It was more painful than him up top.
I think the best position for him right now would be CB and I'm not even sure if I'm joking.
Wherever he's put on the field, that's a weak spot that could improved upon in the transfer market.
The end of Rooney
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
It was more painful than him up top.
I think the best position for him right now would be CB and I'm not even sure if I'm joking.
Wherever he's put on the field, that's a weak spot that could improved upon in the transfer market.
I think his best position is definitely up top and the reason for that is simply his goalscoring records. When he played up top at a team that creates chances, he does deliver. It can be argued that he was just as good and influential as Van Persie was for us in 2010 and 2012. Him in midfield or off the striker just does not make sense to me because he lacks the required skill to be on the ball. His passing is not very good, first touch is average and close control is mediocre. His defensive work is also really basically him putting a lot of effort in which should deteriorate with age. He is a good finisher however and he really knows how to get space for himself and score goals when the team is functioning well. I think that because he puts a strong shift in and because he naturally likes to wander about the pitch, managers think they might as well put him in a position where he is on the ball more. However, He simply is not good enough on the ball for any position where he will see a lot of the ball.
If we start creating some chances and manage to convince him to actually stick up front and focus on being a number 9 and nothing else, I really think he can do for us what Kane is doing Spurs. He is no Agüero or Suarez and never will be but he can be as good of a pure finisher as any.
It was of course the best position for him, but I just don't think he's good enough any more. There are a lot of players in the team that could improve a lot with a better team around them that's creating more chances, but you've got to put those better players somewhere. At the moment there's no room for them if we're relying on all our players to come better when we improve.....does that make sense?
If it was anyone else hitting those passes they would barely even be mentioned, but it's the only positive thing he offers and it's not even a positive a lot of the time. His defenders have to find something to praise him for so they pick that out as it's all they have. Everything else is either intangibles or things he hasn't done in years like: him being better in a different position, alleged creativity(doing the same thing over and over again isn't creative), claims about great passing, claims about work rate(from the guy it takes 10 games to get fit) and allegations that the guy who goes on huge barren spells is in fact a brilliant finisher being held back by the team. It's the worst smoke screen in football.
Ship out Carrick & stick the fat feck in defensive midfield. He can still pick out a pass but looks positively aged as an out & out striker when you look at the potential of Martial & Rashford.
No way should he go to France!!
No way should he go to France!!
I am not really sure? By better players, do you mean new players that we can/will buy? I am basically just not a big fan of this football manager attitude of "(insert position) is not setting the world alight and his name is not shiny enough = buy a new (said position)". I think that's how a lot of fans look at our team and football in general as though it is a game made of little pieces of a puzzle and you have to have the best available piece for every slot. Those would be the same people who argued in summer 2006 that we needed a new left back because Evra just did not look like he can make it, centre half because Vidic is too much of an unknown entity, 1 or 2 midfielders because Keane is out and Scholes is getting old and one more striker because we no longer have Ruud.
History usually tells us however that one or two additions can have an effect on the whole team and influence every other position. Our main problem is scoring goals and there is no rulebook on what you need to score goals. Some teams do it through their wingers and attacking midfielders, some have a brilliant 9, some have goalscoring midfielders. That is why I think we simply need more firepower and this can come in the form of any position and should help out Martial, Mata, Lingard, Memphis and yes even Rooney.
He's played over 500 games of top level football. If at this stage he can't or doesn't want to play as a proper number 9 he never will. There's just no way he can do the equivalent of Kane, physically those days have gone.
The whole issue of his best position is crazy. I'm not saying it's necessarily his fault but how at this stage is not already decided.
Trying to think of another player with his profile who after 13 years still doesn't know his best position. Can't think of anyone.
His control is awful, his passing pretty average, he can't run and his strength isn't even there these days, whichever position you shoehorn him into the team will ultimately be less than it could be.
That is a good point about his physical state, The issue about his position however is not necessarily as crazy as you make it sound. I actually believe it is just this obsession with assigning players to specific positions in Britain that gets people riled up about Rooney. You see plenty of examples of German, Spanish, Italian players playing in different positions time and time again and we marvel at their tactical intelligence and understanding and I think Rooney few years back was in the same category. His skill set as of now does not enable him for me to be anywhere where he will see too much of the ball so I think he lost that flexibility and can only function as a finisher in his late years but the fact that he could at some point perform at varying areas of the pitch should be applauded rather than criticized.
Let's face the bare simple facts, Rooneys time as a top class player is gone, if we do not want Uniteds time as a top class football team to also be gone then we need to replace him with one of the many better players that are around. Or do we just keep him because he is Wayne Rooney a once fantastic forward, maybe get Giggs to be manager as he is a nice guy and United through and through forget the fact that despite his(Giggs) dedication to club he has absolutely no managerial experience. Both are United legends and have been great for the club, but facts are facts Rooney is no longer top class, and Giggs has no managerial experience. Wake the feck up. A time comes for everyone when they are just not good enough anymore, it will come for Messi, and it will come for Ronaldo and everyone else, it is called ageing. Sorry for putting the Giggs manager issue in there but it is a bit similar, as it shows that as a club, we still do not know when to let go.
It should be applauded.
However most players do have a position, whatever their nationality. Right now we still don't know in what position we'll get his best from. This is highly unusual at his age.
I'm not really blaming him. He has been messed about a bit over the years and now we're desperate to find any role that keeps him in the team. For some reason.
The role of the striker these days requires more than Rooney has IMO. I agree he can still finish when he's in a patch of form, but he can't press or run the channels and his touch is so erratic you can't build play off him.
But I would argue he DOES have a position. To most football fans, Rooney is a striker or at least he plays up top not too dissimilar to someone like Raùl or Del Piero. He has had to fill in down the years in other positions but again you can say that about Thomas Müller. I agree that it is costing us having to shoehorn him in and it really is becoming a serious issue especially with his current technical limitations. I really think it is simply a question for whoever the next manager is. If they look at him in training and decide he is good enough to be a pure number 9 the way he was for us in 2010 and 2012, that's fine but the manager will have to stand by his decision if Rooney does not deliver. If they decide he is not good enough, I think he should be preferably on the bench or out of the club if needs to be.
I don't disagree but I think that depends on the style of football you are playing. It is true that a lot of teams need their main striker to get involved more in the build-up but there are others who don't. As I think Rooney nowadays offers nothing when on the ball apart from his ability to score goals so unless he will only be asked to do that, I don't see where he can fit in.
Not trying to be awkward but I can't think of any team of real quality that operates with a striker that can't either hold the ball up well and link play, or stretch the back 4 with pace and movement. The thing is Rooney was a second striker, not a #10 or a #9, he played his best football bar one season as the man in behind the striker. He doesn't have the discipline or pace to hold the line on the shoulder of the last defender, and the minute he drops in and sees more of the ball our attacks almost invariably shudder to a halt due to his poor touch and limited mobility. He's the biggest headache facing whomever the manager is next season, as until we break the chain of him being an unquestioned starter we will struggle to progress as a team IMO.
Well yeah like yourself everybody has an opinion on what position they think he's best at, the problem is that there's very little concensus. That's what we're discussing right now.
At 30 we wouldn't be discussing what position Scholes, Keane, Cantona, RVN, Beckham, Robben, RVP etc should be in. By that point it's set. This isn't because he's so good in various positions that it's hard to decided either. It's really just where can we get something acceptable from him.
The Muller comparison is a bit dodgy. We know he's an unusual one. For a player of his quality to be switched around is rare, that's not the norm. He's also four years younger and in a weaker team I think his position would be a lot more consistent.
He might still just about be hanging round, but there's no way he'll still be starting and captain by 2019!
In 2019 he has a guaranteed contract with top salary. He will definitely be in the club.
In 2019 he will be the all time top scorer of Man Utd. A legend, surpassing Sir Charlton. All time top scorer! I don't know why some people fail to realize that this is a big deal! It is HUGE!
No senior player with "legend" status has ever been stripped of the captaincy! Rooney will be the captain for as long as he is a player of Man Utd. I don't care to guess how many games he will play, but when he plays he will be the captain.
None of the above is sentimental. Is it the reality! I haven't touched the subject of whether he is a good player or not, nor the fictitious estimates of how good he will be in 2019 and how much he will play. Just hard, cold facts: In 2019, Rooney will be the captain of Man Utd.
In 2019 he has a guaranteed contract with top salary. He will definitely be in the club.
In 2019 he will be the all time top scorer of Man Utd. A legend, surpassing Sir Charlton. All time top scorer! I don't know why some people fail to realize that this is a big deal! It is HUGE!
No senior player with "legend" status has ever been stripped of the captaincy! Rooney will be the captain for as long as he is a player of Man Utd. I don't care to guess how many games he will play, but when he plays he will be the captain.
None of the above is sentimental. Is it the reality! I haven't touched the subject of whether he is a good player or not, nor the fictitious estimates of how good he will be in 2019 and how much he will play. Just hard, cold facts: In 2019, Rooney will be the captain of Man Utd.
So by your logic we are just going to let the club rot for 3 years in order to stroke Rooney's ego?
All fair points really. I really also think rationally speaking, there is no way back for him playing consistently for a successful side. I am scratching my head to find a logical explanation for his inclusion because I feel he is the last or one of the last men standing that gives this Manchester United side some form of personality or attitude. With every new team that we have built under Fergie there was the unmistakeable feel to it that some familiarity was carried. This is not just a United thing as every successful club around Europe have players of that ilk, players who you associate with them. If Rooney and Carrick are gone, I see no one like that for us. Obviously the argument is will you sacrifice quality in favour of keeping players like that and the answer is which extent for me. I'd be prepared to sacrifice a little quality but not to the extent that would be required if Rooney is on the pitch. It's sad but it's the way it has to be I suppose.
I think you are talking about a good position for him now whereas I was talking about his career in general. Anyway, whether we like it or not, Rooney on the pitch is simply not good enough anymore. There is an argument for keeping him because of what he offers off the pitch, in intangible areas. But even then you still have to bring something on the pitch and I just think it's hard to justify that he brings enough in that aspect.
I think when we did it in the past we transitioned more naturally from one team to the next by replacing key aging players while the other backbone players were still valuable cogs to keep a good balance, but we let the older players get too old between the end of Fergie and where we are now, which has led us to this point where the two senior players are simply past it and not worth sacrificing what we lose as a team when they are accommodated. T he Rooney conundrum is a real burden at this point as like you I cannot see any way to play him regularly and not hurt the team, but I equally find it unlikely that he'll accept being a squad player.
The solution isn't easy but it is to make it clear to Rooney that he will now be a squad player rather than a guaranteed starter. That he will start when he deserves to. And that we will improve our strike force regardless based on the 15/16 season. Then, if he wants to leave then we look for a buyer and some sort of amicable solution. If he wants to stay then fine, he can still contribute when he's in form.
The good thing about the above solution is the club will be controlling what it can control. We might have him on a big contract, but it's up to us if we want to actually play, or how much of a pedestrian we want to put him on.
Problem is, I don't have faith in the management to take that call. So what will happen - We'll sign big names to play alongside Rooney and give him the #10 role. - If JM is appointed: Mourinho will go along with that plan of the club to improve the areas around Rooney and revive a used-to-be-top-player, before half-way through the season dropping him JT style and deciding to do whatever the feck he wants.
Sadly that's how I see it playing out as well, Jose wont want to rock the boat immediately by ditching Rooney, and by the time he's ready to do it we'll have wasted another season pandering to him and leaving ourselves short of what we need to accommodate him.
Yep. Which is why the onus is on the club. Mourinho will know he can't begin by picking a fight given that's sortof why things went downhill at Chelsea (apart from fatigue apparently). My hope is that we have enough quality all-round to mask Rooney's weaknesses next season. That, or Woodward takes the bulls by the horns and makes shit happen.
We? Who are "we"?
if Jose does come and facing the Rooney issue, this year there has been public question marks over him which would be on Mourinhos side. There wern't calls to drop Terry was there?
The club, of course. I don't know why you think the fans are trying to sack/smack/hack Rooney here.
Sorry, I am not the club. I am just a fan. I don't make any decisions.
The other problem is him refusing to accept this and causing disruption by staying. This is the guy that handed in a transfer request before a Champions League game and dropped quotes to the press to destabilise Moyes before he'd even gotten started in order to get what he wanted.
I partially agree with nick2004 here. We are not going to throw a player who has been a poster boy for some time and who is going to break a club record and seal the legend status. Just don't see the club allowing even JM to do such stuff (though JM is free to pi** off Wayne, poke him in the eye or whatever)
If Rooney's record and general sentimentality is more important to the club than sorting out the bloody shambles we've become and getting back to challenging for the title every year then this slump is going to go on for a very long time, and we will deserve it.
He's had every chance to break the record this season, if he doesnt he will have nobody to blame but himself. As I said before, it we want to keep him for football reasons, and relegate him to the status of squad player - where he will surely get a fair few games - I have no problem with that. But it has to be because the incoming manager feels he has something to offer AND Rooney is willing to accept a diminished status given his age AND because no offer came in that made sense for all parties.
His record and what he has done for the club should not come into it at all.
Having said that, I fear it will, which is a sad indictment of where this club is right now.
He's had every chance to break the record this season, if he doesnt he will have nobody to blame but himself. As I said before, it we want to keep him for football reasons, and relegate him to the status of squad player - where he will surely get a fair few games - I have no problem with that. But it has to be because the incoming manager feels he has something to offer AND Rooney is willing to accept a diminished status given his age AND because no offer came in that made sense for all parties.
His record and what he has done for the club should not come into it at all.
Having said that, I fear it will, which is a sad indictment of where this club is right now.
Who said you make decisions? Read, mate, read.
Well stop stating things as if they're facts when you don't know what's happening behind the scenes. For example, Moyes had a six-year contract - which was made very public - yet he was unceremoniously dumped
Everyone agrees on that part. We should though, as it's absolutely moronic to keep this charade going where we pretend he's a great player. The fact that we would never do it says it all about the way the club operates. Either get rid or make him susceptible to meritocracy. Individuals honours mean nothing compared to the club itself.
It's not really his place to not accept it. He can find himself a new club if be wants. If this does happens I see only Rooney impacted badly.
In 2019 he has a guaranteed contract with top salary. He will definitely be in the club.
In 2019 he will be the all time top scorer of Man Utd. A legend, surpassing Sir Charlton. All time top scorer! I don't know why some people fail to realize that this is a big deal! It is HUGE!
No senior player with "legend" status has ever been stripped of the captaincy! Rooney will be the captain for as long as he is a player of Man Utd. I don't care to guess how many games he will play, but when he plays he will be the captain.
None of the above is sentimental. Is it the reality! I haven't touched the subject of whether he is a good player or not, nor the fictitious estimates of how good he will be in 2019 and how much he will play. Just hard, cold facts: In 2019, Rooney will be the captain of Man Utd.
wtf, are you serious?
I agree. He is massively important for the club, not so much for the team.
3 seasons away. Not a chance. I don't think his body or fitness would allow it. It will be like ripping of a band aid, sore for a moment but then relief. People keep saying he won't go to China but those crazy bastards would easily give us 50 million for him, should the club not seriously entertain an offer like that and would our legend record goal scorer not take that offer for a couple of seasons? What a parting gift it would be and it will cement his place in my mind as a true club legend.In 2019 he has a guaranteed contract with top salary. He will definitely be in the club.
In 2019 he will be the all time top scorer of Man Utd. A legend, surpassing Sir Charlton. All time top scorer! I don't know why some people fail to realize that this is a big deal! It is HUGE!
No senior player with "legend" status has ever been stripped of the captaincy! Rooney will be the captain for as long as he is a player of Man Utd. I don't care to guess how many games he will play, but when he plays he will be the captain.
None of the above is sentimental. Is it the reality! I haven't touched the subject of whether he is a good player or not, nor the fictitious estimates of how good he will be in 2019 and how much he will play. Just hard, cold facts: In 2019, Rooney will be the captain of Man Utd.