Bluemoon goes into Meltdown

RedRover said:
Bottom line - whatever you think of squad comparisons, they have a number of very good players who when supplemented by other very good players - which they inevitably will be, and with a very good manager who is light years ahead of ours, will probably do very well.

They are further down the curve than we are and getting Guardiola proves it.

We won today and deserved it, but it means nothing. We're lumbered with a manager who's best years are past him while they're arguably four or five players away from a very good side.
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We're arguably four or five players away from a very good side. This argument holds no water.
 
diarm said:
I think Klopp, Ranieri and others have shown that any side is four or five players and a good coach away from being good. City do have some good players and I think their starting XI is better than ours. But their squad is the weakest in terms of numbers, and in quality outside the starting XI, of any of the big clubs.
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I disagree. City have better players than other clubs. Perhaps their "squad" is weaker but this season they are underachieving with what they have.

That is largely by the by though - my point is that with Guardiola in charge and with the money they have they won't struggle to attract the players he wants. That cannot he said of Klopp of Ranieri and their respective clubs - nor can it be said of United with Van Gaal in charge.
 
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AR87 said:
We're arguably four or five players away from a very good side. This argument holds no water.
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It holds plenty of water when you look at how likely we are to be able to bring those players in.

The plain fact is, as I've said above, Guardiola will be backed to whatever financial end he feels he needs and it's a fair bet players will want to work with him given the success he has had in the game.

There's an obvious point here. City are clearly in transition with players on the slide. They recognise that and in order to move forward they've convinced the biggest name in management to take the job and I suspect will show the same ambition in allowing him to bring in the players he wants to build a side.

Conversely - in a similar situation our board appointed David Moyes and then appointed - and persisted with Van Gaal, our squad hasn't improved to the extent it should given the money spent and have spent most transfer windows chasing pipe dream players like a child playing on a computer game.

The win today is of course positive, as is the emergence of a potentially top young talent. Doesn't accurately reflect the directions of the respective clubs in my opinion as it stands. We were alright, we defended well but City were poor. I hope this isn't papering over obvious and blatant cracks.
 
RedRover said:
It holds plenty of water when you look at how likely we are to be able to bring those players in.

The plain fact is, as I've said above, Guardiola will be backed to whatever financial end he feels he needs and it's a fair bet players will want to work with him given the success he has had in the game.

There's an obvious point here. City are clearly in transition with players on the slide. They recognise that and in order to move forward they've convinced the biggest name in management to take the job and I suspect will show the same ambition in allowing him to bring in the players he wants to build a side.

Conversely - in a similar situation our board appointed David Moyes and then appointed - and persisted with Van Gaal, our squad hasn't improved to the extent it should given the money spent and have spent most transfer windows chasing pipe dream players like a child playing on a computer game.

The win today is of course positive, as is the emergence of a potentially top young talent. Doesn't accurately reflect the directions of the respective clubs in my opinion as it stands. We were alright, we defended well but City were poor. I hope this isn't papering over obvious and blatant cracks.
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But we are most likely going to have a new manager in the summer and by all accounts, one who has experience of this league. City are banking on Pep being able to build a team almost from scratch - something he's never really had to do before.

Imagine you are a top coach, looking at both squads and knowing you'll have serious money available to spend at which ever one you take over:

United:
  • Rooney, Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Valencia and Young aged 30 years or over.
  • The vast majority of the first team squad are in their low to mid 20's and have decent experience under their belts.
  • There is one world class player in De Gea, plus a few top class players in Smalling, Schweinsteiger, Shaw and Martial.
  • There are serious young talents in Varela, CBJ, Rashford, Pereira, Januzaj, TFM, Riley and Memphis who have all seen game time already.

City:
  • Caballero, Wright, Demichelis, Kolarov, Clichy, Zabaleta, Sagna, Fernandinho, Toure, Silva and Navas aged 30+ with several more pushing 30.
  • Only 3 players in their first team squad, or with any real first team experience, who are aged under 25.
  • There is one world class player in Aguero, plus a few top class players in Kompany, Toure, Silva and De Bruyne.
  • There are serious young talents in Sterling and Iheanacho who have seen game time already.

It's a no brainer for me.
 
RedRover said:
It holds plenty of water when you look at how likely we are to be able to bring those players in.

The plain fact is, as I've said above, Guardiola will be backed to whatever financial end he feels he needs and it's a fair bet players will want to work with him given the success he has had in the game.

There's an obvious point here. City are clearly in transition with players on the slide. They recognise that and in order to move forward they've convinced the biggest name in management to take the job and I suspect will show the same ambition in allowing him to bring in the players he wants to build a side.

Conversely - in a similar situation our board appointed David Moyes and then appointed - and persisted with Van Gaal, our squad hasn't improved to the extent it should given the money spent and have spent most transfer windows chasing pipe dream players like a child playing on a computer game.

The win today is of course positive, as is the emergence of a potentially top young talent. Doesn't accurately reflect the directions of the respective clubs in my opinion as it stands. We were alright, we defended well but City were poor. I hope this isn't papering over obvious and blatant cracks.
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Players will want to work with him sure, but the fact is he has to replace a lot of players in the squad. I'd argue looking at the young talent in each squad, we're far ahead in rebuilding than City are. What we lack are a manager and the same 4 or 5 signing City are.

They really aren't all that far ahead of us.
 
Here's hoping that Pep is a cock and only won because of the players he inherited. Same as Brenton looking a good manager when he had Suarez.
 
diarm said:
But we are most likely going to have a new manager in the summer and by all accounts, one who has experience of this league. City are banking on Pep being able to build a team almost from scratch - something he's never really had to do before.

Imagine you are a top coach, looking at both squads and knowing you'll have serious money available to spend at which ever one you take over:

United:
  • Rooney, Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Valencia and Young aged 30 years or over.
  • The vast majority of the first team squad are in their low to mid 20's and have decent experience under their belts.
  • There is one world class player in De Gea, plus a few top class players in Smalling, Schweinsteiger, Shaw and Martial.
  • There are serious young talents in Varela, CBJ, Rashford, Pereira, Januzaj, TFM, Riley and Memphis who have all seen game time already.

City:
  • Caballero, Wright, Demichelis, Kolarov, Clichy, Zabaleta, Sagna, Fernandinho, Toure, Silva and Navas aged 30+ with several more pushing 30.
  • Only 3 players in their first team squad, or with any real first team experience, who are aged under 25.
  • There is one world class player in Aguero, plus a few top class players in Kompany, Toure, Silva and De Bruyne.
  • There are serious young talents in Sterling and Iheanacho who have seen game time already.

It's a no brainer for me.
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Fair assessment, but I think it's a bit skewed towards our side.

Our world-class player - De Gea - is likely to leave unless Mendes can somehow persuade him otherwise. I also wouldn't class Schweinsteiger as top-class anymore, and it's a bit of a stretch to put Smalling in that bracket.

We also don't know how many other jewels are lurking in City's academy. I'd imagine there are a few more that could graduate to the first team in the next year or so.

Saying that, I'd agree with your summary overall. Plus we're one of the most storied, self-sufficient clubs in the world and City are essentially a middling club which won the lottery. Not sure that's strictly relevant but thought I'd throw it in.
 
JohnnyKills said:
Fair assessment, but I think it's a bit skewed towards our side.

Our world-class player - De Gea - is likely to leave unless Mendes can somehow persuade him otherwise. I also wouldn't class Schweinsteiger as top-class anymore, and it's a bit of a stretch to put Smalling in that bracket.

We also don't know how many other jewels are lurking in City's academy. I'd imagine there are a few more that could graduate to the first team in the next year or so.
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Has Schweinsteiger declined any more than Kompany or Silva have? Smalling has been one of the best defenders in Europe for 2 seasons now. There are very few centre backs I'd take ahead of him. Certainly none of City's.

There could well be several gems in the City academy, but the proof of the pudding is incorporating them into the first team and whoever takes over at United, knows he has 7 or 8 who have already shown they can cut it at this level.
 
Jonno said:
Silva and Kompany aren't considered world class?
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In what way are they world class? Silva has done next to nothing all season and is 30. Kompany has been a liability for years now. And is always injured. This season they thought he was "back" on the basis of 5 good games at the start of the season, but then he's been out for most of it, so you can't really say that he is top class again can you?
 
Jonno said:
Silva and Kompany aren't considered world class?
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Not by me they're not. I'd be fairly close to saying De Gea and Aguero are the only two bona fide world class players currently playing in the Prem. Sanchez and Ozil are probably the next closest but I'm not sure either are consistent enough to be WC.
 
diarm said:
Maybe the Varela and CBJ calls. But I'm entertaining no discussion on the rest of them!
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I don't disagree with much but the attacking mids are strategically selected....

Silva > Mata
Nasri = Young
Navas = Lingard
Sterling > Memphis
De Bruyne > Pereira
Iheanacho = Januzaj

Could easily be...

Silva > Mata
De Bruyne > Young
Sterling > Lingard
Navas > Memphis
Nasri > Pereira
Iheanacho > Januzaj (because he is at present)
 
Fair comments I suppose, I tend to hold on to the idea of how good a player is for longer than current form. I think for example that Silva could still rip teams apart and play the best football of his career for another 2-3 years under Pep. Kompany might be more trouble than he's worth with the injuries, similar to Vida towards the end.
 
nokillingmoths said:
I don't disagree with much but the attacking mids are strategically selected....

Silva > Mata
Nasri = Young
Navas = Lingard
Sterling > Memphis
De Bruyne > Pereira
Iheanacho = Januzaj

Could easily be...

Silva > Mata
De Bruyne > Young
Sterling > Lingard
Navas > Memphis
Nasri > Pereira
Iheanacho > Januzaj (because he is at present)
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Not sure why Sterling on the left would be up against Lingard on the right or Navas on the right would be up against Memphis on the left? I also don't think Iheanacho has done enough to suggest he's ahead of Januzaj at all.
 
Jonno said:
Fair comments I suppose, I tend to hold on to the idea of how good a player is for longer than current form. I think for example that Silva could still rip teams apart and play the best football of his career for another 2-3 years under Pep. Kompany might be more trouble than he's worth with the injuries, similar to Vida towards the end.
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That's very fair. But then surely the same benefit of the doubt should be given to Schweinsteiger, Rooney and Carrick?
 
diarm said:
That's very fair. But then surely the same benefit of the doubt should be given to Schweinsteiger, Rooney and Carrick?
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I'm a massive Carrick fan and I'd love him to be used properly in his best position ie NOT exposed against fast strikers at centre back....
 
Really honest post from the MCFC Reddit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MCFC/comments/4b8ryo/some_of_our_fans_our_fecking_knobheads/

On the train home now, and I'm sorry, but today's game upset me for a variety of reasons. Was sat in 110 and for the first time in ages I've been ashamed of city 'fans' around me. Around the 80th minute some lot behind us started grabbing some foreigners on our row for having the audacity to take photos of the game, calling them munichs etc. I tried getting them to calm down and suddenly they were all over me, arms flying everywhere.

What the feck is wrong with some of our own when we're fighting fellow blues. Wasn't the only lot around me as well that were trying to start Munich chants, why the feck are we still singing that shite when a city legend died in the crash? (nevermind it being abhorrent to begin with). Ashamed after today. Ashamed of our performance. Ashamed of some of our fans. I've seen us lose to united countless of times since the 80s but today left a more bitter taste than usual. Sorry for the moan.
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RedRover said:
I disagree. City have better players than other clubs. Perhaps their "squad" is weaker but this season they are underachieving with what they have.

That is largely by the by though - my point is that with Guardiola in charge and with the money they have they won't struggle to attract the players he wants. That cannot he said of Klopp of Ranieri and their respective clubs - nor can it be said of United with Van Gaal in charge.
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Even the commentators reckon as far as squads and first 11 go, City are probably the best in England. There is just something wrong with the players mentality, they are severely under achieving. They still have at least half their team that would walk into the better teams in the PL.
 
Their spine (Hart, Kompany, Toure, Silva, Aguero) is the best in the league, but the rest of their squad are garbage flat track bullies.
 


This is the most rational fan video ever. He's clearly never been on camera before, also I think they sped the whole thing up which doesn't help. He looks so nervous, like he doesn't know who this lad with the mic is, and he sounds like every sentence he says is him asking himself a question. Still speaks some sense, mind you
 
AR87 said:
Players will want to work with him sure, but the fact is he has to replace a lot of players in the squad. I'd argue looking at the young talent in each squad, we're far ahead in rebuilding than City are. What we lack are a manager and the same 4 or 5 signing City are.

They really aren't all that far ahead of us.
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Hart, Silva, Aguero, De Bruyne and Sterling are a decent set to build around. They're deficiencies are at the back mainly. If they jettison Kompany they need at least one centre back.

To me they're a decent central midfield player a centre half and a wide player from being much improved - especially with a better coach.
 
SalfordRed1960 said:
Even the commentators reckon as far as squads and first 11 go, City are probably the best in England. There is just something wrong with the players mentality, they are severely under achieving. They still have at least half their team that would walk into the better teams in the PL.
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There's been something missing all year and to be honest, most of the time under Pellegrini. They'll hope Guardiola brings a confidence and certainly more organisation at the back.
 
diarm said:
But we are most likely going to have a new manager in the summer and by all accounts, one who has experience of this league. City are banking on Pep being able to build a team almost from scratch - something he's never really had to do before.

Imagine you are a top coach, looking at both squads and knowing you'll have serious money available to spend at which ever one you take over:

United:
  • Rooney, Carrick, Schweinsteiger, Valencia and Young aged 30 years or over.
  • The vast majority of the first team squad are in their low to mid 20's and have decent experience under their belts.
  • There is one world class player in De Gea, plus a few top class players in Smalling, Schweinsteiger, Shaw and Martial.
  • There are serious young talents in Varela, CBJ, Rashford, Pereira, Januzaj, TFM, Riley and Memphis who have all seen game time already.

City:
  • Caballero, Wright, Demichelis, Kolarov, Clichy, Zabaleta, Sagna, Fernandinho, Toure, Silva and Navas aged 30+ with several more pushing 30.
  • Only 3 players in their first team squad, or with any real first team experience, who are aged under 25.
  • There is one world class player in Aguero, plus a few top class players in Kompany, Toure, Silva and De Bruyne.
  • There are serious young talents in Sterling and Iheanacho who have seen game time already.

It's a no brainer for me.
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I'm sorry - the suggestion he's building from scratch is bizarre. Silva, Aguero, De Bruyne, Hart and Sterling are all very good players with a huge amount to offer going forward.

When you factor in that he might bring in 4 or 5 players as most new managers do that will give him a very good chance of doing well in a league where consistency and quality has been lacking.

They have other, half decent players who in a good system would do a job. He would I suspect bank on being as to get the best out of them.

Looking at young players is totally misleading. The question is, how many of them are good enough to make the grade at the very top level. You'd be lucky overall if it was one or two from those you've mentioned.

Whether players are over 25 or under doesn't make any difference. Especially when you can go out and buy the best players around.
 
Watching the Manchester derby makes me happy. It makes me realise that we weren't the only ones who wasted hell lot of money!
 
RedRover said:
I'm sorry - the suggestion he's building from scratch is bizarre. Silva, Aguero, De Bruyne, Hart and Sterling are all very good players with a huge amount to offer going forward.

When you factor in that he might bring in 4 or 5 players as most new managers do that will give him a very good chance of doing well in a league where consistency and quality has been lacking.

They have other, half decent players who in a good system would do a job. He would I suspect bank on being as to get the best out of them.

Looking at young players is totally misleading. The question is, how many of them are good enough to make the grade at the very top level. You'd be lucky overall if it was one or two from those you've mentioned.

Whether players are over 25 or under doesn't make any difference. Especially when you can go out and buy the best players around.
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Good post. Agree.
 
With our win yesterday We probably put to bed any chance that they had for the Premiership.
 
diarm said:
Has Schweinsteiger declined any more than Kompany or Silva have? Smalling has been one of the best defenders in Europe for 2 seasons now. There are very few centre backs I'd take ahead of him. Certainly none of City's.

There could well be several gems in the City academy, but the proof of the pudding is incorporating them into the first team and whoever takes over at United, knows he has 7 or 8 who have already shown they can cut it at this level.
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Very much so. Hope Mourinho recognises that.
 
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