Europa League 2015/2016

africanspur said:
I can't really be bothered to get involved in the rest of the stuff but why do people always say this?

Fans always say this every time we miss out on the CL.

This was Tottenham's big chance. The league won't be as easy next time. They won't get into the CL now. All of the top clubs will be so much better next year. Man City will be better. We'll hire X. We'll buy Y. Liverpool will get it together. Etc etc.

Its just not really true though is it? How many people predicted anything like this season to happen?
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The last time I remember people saying it en-masse was when Liverpool missed out on the league in 2013, despite having everything in their favour to win.

It felt like if they couldn't do it then they'd struggle once other teams sorted themselves out. And they were spot on.
 
RedSky said:
How do you work that out?
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That Dortmund's squad players appear stronger? Because Tuchel has been rotating a lot this season, on some positions you can't tell who is actually first choice (CM next to Gündogan and 2nd CB for example). Then you have cases like Ginter who is now 2nd choice RB but managed to be a starter for most of the season's first half. Whereas things seem much more set in stone for Spurs and well the game in Dortmund also seemed very telling.
 
do.ob said:
Never is obviously too harsh, but giving up on competitions like that surely isn't a promising sign and it's not like Tottenham is some poor club who made it into the EL/out of the group stages by surprise.
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Why? Are we a club that has made a habit of winning league and European cup doubles? Even if we are going to become that club, getting to that level of club is a long process and doesn't happen overnight or over the course of just one season. We're already well ahead of schedule this season. I can only emphasise again how few people even thought we'd bother the top 4 teams in the league.

No we're not some poor club that made its way out of the group stages by surprise. We are however a club that are involved in a title race which isn't a regular occurrence currently. We've not had a realistic chance of winning the title since the 80s. And we're not currently a squad (imo anyway, people seem to have developed quite a high opinion of us clearly), who can realistically go deep into the EL and also win the title. I also don't think we have the squad that can play:

Liverpool away
EL QF
Man Utd Home
EL QF
Stoke away

In 16 days and come out in the semi-finals and still in with a realistic chance of winning the title.

I've already explained all of this in the previous (admittedly very long) post earlier.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Even in this freakishly good season for Spurs, with all big teams faltering, you're likely to not even win the league. If you can't win it with every card stacked in your favour then the portents for doing it in the future, when the other teams will sort themselves out under new management, aren't very good.
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This is a better argument for Arsenal than it is for Spurs, Spurs haven't been in the mix for a long while and you may as well be saying this about West Ham as well. They've pretty much surpassed their expectations and leapfrogged a Top 4 race and you can see they have an attractive style with a youthful core. Expecting them to push on from this next season.
 
Kraftwerker said:
The last time I remember people saying it en-masse was when Liverpool missed out on the league in 2013, despite having everything in their favour to win.

It felt like if they couldn't do it then they'd struggle once other teams sorted themselves out. And they were spot on.
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They weren't spot on in the slightest. A mere 2 seasons later, the likely winner of the league looks like it will be either Leicester or Tottenham. Meanwhile, Man City currently sit in 4th, Man Utd in 6th, Liverpool in 8th and Chelsea in 10th.

As for us, people have said the same every season we've missed out on the CL by a narrow margin, especially 2005-2006 and 2011-2012.
 
Everything about Spurs this season was incredibly likeable but then Glaston had to come along and ruin it
 
africanspur said:
They weren't spot on in the slightest. A mere 2 seasons later, the likely winner of the league looks like it will be either Leicester or Tottenham. Meanwhile, Man City currently sit in 4th, Man Utd in 6th, Liverpool in 8th and Chelsea in 10th.

As for us, people have said the same every season we've missed out on the CL by a narrow margin, especially 2005-2006 and 2011-2012.
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Well they were spot on because Liverpool haven't come close since. We're talking about pissing away a good chance to win the league. Liverpool did it in 2013. Looks like Spurs might do it this year.

I'm not saying it's now or never. It's just that you kind of have to make it count when so much is in your favour, as the lesson from Liverpool is that you might be waiting a while for it again.
 
africanspur said:
Why? Are we a club that has made a habit of winning league and European cup doubles? Even if we are going to become that club, getting to that level of club is a long process and doesn't happen overnight or over the course of just one season. We're already well ahead of schedule this season. I can only emphasise again how few people even thought we'd bother the top 4 teams in the league.

No we're not some poor club that made its way out of the group stages by surprise. We are however a club that are involved in a title race which isn't a regular occurrence currently. We've not had a realistic chance of winning the title since the 80s. And we're not currently a squad (imo anyway, people seem to have developed quite a high opinion of us clearly), who can realistically go deep into the EL and also win the title. I also don't think we have the squad that can play:

Liverpool away
EL QF
Man Utd Home
EL QF
Stoke away

In 16 days and come out in the semi-finals and still in with a realistic chance of winning the title.

I've already explained all of this in the previous (admittedly very long) post earlier.
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Lots of clubs which are left in the competition (and take it seriously) are still fighting for something in other competitions and most of them aren't in the "habit of winning doubles" either.
And this wasn't the QF embedded into Liverpool, United and Stoke, it's Villa and Bournemouth.

I think the final steps of a title challenge are all about mentality, teams believing that everything is possible if they keep fighting for it. Forfeiting a tie like that screams the opposite, so even if some players got a little bit more rest I don't think this will necessarily help in the long run.
And tbh I don't really understand what you're trying to convince me of. I said that gifting away ties like that looks small time and you're basically telling me how small time Spurs really are. Is this about taking blame from Poch?
 
Kraftwerker said:
Well they were spot on because Liverpool haven't come close since. We're talking about pissing away a good chance to win the league. Liverpool did it in 2013. Looks like Spurs might do it this year.

I'm not saying it's now or never. It's just that you kind of have to make it count when so much is in your favour, as the lesson from Liverpool is that you might be waiting a while for it again.
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Not really because the reasoning was that the top teams would never be that bad again. Except just a few short seasons after, the top teams are that bad again. The only thing is that Liverpool are too crap to take advantage. This season, its looking like one of either Leicester or Tottenham will.

We haven't pissed anything away considering we haven't been top of the league at all as far as I can remember this season.

Of course you need to try to take advantage. My point is that fans see things in such short term ways that even though the top teams actually have quite regular off seasons, its seen as a big deal that likely won't be repeated soon when one of them does and another team doesn't take advantage of it.
 
GlastonSpur said:
We're not talking about money vs words. We're talking about money vs the chance to play in the CL, stay with the same manager and stay part of a squad that has excellent team spirit and will likely only improve due its young average age. And even then we're talking about enough extra money to cause player X to actively agitate for a move, bearing in mind that Spurs players would already be looking forward to CL bonus money.

No Spurs player is going to actively agitate for a move simply to go and play for United in the EL .... regardless of any wages hike offered.
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I think you really underestimate the pull of money. I can understand you talking about it as a Spurs fan and I don't begrudge you that but when the money is on the table, it is very, very hard to not say "yes". You are talking about a slip in fortunes of United but they are still a much, much bigger club than Spurs. In terms of revenue, we blow you out of the water.

Yes you have CL bonus money, but a lot will depend on what we offer. City, when they were nobodies, still attracted top talents in world football because of money. Same goes for Chelsea when Roman took over. I think you will be in for a shock if you believe that a player would not move for money despite you offering CL football.
 
do.ob said:
Lots of clubs which are left in the competition (and take it seriously) are still fighting for something in other competitions and most of them aren't in the "habit of winning doubles" either.
And this wasn't the QF embedded into Liverpool, United and Stoke, it's Villa and Bournemouth.

I think the final steps of a title challenge are all about mentality, teams believing that everything is possible if they keep fighting for it. Forfeiting a tie like that screams the opposite, so even if some players got a little bit more rest I don't think this will necessarily help in the long run.
And tbh I don't really understand what you're trying to convince me of. I said that gifting away ties like that looks small time and you're basically telling me how small time Spurs really are. Is this about taking blame from Poch?
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Fair enough. As I said, we're a young team with a young manager. We're learning. I think we've done incredibly well this season, regardless of how one European tie goes.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Not every discussion on the internet needs to be an aggressive attempt to convince someone else of your opinion. What I'm trying to say is that Poch actually 'dropped' 3 players, as opposed to the wholesale changes people seem to think he made. And that I (and probably Poch) considered trying to go all out for the league (and actually consolidating where we are) as more realistic than going for both. That even though I'm slightly disappointed, I can understand the reasoning behind the decision.

Calling us small time or big time is a bit silly tbh. We're not Bayern or United under Ferguson. If that makes us small time for prioritising one competition over the other, then I guess we're small time.
 
africanspur said:
Not really because the reasoning was that the top teams would never be that bad again. Except just a few short seasons after, the top teams are that bad again. The only thing is that Liverpool are too crap to take advantage. This season, its looking like one of either Leicester or Tottenham will.

We haven't pissed anything away considering we haven't been top of the league at all as far as I can remember this season.

Of course you need to try to take advantage. My point is that fans see things in such short term ways that even though the top teams actually have quite regular off seasons, its seen as a big deal that likely won't be repeated soon when one of them does and another team doesn't take advantage of it.
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Actually not true.

I'd say this is the first time all of Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City have been poor. City at least pulled themselves together for the run-in against Liverpool.

I'm calling this as a bit of a freak season. I fully expect at least two of those teams to be much much better next season.

I'm actually taking a long-term view, not a short-term one. A short-term view would be that Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man United will be crap again next season because they're crap this season i.e. no perspective beyond what's happening in the here and now.
 
Kraftwerker said:
.... If we're selling the future of the club to a player I can't see many turning around and saying "yeah but Spurs finished ahead of you in 2012/13 when Moyes was manager."...
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It won't just be 2012-13 (actually wasn't it 2013-14?), it will likely be this season also - making it 2 seasons out of the last 3 as I've said.

But have it your own way: it's fine by me if United want to waste their time this summer trying to persuade Kane, or Lloris or Alli (or whoever) to agitate for a move to Old Trafford when you could be pursuing more realistic signings.
 
africanspur said:
Fair enough. As I said, we're a young team with a young manager. We're learning. I think we've done incredibly well this season, regardless of how one European tie goes.

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Not every discussion on the internet needs to be an aggressive attempt to convince someone else of your opinion. What I'm trying to say is that Poch actually 'dropped' 3 players, as opposed to the wholesale changes people seem to think he made. And that I (and probably Poch) considered trying to go all out for the league (and actually consolidating where we are) as more realistic than going for both. That even though I'm slightly disappointed, I can understand the reasoning behind the decision.

Calling us small time or big time is a bit silly tbh. We're not Bayern or United under Ferguson. If that makes us small time for prioritising one competition over the other, then I guess we're small time.
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I didn't mean "small time" in an overly offensive manner. You could maybe replace it with mediocre.
I also don't see any Bayerns or SAFs in the current round, so I think those comparisons are vastly exaggerated.
 
Kraftwerker said:
Actually not true.

I'd say this is the first time all of Man United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man City have been poor. City at least pulled themselves together for the run-in against Liverpool.

I'm calling this as a bit of a freak season. I fully expect at least two of those teams to be much much better next season.

I'm actually taking a long-term view, not a short-term one. A short-term view would be that Man City, Arsenal, Chelsea and Man United will be crap again next season because they're crap this season i.e. no perspective beyond what's happening in the here and now.
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I don't mean all of them at once. But Chelsea have finished outside of the top 4 twice in the past 5 seasons (and this time, there's no way they're getting back in the CL). Man Utd have finished outside once (and either they'll finish outside twice in 3 seasons or Man City will finish outside the top 4. If West Ham cause enough of an upset, they'll both be out).

This is certainly a freak season. I don't think it will be replicated exactly.

However, I do think that one of the 'regulars' in the top 4 are quite liable for a faltering season which opens them up to potentially losing their top 4 place and I also think we've seen a little of a trend towards the 'smaller teams' being able to better compete with the 'bigger' richer clubs through forming a very good team, as opposed to a collection of individuals.
 
do.ob said:
I didn't mean "small time" in an overly offensive manner. You could maybe replace it with mediocre.
I also don't see any Bayerns or SAFs in the current round, so I think those comparisons are vastly exaggerated.
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Fair enough.

I think Dortmund are basically that level of club tbh. And I think we would have gotten away with it against some of the teams left in the competition (as it did with Fiorentina).

As it was, we came up against the best team left in the competition (by some distance) that even a full strength Spurs team would have very severe trouble matching. Again, in my opinion.
 
Lazio 0-2 down. They need to score 3 goals now to go through. Italy could lose their last team today.
 
Don't think we need to worry about our 4th Champions League place being taken just yet
 
@Balu are you watching Leverkusen Vilarreal? I can't watch it as I'm on a train ride. How's the game going and who's been better?
 
What's wrong with Lazio? Trailing 0-3 now at home against Prague.
 
Valencia 2-1 up on aggregate. Been a great game so far. Both goals resulting from excellent work from Gaya down the left.
 
Crossie said:
What's wrong with Lazio? Trailing 0-3 now at home against Prague.
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Sparta Prague are a severely underrated team, although it has to be said that Lazio aren't very good. Sparta did very well in the group stages and destroyed FC Krasnodar in the last 32, which was a tremendous achievement.
 
Scorpy said:
Sparta Prague are a severely underrated team, although it has to be said that Lazio aren't very good. Sparta did very well in the group stages and destroyed FC Krasnodar in the last 32, which was a tremendous achievement.
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This is Spartaaaaaaaaa!
 
Crossie said:
What's wrong with Lazio? Trailing 0-3 now at home against Prague.
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I don't watch them, but I follow their results (because of Ravel Morrison, though he never plays). Just from looking at their league result, they just seem to be a mediocre team.
 
Interesting BVB line up without Hummels in starting XI:
 
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