the league?
We are also not just competing for the league but competing against the teams below us too and trying to hold them off. Dortmund are 5 points from the top like us. But they're 16 points clear of the 3rd placed team and 20 clear of 5th place. We're 6 points off 3rd and 9 off 5th, with all of the teams below having a game in hand.
And where has this come from anyway? How many of you, who suddenly consider us good enough to be both title challengers and go toe to toe against one of the best teams in Europe thought we'd even be in the top 4 this season? How many of you would have laughed at Glaston if he'd suggested that we'd possibly finish in the top 4, let alone possibly ahead of Chelsea, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal? And now suddenly we should be good enough to be realistic title challengers and also be competing well for the EL too? Have we entered an (admittedly very pleasant) alternate universe where Spurs are consistent title challengers with squads that regularly win FA cups, Europa leagues, Champion leagues etc on top of the leagues we win?
How often do we win the league? How often do we challenge for the league? How often can we actually realistically, objectively say that we have more chance of winning the league than any of the other trophies?
As for two poor teams, if the league had started on 1st December, Bournemouth would be 3rd in the table. We're not a good enough team to just have games where we know 100% we're going to win and can rotate the team wholesale and it not be a problem.
Beating Dortmund
For me, Dortmund are one of the top 5 teams in Europe, at worst a top 10 team. Even with a full strength team playing at our best, I'd give us a chance of going through perhaps only 2-3 times/10 against Dortmund. Then we have another few rounds, in a cup competition where things can always come down to a single mistake by a player or ref. We had more chance of winning the league then the EL, especially once we got drawn against the clear favourites.
I'd have preferred Poch to play a slightly stronger team. However, due to injuries, the team wasnt as bad as it initially appeared. And it isn't illogical to prioritise the league currently, considering we are both in a challenge for the title.
Last edited:
The tie is over. We're not going to beat Dortmund by 3-0 or more. Our first team isn't going to do that either.
I also don't think our first team over both legs would have progressed either.
I also don't think our first team over both legs would have progressed either.
Tottenham have least goals conceded in the PL and joint highest scored. You are under estimating them and if Pochettino does decide to go for it and put his strongest 11 out while you rest some of your key players then frankly I wouldn't be surprised if you do get surprised.
They rested/injured Kane, Alli, Dier, Walker, Rose in the first leg, that's half of their outfield team that are automatic starters in the PL. If they do decide to go for it then you'll be in for a shock. But I don't think they will, so it's a moot point I guess. Would be fun if they did though.
Nope. Mind you, Spurs fans still deny that Kane is an Arsenal fan just like they denied Bale was one. It's hilarious how much these small 'victories' mean to them.
Wasn't Kane a player in your youth system at the time?
What small victories are these exactly? Whether Kane is a fan or not (I believe he is but hey ho), I and most Spurs fans couldn't care less who he or he other players support. What does matter is that he plays for Spurs, plays incredibly well and scores quite a lot of goals (including against Arsenal). Having come up from our academy too (as with quite a few of our players currently).
These are the 'small victories' that matter to me and most Spurs fans.
Whoever they support I couldn't really care less.
If they do what you did in the first leg and rested players then it's possible. You're a very good side at home and can easily control the game and you've got players who can score out of nothing. Never say never in Europe. Just look how close Bayern were to going out yesterday.
Why? Do clubs become top teams overnight?
Because Poch decided that we don't have the resources or squad currently to try to win the title and also compete with one of the very best clubs in Europe, suddenly this is why we'll never be a top team?
Our squad is incredibly young. Poch is also very very young. Everybody is learning. We can't go from a club that in pre-season, almost nobody tipped for the top 4 this season, let alone for a realistic chance of winning the title with 8 games left to a club that will never be a top team because the manager doesnt feel we can compete currently for both the PL and the EL. Against Dortmund.
In 7 months. That's a pretty big 7 months clearly.
Also, we've been playing European games followed by PL games for the last 10 years pretty much non stop. This season isn't anything new.
Well, we won´t do that. Tuchel is not arrogant enough to change the team that much and expect to go through. When I say resting some starters, I mean maybe two attackers and a midfielder on the bench rather than from the start, not ripping the spine out of a team and expecting it to perform.
Fair enough. I guess nothing is impossible, especially if the roles are reversed from the first leg and we get an early goal.
Still, I really do consider Dortmund to be one of the very best sides in Europe and I don't think Tuchel will make wholesale changes.
Dortmund's squad players appear much better than Spurs' though and I doubt that Tuchel will see this tie as completely over. In the return leg in Porto (2:0 up) he fielded Bürki - Ginter, Hummels, Bender, Schmelzer - Weigl, Gündogan, Kagawa - Mkhitaryan, Aubameyang, Reus.
Given that it's 3:0 this time and Spurs will probably not play their strongest team either we might see more rotation, but I expect this to be along the lines of Castro, Sahin or Subotic coming in.
Never is obviously too harsh, but giving up on competitions like that surely isn't a promising sign and it's not like Tottenham is some poor club who made it into the EL/out of the group stages by surprise.
Last edited:
In scale terms Ajax to Spurs is similar to Spurs to United.
If I went into any bookies and asked about odds to win the CL in next 5 years, I'd get shorter on United than Spurs. And that's despite United likely not even being in the competition next year.
Players aren't joining a Moyes or Van Gaal team (touch wood) so I don't really see it as relevant. If we're selling the future of the club to a player I can't see many turning around and saying "yeah but Spurs finished ahead of you in 2012/13 when Moyes was manager."
Even in this freakishly good season for Spurs, with all big teams faltering, you're likely to not even win the league. If you can't win it with every card stacked in your favour then the portents for doing it in the future, when the other teams will sort themselves out under new management, aren't very good.
How do you work that out?
I can't really be bothered to get involved in the rest of the stuff but why do people always say this?
Fans always say this every time we miss out on the CL.
This was Tottenham's big chance. The league won't be as easy next time. They won't get into the CL now. All of the top clubs will be so much better next year. Man City will be better. We'll hire X. We'll buy Y. Liverpool will get it together. Etc etc.
Its just not really true though is it? How many people predicted anything like this season to happen?