Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

Winrar said:
what's with all the comparison with christianity? is it an attempt to deflect blame? plus I'm not a christian so I have no problem "admitting" that christianity has its fair share of problems when it comes to homosexuality, including dissonance with scripture and how the society has evolved today.

I wouldn't say that "islam turns people into dicks", but let's just say that it doesn't help. preachers spewing "gays must die" nonsense, whether it be islam or christianity, doesn't help outsiders warm up to their religion, whether it be their intention or not.
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I think its an incredibly pertinent point that attitudes to homosexuality are still incredibly backward in vast swathes of the Western world, with attitudes having only changed recently, and in some cases have not changed at all, and thats with years and years of stability, comfort, relative ease and access to good quality education. That they haven't changed in a religion whose strongest support bases exist in a different culture, in an unstable part of the world, and in ill-educated rural communities should come as no surprise (I appreciate this is a huge generalisation, but theres truth at the heart of it).

Religion by its very nature is conservative and resistant to change, and Islam's as bad as any for that, but instead of criticising an entire religion for some of its adherents actions we should be criticising those that carry out such intolerant acts and be attempting to facilitate the same shift in attitudes that has seen 'our' religions become accepting of the social norms in which we live.

The response to hatred with more hatred (in this case islamophobia) just entrenches that hate and inarguably is the result that IS wants.
 
NinjaFletch said:
I think its an incredibly pertinent point that attitudes to homosexuality are still incredibly backward in vast swathes of the Western world, with attitudes having only changed recently, and in some cases have not changed at all, and thats with years and years of stability, comfort, relative ease and access to good quality education. That they haven't changed in a religion whose strongest support bases exist in a different culture, in an unstable part of the world, and in ill-educated rural communities should come as no surprise (I appreciate this is a huge generalisation, but theres truth at the heart of it).

Religion by its very nature is conservative and resistant to change, and Islam's as bad as any for that, but instead of criticising an entire religion for some of its adherents actions we should be criticising those that carry out such intolerant acts and be attempting to facilitate the same shift in attitudes that has seen 'our' religions become accepting of the social norms in which we live.

The response to hatred with more hatred (in this case islamophobia) just entrenches that hate and inarguably is the result that IS wants.
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Very well put.
 
Winrar said:
you might have a point, but it's still worth noting that 100% of the 10 countries use Islam at some degree as justification for carrying out death penalty for homosexuality. qu'ran doesn't portray islam favorably, either. (and that has to be an understatement)

so I wouldn't count islam out. not even north fecking korea, who are arguably the worst country when it comes to human rights, carries death penalty for homosexuality.

I'll rest my case here as I don't think we'll come to an agreement, but I'll hear you out nonetheless.
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Well ofcouse they do, is it any different from banning same sex marriages by saying it's unnatural? People will always use the argument that is easiest to sell to the General public. Not really sure why you are singling out Islam here though.

I hope you have actually read the whole of Quran before making that statement as it seems a strange and idiotic argument to me. Quran is the Islam so not sure how one can say it doesn't potray Islam favourably, you can say your interpretion of it doesn't potray Islam favourably but not that it doesn't since the Quran is Islam.

And am pretty sure north fecking Korea does have a death penal for it.
 
MJJ said:
Well ofcouse they do, is it any different from banning same sex marriages by saying it's unnatural? People will always use the argument that is easiest to sell to the General public.
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Indeed. Here we had people arguing that allowing gay marriage will lead to people marrying animals.
 
SwansonsTache said:
The fact is that a Salafist preacher in the Orlando mosque did have a speech condemning gays to death just a short time prior, like shown in this thread.
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SwansonsTache said:
And agree, Saudi Arabia and Wahabbism has gotten an unfairly free ride due to hiding under the skirt of the US.
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Sorry for being pedantic, but I'm pretty sure the preacher in question is Shi'i, given his head-dress, his being based in Iran, and his speaking at a place called the 'Husseini' center in Florida (as mentioned in the video).
 
NinjaFletch said:
The response to hatred with more hatred (in this case islamophobia) just entrenches that hate and inarguably is the result that IS wants.
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Yeah but its easier.... you don't have to think so hard.

The fact that only about 25% of people ever gain the ability for abstract reasoning probably doesn't help either side of the argument, and in such circumstances its very easy and comforting to wrap yourself in the ideology preached by people like Trump.
 
2cents said:
Sorry for being pedantic, but I'm pretty sure the preacher in question is Shi'i, given his head-dress, his being based in Iran, and his speaking at a place called the 'Husseini' center in Florida (as mentioned in the video).
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Yes, Iran and the Shi'i movement are no angels as well. Altough I am uncertain if they have done as much to export their less than stellar views on the same scale that Saudi-Arabia and wahabbism has done, with Somalia, Afghanistan, Indonesia and Pakistan heavily influenced.

If I am not mistaken it was a young Osama Bin Laden plus Saudi scholars that took their wahabbism extremism to Afghanistan and turned their mujaheddin into jihad followers with the establishment of madrassas in Afghanistan and Waziristan.
 
SwansonsTache said:
Yes, Iran and the Shi'i movement are no angels as well. Altough I am uncertain if they have done as much to export their less than stellar views on the same scale that Saudi-Arabia and wahabbism has done, with Somalia, Afghanistan, Indonesia and Pakistan heavily influenced.
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I would say the Iranians have been every bit as active among global Shi'i communities as the Saudis have been among what they see as their own constituency, but obviously there being far far less Shi'a in the world, it has nowhere near the same global impact.
 
Carolina Red said:
We're a vastly multiethnic nation of 300+ million people with a Constitutional right to firearms, a terrible drug problem, high incarceration rates, a massive gang population, and gaping wealth inequality.

What other nation compares to us in the world?
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Think the point was more the doing nothing in response. You yourself have given suggestions on things that can be improved. Even if they don't work, actively trying to remedy the situation is at least worth something.
 
Carolina Red said:
Indeed. Here we had people arguing that allowing gay marriage will lead to people marrying animals.
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I think they had that argument all over and others drawing unfounded paedophilia links too.
Bizarre to leap from two lezzers marrying to some bird marrying a goat or whatever. You wonder what videos they've been watching.
 
The homophobia argument always ends up at the same place.... SEX! always. You never ever hear anyone mention the fact that it's two people in love. Nah, it's always about the sex. Perverted pricks are more interested in what goes on in the bedroom, they disregard anything else. That always irritates the shit out of me. So blatantly obvious what their agenda is.
 
kps88 said:
Think the point was more the doing nothing in response. You yourself have given suggestions on things that can be improved. Even if they don't work, actively trying to remedy the situation is at least worth something.
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Fair enough. I would agree with that.
 
langster said:
The homophobia argument always ends up at the same place.... SEX! always. You never ever hear anyone mention the fact that it's two people in love. Nah, it's always about the sex. Perverted pricks are more interested in what goes on in the bedroom, they disregard anything else. That always irritates the shit out of me. So blatantly obvious what their agenda is.
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yeah but they're poking each other in the chops, man.
 
langster said:
The homophobia argument always ends up at the same place.... SEX! always. You never ever hear anyone mention the fact that it's two people in love. Nah, it's always about the sex. Perverted pricks are more interested in what goes on in the bedroom, they disregard anything else. That always irritates the shit out of me. So blatantly obvious what their agenda is.
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This is so true. Can't tell you how many times a homosexual person has been mentioned and the high schoolers I teach say "Ew! That's gross!" etc.

I have fun messing with their heads on the issue though. On the issue of the repeal of Don't Ask-Don't Tell we had a big debate where I pointed out historical examples of excellent soldiers who were homosexual. Things like that... It is amazing how narrow minded people can be.
 
Dunno if its been posted but the FBI have confirmed the excuse for a human that carried out the attack had been interviewed twice in the past, and bought the guns he used last week.

No red flags then?
 
Eyepopper said:
Dunno if its been posted but the FBI have confirmed the excuse for a human that carried out the attack had been interviewed twice in the past, and bought the guns he used last week.

No red flags then?
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See, that kinda thing should pop up. That is something that can and should be changed. You already cannot purchase or possess a firearm if you are a felon. I think being on a terror watch list should have some sway as well.
 
Carolina Red said:
See, that kinda thing should pop up. That is something that can and should be changed. You already cannot purchase or possess a firearm if you are a felon. I think being on a terror watch list should have some sway as well.
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Three words:

National Rifles Association.
 
Incidentally, Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), the largest Islamic civil liberties group in the States has condemned the attack and urged Muslims to donate blood as have the local mosques/other groups.

Furthermore, the mayor of my home city was among 5 out of the 8 Muslim MPs who voted to legalise same sex marriage. Attitudes towards homosexuality in general in the western world, among muslims is variable in my opinion. Among the more conservative minded ones it would be more or less no more hostile towards homosexuality than say the evangelicals.

Such a senseless tragedy i can't even imagine what the families must be going through.
 
langster said:
The homophobia argument always ends up at the same place.... SEX! always. You never ever hear anyone mention the fact that it's two people in love. Nah, it's always about the sex. Perverted pricks are more interested in what goes on in the bedroom, they disregard anything else. That always irritates the shit out of me. So blatantly obvious what their agenda is.
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Yeah, there's a weird obsession with the actual act.
 
theyneverlearn said:
How much money does America make yearly from guns?
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Not sure how much the US itself takes in, but the global arms trade is the second largest industry in the world behind oil (illegal drugs come in third).

I would imagine the US domestic gun market is worth a fortune though.
 
langster said:
It's really strange, and always mentioned. There has to be a reason for it, i'm sure a psychologist would be able to explain.
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Not sure about Islam but in Christianity some of the weird obsession with sex comes down to repression as a result of celibacy. Not just gay sex either, for decades priests were obsessed with sex. After childbirth women were forced to go be blessed to 'cleanse' them before they were allowed back in churches.

In general some of the homophobia in the church stems from the fact that gay people don't have kids. The more kids you have the more likely you are to live in poverty, the higher the degree of poverty the more devotion to religion you find (same applies to the use of contraception).

I'm not familiar with Islamic teaching but I would imagine there is at least some crossover.
 
Arruda said:
There was a viral video about an "hero" who shot two guys that were doing an armed robbery in some kind of crowded establishment (restaurant, cafe, not sure). The guy jumps from his chair with a gun, hits one of them, and they both run away. It all turned out well, fortunately, the guys were probably cowards or bluffers.

Hero my ass. A major idiot, more likely. A standard robbery could easily have turned out into deaths, hostage situation, etc... If I'm in that place with my kids (or alone, for that matter) I'd much rather handle my wallet and be done with it in one minute than being potentially killed by a stray bullet or endure hours of being a hostage in very stressful situation. I don't understand how that man didn't get a bollocking from police or society at large. That was just luck in my book.

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Plus he shot them as they were running away, he should be in prison.
 
theyneverlearn said:
How much money does America make yearly from guns?
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It's not the money from guns that matters. It's the money from right-wing lobbies supported by backwards parts of the nation that control a sizeable portion of America's politics.

All you have to do is follow the money...except you can't anymore.
 
Eyepopper said:
Dunno if its been posted but the FBI have confirmed the excuse for a human that carried out the attack had been interviewed twice in the past, and bought the guns he used last week.

No red flags then?
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Did the FBI find anything when they interviewed him?


Just googled it seems the interviews did not turn up anything.
 
JustAFan said:
Did the FBI find anything when they interviewed him?
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It was on the news, I think they said he wasn't seen as a significant risk (or along those lines).

You would still imagine a basic background check would have thrown up a big red flag though.
 
JustAFan said:
Did the FBI find anything when they interviewed him?


Just googled it seems the interviews did not turn up anything.
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According to the FBI, the investigations were fruitless.

From CNN...
In the past, the FBI investigated Mateen for possibly having ties or being a sympathizer to Islamic extremism, according to a law enforcement officials and a U.S. official.
There were two cases opened on Mateen in the past, the law enforcement official told CNN.
The investigations didn't find evidence to charge him with anything, the officials said.

Officials earlier said Mateen was one of hundreds of people on the agency's radar suspected of being ISIS sympathizers. There was no indication he was plotting to carry out an attack, the officials said.
 
Eyepopper said:
It was on the news, I think they said he wasn't seen as a significant risk (or along those lines).

You would still imagine a basic background check would have thrown up a big red flag though.
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I don't think being interviewed by law enforcement becomes part of a persons criminal record.

I know people who have been questioned by the cops before including one coworker who got interviewed by the FBI as a person of interest in a child kidnapping case (he did not do it). I don't think that shows up against them if someone does a background check.
 
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