OT EVACUATED | Device signed as having been recovered, could NOT be detected by sniffer dogs

rcoobc said:
At home? Not your fault.

As a business. Yes. You can and would be fined.

Did he have the correct credentials?
Did he have the relevant experience?
Did he have the correct training or supervision?
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It's safe to assume that the answer to all those questions is yes.

Polite Poster said:
I have no idea but I do know that this incident is unequivocally United's responsibility and no reasonable right thinking person would say otherwise. Try taking off the red tinted specs, the situation is already embarrassing enough !
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You've long since shown yourself as not worth trying to sensibly discuss anything with.

JPRouve said:
If the company loaned Old trafford then yes United are responsible. If United were client of the company then no, United aren't responsible but United should have a better control of Old trafford and 4 days without checking thoroughly the stadium is strange.
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That's definitely poor to say the least, and the number of checks carried out as standard will definitely be changing now!
 
Big Andy said:
I was speaking to a copper outside the stadium about 4ish yesterday, and he said they'll only know what it is ONCE they've controlled exploded it...he was saying it could be a Ben 10 lunchbox with a baguette in it, and they'd just explode it and then check afterwards...

They fire a high speed jet of water at it, to feck it it up, and then check through the leftovers to piece together what it was...only then were they SURE that it as a decoy, and in my opinion, that's the right way to do it...

The way they dealt with it, was great I reckon...there was no panic, nobody running about, although I didn't even make it into the ground...
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I think it's pretty universally agreed that the reaction to finding this device was completely right and top notch. It's WHY it was there, not found before the crowd were already mostly in and who is responsible that people are arguing about.
 
Do we need to use the same squad as Saturday or can we announce a new one? I'd imagine Van Gaal would want to rest a bunch of players if possible.
 
rcoobc said:
Not having a go at anyone, just thinking...;

I wonder if the same people who blame the security company, and not United, are also the type to say that we live in a world where "health and safety's gone mad". It seems to me that both opinions are similar; that blame can only fall onto a singular person or entity and is not a shared responsibility.

Could be a personality thing
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Except most people would argue the security firm is to blame and not just an individual, so whatever point your making about people is irrelevant
 
togg said:
I think it's pretty universally agreed that the reaction to finding this device was completely right and top notch. It's WHY it was there, not found before the crowd were already mostly in and who is responsible that people are arguing about.
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Well I heard that the Safety Certificate demands a full security seep 24 hours before the game...which obviously either didn't happen, or more likely, wasn't done very well...

Either way, when you look at it, it's cost United a fortune...not only in refunds, etc, but all those pies, hot dogs, etc which I'm assuming went to waste...(or more likely, will be kept at Nuclear temperatures until Tuesday and re-sold)
 
rcoobc said:
At home? Not your fault.

As a business. Yes. You can and would be fined.

Did he have the correct credentials?
Did he have the relevant experience?
Did he have the correct training or supervision?
Click to expand...

What's the point in hiring a security firm for their expertise if you are then responsible for the security yourself.

In certain that either the security firm or their insurance will be taking responsibility here.
 
Big Andy said:
Well I heard that the Safety Certificate demands a full security seep 24 hours before the game...which obviously either didn't happen, or more likely, wasn't done very well...

Either way, when you look at it, it's cost United a fortune...not only in refunds, etc, but all those pies, hot dogs, etc which I'm assuming went to waste...(or more likely, will be kept at Nuclear temperatures until Tuesday and re-sold)
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I understand a member of the public found it? Which begs the question how the hell was it missed. I mean....what was he doing in that toilet that led him to find it that the sweep couldn't! :smirk:
 
togg said:
I understand a member of the public found it? Which begs the question how the hell was it missed. I mean....what was he doing in that toilet that led him to find it that the sweep couldn't! :smirk:
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I'm guessing some white powder...
 
Pexbo said:
What's the point in hiring a security firm for their expertise if you are then responsible for the security yourself.

I'm certain that either the security firm or their insurance will be taking responsibility here.
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Because you then don't have to supply, pay for and train the security. It doesn't absolve you of responsibility. It should certainly be cheaper than having your own full time security firm, especially when you are only going to need them once or twice a week.
 
Some drama queens in this thread, if anything the way the evacuation was handled and the refunding of fans/free entry to the replay says more about the club than the suspect package being mistakenly left behind.

Get a grip, the only embarrassing thing about this whole scenario is some of the fans reaction to it.
 
Rado_N said:
It's safe to assume that the answer to all those questions is yes.



You've long since shown yourself as not worth trying to sensibly discuss anything with.



That's definitely poor to say the least, and the number of checks carried out as standard will definitely be changing now!
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It is true I don't have time for fools. You are the one seeking to defend the indefensible.

Just for one moment suppose this device had been real and had not been left be a Company conducting a training exercise but had been planted by a terrorist. Then just suppose it had been set to go off at a time before or just as it was discovered. Just think about that and then think about how it later comes out that said device had been undetected in full view for several days prior to the incident.

There will be an enquiry into this and United will not come out of it well. Mark my words.
 
I can just imagine the security guy in charge of placing the fake bombs proudly chatting to a colleague after completing his task...

"Found a brilliant hiding place for bomb number 4, bet they'll never find that one!"
 
Rudie said:
Some drama queens in this thread, if anything the way the evacuation was handled and the refunding of fans/free entry to the replay says more about the club than the suspect package being mistakenly left behind.

Get a grip, the only embarrassing thing about this whole scenario is some of the fans reaction to it.
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It's pretty embarrassing.

Ruined the end of the season for the premier league (the Premier League would have loved another AGUERRROOOOO, as much as we would have hated it), ruined a day out for 70,000 people and many, many more around the world.

Okay, let's remove the hyperbole. No one was hurt or killed. The stewards, club and fans responded near perfectly as soon as it was discovered. This isn't anything like an Alton Towers or a NASA/Lockheed metric/imperial mistake. 10 years down the line people will have mostly forgotten about it. But it's not been a good weekend for the club.
 
rcoobc said:
Ruined the end of the season for the premier league (the Premier League would have loved another AGUERRROOOOO, as much as we would have hated it), ruined a day out for 70,000 people and many, many more around the world.
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I also think it took away our chance to put a bit of pressure on City. If we'd been winning our match they may have felt rather nervier in the final minutes of theirs than they did.
 
Polite Poster said:
It is true I don't have time for fools. You are the one seeking to defend the indefensible.

Just for one moment suppose this device had been real and had not been left be a Company conducting a training exercise but had been planted by a terrorist. Then just suppose it had been set to go off at a time before or just as it was discovered. Just think about that and then think about how it later comes out that said device had been undetected in full view for several days prior to the incident.

There will be an enquiry into this and United will not come out of it well. Mark my words.
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Don't disagree, but I don't think we can presume that every other Premier League stadium, including yours, has better security than United - so perhaps our mistake can help all clubs update their security measures. Sure, if the authorities want to punish us fine, dock us three points - won't make a lot of difference to our season to be honest!!
 
It's just great seeing people desperate to see this as an extension of 'United's shambolic season' or whatever. :lol:
 
Slops said:
It's just great seeing people desperate to see this as an extension of 'United's shambolic season' or whatever. :lol:
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Well, I mean, regardless what portion of the blame you attribute to United (I fail to see how the answer to this can be zero, but I digress)... having the final game of the season cancelled because a security firm accidentally left a pretend bomb in a loo and nobody found it for a couple of days IS a bit of a shambles... thus, such a shambolic event will in turn be an extension of our completely shambolic season... even if it's got nothing to do with why our season has been a shambles before this point.

Shambles.
 
Polite Poster said:
It is true I don't have time for fools. You are the one seeking to defend the indefensible.

Just for one moment suppose this device had been real and had not been left be a Company conducting a training exercise but had been planted by a terrorist. Then just suppose it had been set to go off at a time before or just as it was discovered. Just think about that and then think about how it later comes out that said device had been undetected in full view for several days prior to the incident.

There will be an enquiry into this and United will not come out of it well. Mark my words.
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I thought that searching for bombs was done by the police sniffer dogs. I think that GMP are most at fault.
 
Annihilate Now! said:
Well, I mean, regardless what portion of the blame you attribute to United (I fail to see how the answer to this can be zero, but I digress)... having the final game of the season cancelled because a security firm accidentally left a pretend bomb in a loo and nobody found it for a couple of days IS a bit of a shambles... thus, such a shambolic event will in turn be an extension of our completely shambolic season... even if it's got nothing to do with why our season has been a shambles before this point.

Shambles.
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But it has nothing to do with football, and was left there through someone else's negligence, not ours. Make no mistake, our security may be responsible for not having found it sooner, but the lion's share of the blame has to be down to the external company that didn't account for all of their equipment, when their equipment is designed to look like actual explosives. :lol:

Even if it is on the club, I don't see how it relates to our football. It's entirely a police/security issue. For some it just seems to be any excuse to twist the knife, at this point.
 
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Gerald G said:
I assume it must have been a little hidden. For no member of staff to see this in pre-match sweeps and for no fan to see this before the member of staff found it, 20 mins before KO, it must have been quite concealed.

Obviously it's poor from the security firm but United are not blameless. It must have been lazy from whoever checked the toilets.
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It could easily be missed if it was as allegedly reported "taped to the back of a loo door". Go in, scrub the bogs one by one, I doubt every cleaner checks every little inch of a loo before giving it the all clear. But, as always, this little incident gives us a reminder to be thorough in our work and do the best job we can.
 
Working in Insurance & Legal for a construction company, this kind of scenario is not totally alien to me. Let's say we've been doing overnight work on a railway platform. When representatives of the Station arrive the following morning, they are required to sign to confirm that the platform is satisfactory. Then if someone trips over a screw (as happened once), we are in the clear.
This doesn't seem like the kind of scenario where United would feel the need to do such a sweep of the stadium as there were no changes to the structure taking place. Someone has decided, rightly or wrongly, that it would be assumed the training company had left the stadium in a satisfactory, mess free state. As soon as that company leaves, responsibility for keeping the stadium fit for purpose passes straight back to Manchester United. As careless as the training company are for leaving the device in situ, United are at least equally as culpable for it not being spotted before matchday. Fortunately the Title and relegation places are done and dusted because that would really have given the FA a headache. I hope this blows over quickly, mistakes were made and unfortunately they've been magnified because it occurred at a 76,000 seater stadium. Hopefully on reflection everyone can take the positives about how efficiently it was dealt with.
 
Rudie said:
Some drama queens in this thread, if anything the way the evacuation was handled and the refunding of fans/free entry to the replay says more about the club than the suspect package being mistakenly left behind.

Get a grip, the only embarrassing thing about this whole scenario is some of the fans reaction to it.
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Were you at the game yesterday? Just wondering....
 
rcoobc said:
- The security firm would have been hired by United. It's United's responsibility.
- Clearly the toilets weren't properly checked before letting tens of thousands of people in.

This is entirely United's fault. To be pedantic, the Premier League will blame United and United will blame the security firm, but the blame still goes through us.
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Its clearly not uniteds fault. Stop being a weirdo. I know you're angry after a few crap seasons but we don't actually know where the bomb was hidden so its not neccessary for us to blame united for everything.

No reason to clean the toilets since wednesday as no matches were played.
The 'bomb' was part of a training exercise so quite possibly hidden from view. If i came to your house and chucked some semtex down the back of your bog would you know? Probably not.

Absolutely the security firms fault. If a business hired a building company to make some changes and the building company injured a member of the public somehow, its the building companys fault. Not the business who hired them.
 
I don't know how you can attribute all of the blame on United, absolving the company that didn't account for all its equipment, considering the nature of that equipment.
 
So this security firm must have had a supervisor supervising. Ticking boxes. Also assuming this toilet was the place being focused on - there must be a group of people. Are we to believe not ONE of them remembered the 'device'? Surely they 'fake' detonated the device? (played the scenario). What did they do then? Forget the room they were standing in and why they were there? People naturally say it's a prank when they hear these kind of things but it goes further then that. It simply don't make sense that someone put it there and everyone forgot. It also don't make sense that we didn't hear about them until much later. Surely someone at the club has a record as to where these 'tests' are held and can put 2 and 2 together? Would be interesting to know, at what time did we contact them or whether they contacted us
 
It's not entirely Uniteds fault, it's not entirely the Security company's fault. Neither are entirely blameless and the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
 
The security firm are not blameless as they owe a duty of care to Manchester United, however the club owe the same duty of care to the 76,000 fans so there's no way we can pass on the blame. I would have thought a pre-match check of the toilets to confirm they are in an acceptable state probably takes less than 5 minutes.
 
The club will have to shoulder some of the blame, perhaps this is just hindsight, but surely someone who works for the club should be responsible for checking in / out items that are brought into the stadium, especially fake devices?

It's a little bit naive to trust a 3rd party company to do their job properly, regardless of what they specialise in / how experienced they are, ultimately somebody at the club should have been aware exactly what was happening. Of course the security company should take the majority of the blame, but I certainly don't think fans are overacting when they say this is shambolic.

The refund is a nice gesture but I'm sure I wasn't the only parent / grandparent having to keep a young Utd fan positive last night, for someone who has been looking forward to the game, listening to Utd stories and building up to the event for 2 weeks, it's fecking heartbreaking.

All in all, regardless of who is to blame, it's a complete and utter farce, one that could have led to serious panic and it's a bad day for the club.

Also, the rescheduled game, why put it at 8 o'clock? play it at 5 and let the school kids watch it.
 
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