At least my definition makes sense.
Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Child abusers and alcholoics mainly
Given your last two posts have been nigh on identical to mine, I'm off to bed and I'll leave this in your capable hands.
It's also very different from Christianity. Next I imagine you'll be telling us that the Trinity isn't real.
To that point... How does this version of "Christianity" handle that whole Trinity debacle? Cause Christianity teaches that God is Jesus and that means it was Jesus who said that line in Leviticus 20:13. Just saying....
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But Islam is Islam is Islam.
Great minds and all. Cheers man!Are you saying every Catholic priest is either a child abuser or an alcoholic?
Both of you were in such a hurry to contradict me that you didn't read my post did you!
I said "God is the Anglo-Saxon word for Good"
I did not say it was the etymology of the word God nor did I say it originated from there.
What you said is factually inaccurate. I don't really know what you expect us to say?Both of you were in such a hurry to contradict me that you didn't read my post did you!
I said "God is the Anglo-Saxon word for Good"
I did not say it was the etymology of the word God nor did I say it originated from there.
Give over. You're getting carried away with yourself now.
Do you want me to apologize for telling the truth about Christianity?
Don't take my word for it. Go read the book for yourself... Just don't get upset when everything I've said is in there in black and white.
Well you haven't proven otherwise have you. You carry on bible wailing from the OT and I'll carry on believing in a good God. Like I said before, religion is purely and simply a personal belief system. Not fact, not necessarily true, not right or wrong, just a belief. Accept it for what it is.
Anyway this is the wrong thread to discuss religion.
Don't take my word for it. Go read the book for yourself... Just don't get upset when everything I've said is in there in black and white.
I can't make any sense out of that post either.
I'd be the first to declare that the Church needs reforms and solid reforms at that. There's undoubtedly a big part that religions plays in the hatred towards the LGBT community and I hope it ends soon at all churches. I know first hand that my church is all inclusive and I first knew about this Orlando shooting incident during Sunday service at my methodist church when the pastor described the incident and prayed for those who died and those who are suffering. She didn't declare that they had it coming because they were sinners. Not all churches preach gay bashing or gay hating. I don't know enough about Islam or how they teach their Imams/preachers, so it wouldn't be fair to comment on Islam.
I've read the book and what you say doesn't make any sense. Bible makes it clear that Jesus is not the God and what was said in Leviticus is/was not Jesus said. Trinity is not a 'debacle'. You sound like someone who googled Leviticus and is posting for the heck of it. You are free to believe what you want, but don't pass yourself as the authority on a religion you know so very little about.
@fishfingers15
The Nicene Creed, the cornerstone for the Christian faith makes it pretty clear about the Trinity. Father, Son, Spirit, all God.
Also, John 1... The word was God and the word was made flesh.
Pretty clear right there in the Gospel.
The Nicene Creed, the cornerstone for the Christian faith makes it pretty clear about the Trinity. Father, Son, Spirit, all God.
Also, John 1... The word was God and the word was made flesh.
Pretty clear right there in the Gospel.
I'll gladly take this to that thread if folks wanna discuss it further.
Word about what? Read what book? Why on earth should I get upset. Your posts aren't making much sense so I'm off to bed. Whilst I'm gone try not to get even more worked up just because I wasn't taught by bible bashers trying to ram Leviticus and such down my throat. We don't tend to be so fanatical over here. Religion's more laid back and we are encouraged to think for ourselves.
I really don't, currently, myself - maybe another day. At present, I'm just a bit bored of seeing a thread about a topic I wish to read about being bumped with posts that aren't about it.
Which you just did, coincidentally.
I recite the Nicene's Creed and the Apostle's Creed every week. I understand that Father, Son and the Spirit are the three components of Trinity. But 'God' as per Bible has always been clear without any ambiguity that it is the Father.
I don't really want to take this debate any further. I don't agree that Christianity as a religion preaches to hate LGBT community. I've been to churches in England, India and the US and have not seen this preached. There is always this idealogue at every place who goes to the extreme, but in the main, I've been only taught about love and how essential it is to listen to other people. It is true that I haven't been to a church in the bible belt states in US. I'm not that different to many of you here, I get angry when I see creationists block the teaching of evolution in school curriculum, and when people declare dinosaurs are a hoax or the earth is 6000 years old as much as the atheist and agnostic here at RedCafe. I understand that there are multiple problems with religion and there will always be on going issues on how the religion is interpreted by many different people, but not every church preaches gay bashing. That is my only point.
I'm limiting my post to just churches because I know very little about Islam as a religion.
From:
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/anderson-cooper-reads-orlando-shooting-victims-names/index.html
On Monday evening, less than 48 hours after the deadliest terror attack on American soil since 9/11, Anderson Cooper began his prime time program with a tribute to the 49 lives lost in the Orlando, Florida, nightclub shooting.
Noting that his broadcast would neither display photos nor mention the name of the dead gunman, the CNN anchor emotionally listed the names of those killed in the attack at Pulse nightclub as their names scrolled on the ticker at the bottom of the screen.
"In the next two hours we want to try to keep the focus where we think it belongs, on the people whose lives were cut short," Cooper said.
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/13/us/anderson-cooper-reads-orlando-shooting-victims-names/index.html
On Monday evening, less than 48 hours after the deadliest terror attack on American soil since 9/11, Anderson Cooper began his prime time program with a tribute to the 49 lives lost in the Orlando, Florida, nightclub shooting.
Noting that his broadcast would neither display photos nor mention the name of the dead gunman, the CNN anchor emotionally listed the names of those killed in the attack at Pulse nightclub as their names scrolled on the ticker at the bottom of the screen.
"In the next two hours we want to try to keep the focus where we think it belongs, on the people whose lives were cut short," Cooper said.
So Mohammed is only in favor of killing gay Muslims, how enlightened.
So recognizing Daesh (or DAESH) as a 'state' is accurate and honest? Righto. I certainly do not and therefore ISIL/ISIS/IS does not apply. They are not a recognized state and such their chosen name is not a proper term. Daesh, pigs, feck faces, maybe Ja'hish.
Political bias... I personally have no problem with "political bias" towards a group of barbaric murderers hellbent on bringing about the end of times in their misguided hateful minds.
Your post comes off as seemingly apologetic towards Daesh. Why so? Seriously, why does it matter to you if they are referred to as Daesh?
From what I've heard, there is an issue with focusing on things such as this. Anything that emphasises the body count can be dangerous when it comes to copycat incidents.
Still, sounds an awful lot better than most coverage.
EDIT - Appreciate you trying to get us back on topic, btw.
I've heard that as well, but it's a rock and a hard place I guess. You have to talk about it... and I think memorializing the victims is definitely better than giving air time to the killer.
Edit - No worries. I apologize for the tangent. I can do that sometimes.
I must say @Penna that paragraph is one of the most eloquent definitions I have read because you express a very complicated subject with simplicity and clarity.
As a Muslim, I've often struggled with what my religion preaches and integrating that with what I have learned being born into a western and predominantly agnostic/atheist country.
Simple human nature leads me to believe that murder, violence, or deliberately seeking to emotionally abuse another person is wrong NO MATTER WHAT.
There can be no grey area on this matter. That collides with the belief of some that 'free speech' must be admissible, even if it is grievously offensive. I have still not reconciled my final opinion to this but have to tolerate it, if I am to live in the UK. Im fine with that.
Likewise, I think adoption of children by homosexual people to be unnatural. Its a basic fact of biology: If gay people were meant to conceive, they would be able to produce children. My parents adopted a child (aged 2 months, now 22 years old) and its a huge challenge. I hope Im wrong, but let see how this first generation of 'children adopted by gay parents' turn out when they late teens and adults. If its broadly successful, I'm open to change my mind. But I'm not convinced.
However, just because I have this opinion does not mean I'm homophobic:
Firstly: Islam says respect the laws of the land and so the laws of the UK or multinational companies I have worked for prohibit me from exercising homophobic decisions: As a proudly law abiding citizen I take that into consideration in every decision I take when I encounter LGBT persons: be that hiring them for a job or encountering them in my social life. I once worked for a gay boss and had several gay friends, some of them muslims. I never come close to being aggressive with any of them because of their sexual orientation .. though I have been because one supported Chelsea
Secondly Islam prohibits violence in every situation (except lawful warfare) and instructs that you engage with people with kindness to express your opinion, whilst being respectful of theirs. And I have had fantastic debates with many of the gay people I have encountered.
I suspect 99% of Muslims I know in the west are the same. Perhaps not in Muslim dominated countries, but thats another matter.
Every-time one of these atrocities happen, I question myself if Im actually a Muslim:
How come I don't have the need or urgency to kill or harm people I dislike?
How come I don't misconstrue or take out of context verses in the Qu'ran?
How come I can live with ideological and cultural conflicts without the need to resort to violence?
Very quickly I work out these people are misguidedly appropriating their actions with Islam and so Muslims will need to continue saying and saying and saying what I realise every time:
Islam does not condone such actions and as a human being and a Muslim, I am horrified.
People who say it does are liars and use Islam to provide misguided validity to their warped and violent personal desires.
Why can't these people perform the Islamic instruction of influencing through logic, reason or kindness. And if you can't, gracefully move aside or cease contact and leave it to God to decide in the hereafter.
This man may have been born into a Muslim family, may even have practiced certain Islamic beliefs and traditions BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN his final murderous actions were Islamic, no matter what he may personally claim. Those were to do with his own demons and mental malfunctions.
Likewise, in this ever increasing globalised and technologically enabled world, having a myopic opinion that 'Im always right cos I'm a liberal' is naive and self defeating. Cultural Colonialism is the oldest power trick in the book, practiced by all great religions, civilisations and countries over the entirety of human history (including Christianity and 'Great' Britain!). We are fast evolving into a harmonised global value system and people in all geographically defined spaces will have to give a bit and take a bit, if we are to live harmoniously with one another. Having lived in or visited over 70 countries, I must say that modern day UK is one of the very best examples of that in the world today. But that is a vastly different topic!
Its worth me pointing out that even as someone who has many years of global cultural exposure and after much study, debate and thought, Im not perfect, don't have my own answers to several unresolved issues and strive to enhance my understanding over time.
Of course this specific instance is triple layered with the additional issues of Gun Control in the USA and homophobia existing in many other communities in addition to some Muslims. If I were to make a judgment on which of these three it is most closely related. I'd say its a Gun Control crime; Islam's view on gays is a related fact.
I'll end with a simple Islamic prayer I always read when Im emotionally affected by news of death and is meant with the best intentions:
May all those murdered be generously rewarded for all their great virtues and be forgiven for any sins they may have committed.
God know's best.
Amin.
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I'm sorry, but that's absurd.
If Koran was so backward, then why is Islamic threat such a recent issue? I don't see that as a big issue 50 years before? Wasn't it the same Bible the triggered such violence during Crusades/Inquisition before but currently has become 'far less are violent'? What Christianity did centuries before is very similar to what is happening with Islam now.
Your statement only holds good if you just take current situation as a standalone ignoring the lessons of history. Most religions are equally backward. Social and geopolitical circumstances are more likely to be blamed than some books that have not undergone major changes for centuries.
It's just naive and ignorant to not recognize difference between extremist and non-extremists. And I never mentioned anyone as a bigot in any manner of speaking in my post. It was a simple statement that the attack could be traced back to a specific terrorist group...wonder where you got the all the bigotry from that!
Of, we have intellectual discussions in media about our region, so we must be better is a sentiment that borders on arrogance. For supposedly developed 1st world countries many still grapple with abortion and other problems you mention...yet somehow try to judge developing nations in the same scale reeks of a blind judgmental psyche. Christianity went through it's cycle before and maybe it's Islam's time now. Get off your high horse.
My post was about the number of shootings, that article is all about shootings and deaths "per capita" and pretty much every single country on the list has a population smaller than the average US suburb. It is also written by the most gun loving person in America, which makes everything in it just a tad questionable imo..
It is a textbook article in how to make something look completely different by twisting the stats. He quotes Obama's claim that mass shootings doesn't happen anywhere else with the same frequency as the US and then compares everything per capita..
It has literally nothing at all to do with the number of shootings, and everything to do with how many people live in the country in question.
Case in point; if Sweden had 1 mass shooting in one day and the US had 29, according to that article Sweden would have had "more" mass shootings than the US.
It's laughable that people say to me your're muslim so you are homophobic, and I can't take it seriously when the homophobia is an issue in the west too. They may have legal rights (which LGBT community had to fight for, it wasn't given) but on a social level it's still rife, does this mean its not an issue in islam? No, but at the same time im not going to be lecured by hypocrites. Some dude in America was armed like rambo heading towards a gay rally in LA, thankfully he was stopped, may come as a surprise to some that he wasn't a Muslim.
I mean there should be a sold link. As someone from IS contacted him to carry out the specific attack.
IS continuously asks all devout Muslims to kill someone or the other all the time.
So a random lunatic killing people because the wires of religion in his head are all wrongly connected does not necessarily mean he was an IS operative.
Anyways, the fact remains that people like him kill others.
Who are you arguing with? The idea that Rednev, of all people, hasn't criticized Christianity enough. On which planet do you spend most of your time?
No, it's not about the definition of marriage because there is not coherent definition of marriage. Certainly not one based in religion.
A more honest definition would be to say that marriage is the sometimes voluntary union of two or sometimes seven or forty five adults or sometimes not adults who sometimes are capable of procreating or sometimes not who sometimes are of the same race or sometimes not when prohibited by governments or religions who sometimes love each other or sometimes love money or status or tax breaks or some combination thereof and can be dissolved by certain conditions being met or sometimes not which requires the starting of new religions.
Truly this is a sacred sacrament that we definitely can't let gay people take part in it because that would devalue it even though polygamy, anti-miscegenation laws, impotent spouses incapable of child bearing and tax code incentives didn't make a dent in the santicity of the institution.
Penna, you come across as a genuinely good person but if you don't realize that this is about discrimination you are deluding yourself.
No just the majority of the ones that taught me.
You can add nuns and christian brothers to that too.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I'm posting an opinion.
I'm still interesting in hearing which religions are tolerant of homosexuals.
None I can think of. At the same time, have a look at the few countries in which it is punishable by death and see if you can find a common theme.
You totally ignored the part where I said the hadeeth is most likely fake.
Because that's a circular argument. The fact that you think we will be comforted to know that Islam only thinks gay people deserve death if they are muslims is bizarre.
Of course the are other factors and the bible is a load of disturbing rubbish. It is just that the vast majority of Christians in Europe don't take it very seriously at all. Luckily in America the constitution separates state from church and the bible has no say in lawmaking.
The vast majority of Muslims do take the Koran literally and believe that it should dictate the law of the land.
In a recent poll (last month or so) 52% of British Muslims said they thought the homosexuality should be illegal in Britain.
This is a problem.