Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

So apparently this guy was a regular at the gay club he shot up...

Yeah mentioned that earlier on, think it's too early to say he is gay (there is a tendency to label every evil prick as a closet homosexual). He could have been scouting the joint and there are some reports that he was also scouting Disney earlier.

Either way the fact that he was getting drunk and being a dick indicates maybe there is more to this than we originally thought.
 
Well Mockney, I don't agree with you on that one. A religion is entitled to decide who may or may not be married in its particular rite.

It is, but that doesn't mean that decision isn't based in prejudice. As Eboue pointed out, a religious interpretation of marriage is wide, subjective and often contradictory and if those who hold by it can ignore outdated instructions to kill their kinfolk for wearing clothes made from different threads, planting crops too close together or handling a pig skin, then they can ignore any other command just as easily (do you really want me to get all Bartlett about it?)

The only reason they don't is simply because they'd rather not. And one particular interpretation of their preferred religious text give them an out not to do so.

So if you're going to use the argument that crazy terrorists and hate preachers are simply using religion as a tool to their own bigoted ends, then it's massively disingenuous to pretend the opposition to gay marriage (or indeed homosexuality full stop) is anything significantly different. As if there are loads of devout Christians milling about that would really, really love to allow it, but "gosh darnnit, that pesky scripture! Oh well."
 
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I know Christians whose children have cursed them and they have not killed them - sin after sin... no wonder the world is going to hell

It's daft to start with, and it's even dafter when you pick and choose what now applies to you (religion, not not killing your kids).
 
This whole debate about homosexulaty being an abomination in religion stems from a dozen words in the Old Testament. In the same chapter it states that you should not feck your mother/sister/daughter, father/brother/son, animals, wank, have sex on your period etc etc. It is given no more or less prominence than those other 'abominations'. Why it became such a big deal I have no idea.

Would an extremist go around asking people if they masterbate, at gun point, and then shooting them?

For reference, Leviticus 18:

Unlawful Sexual Relations
1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘I am the LORD your God. 3 You must not do as they do in Egypt, where you used to live, and you must not do as they do in the land of Canaan, where I am bringing you. Do not follow their practices. 4 You must obey my laws and be careful to follow my decrees. I am the LORD your God. 5 Keep my decrees and laws, for the person who obeys them will live by them. I am the LORD. 6 “ ‘No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD. 7 “ ‘Do not dishonor your father by having sexual relations with your mother. She is your mother; do not have relations with her. 8 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s wife; that would dishonor your father. 9 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father’s daughter or your mother’s daughter, whether she was born in the same home or elsewhere. 10 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your son’s daughter or your daughter’s daughter; that would dishonor you. 11 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with the daughter of your father’s wife, born to your father; she is your sister. 12 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your father’s sister; she is your father’s close relative. 13 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your mother’s sister, because she is your mother’s close relative. 14 “ ‘Do not dishonor your father’s brother by approaching his wife to have sexual relations; she is your aunt. 15 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your daughter-in-law. She is your son’s wife; do not have relations with her. 16 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your brother’s wife; that would dishonor your brother. 17 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son’s daughter or her daughter’s daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness. 18 “ ‘Do not take your wife’s sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living. 19 “ ‘Do not approach a woman to have sexual relations during the uncleanness of her monthly period. 20 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with your neighbor’s wife and defile yourself with her. 21 “ ‘Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molek, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. 22‘Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable. 23 “ ‘Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion. 24 “ ‘Do not defile yourselves in any of these ways, because this is how the nations that I am going to drive out before you became defiled. 25 Even the land was defiled; so I punished it for its sin, and the land vomited out its inhabitants.
26 But you must keep my decrees and my laws. The native-born and the foreigners residing among you must not do any of these detestable things, 27 for all these things were done by the people who lived in the land before you, and the land became defiled. 28 And if you defile the land, it will vomit you out as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 “ ‘Everyone who does any of these detestable things—such persons must be cut off from their people. 30 Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

Also note verse 29, "cut off from their people", not put to death.
 
Interesting interview with the shooter's father here...
http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/14/us/orlando-gunman-father/index.html

Highlights:
The father calls the event an act of terror.
The father does not forgive his son.
The father says he had seen no signs his son was radicalized, but did say that his son shocked him in his response to seeing 2 men kiss.
Officials say the son had a large amount of ISIS propaganda videos on his personal computer.
The father commiserates with the families of those killed and calls them "his family".
 
I think we need a Jewish perspective on Leviticus, as it was the law given to the Israelites.

I think they have better things to worry about.

Applicability of Biblical death penalty[edit]
Like many similar commandments, the stated punishment for willful violation is the death penalty, though minors under 13 years of age are exempt from this as from any other penalty (Sanh. 54a). However, even in Biblical times, it was very difficult to get a conviction that would lead to this prescribed punishment. The Jewish Oral Law states that capital punishment would only be applicable if two men were caught in the act of anal sex, if there were two witnesses to the act, if the two witnesses warned the men involved that they committed a capital offense, and the two men — or the willing party, in case of rape — subsequently acknowledged the warning but continued to engage in the prohibited act anyway. In fact, there is no account of capital punishment, in regards to this law, in Jewish history.

Rabbinic tradition understands the Torah's system of capital punishment to not be in effect for the past approximately 2,000 years, in the absence of a Sanhedrinand Temple.[4]

Classical rabbinic Jewish sources do not specifically mention that homosexual attraction is inherently sinful. However, someone who has had homosexual intercourseis considered to have violated a prohibition.[citation needed] If he does teshuva (repentance)—i.e., he ceases his forbidden actions, regrets what he has done, apologizes to God, and makes a binding resolution never to repeat those actions, he is seen to be forgiven by God.[5]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Judaism#Applicability_of_Biblical_death_penalty
 
I think we need a Jewish perspective on Leviticus, as it was the law given to the Israelites.
Didn't Jesus - who was a Jew himself - say he had come not to abolish the law but to fulfill it?
 
I was referring more to statements like this..



Which I would argue very much falls under the remit of "using religion as an excuse for personal prejudice" ... It's up there with "I'm not racist, but..." or "it's about ethics in gaming journalism".

If you don't feel like that, then my apologies, but the way you phrased it implied a sympathy.
:lol:
 
It is, but that doesn't mean that decision isn't based in prejudice. As Eboue pointed out, a religious interpretation of marriage is wide, subjective and often contradictory and if those who hold by it can ignore outdated instructions to kill their kinfolk for wearing clothes made from different threads, planting crops too close together or handling a pig skin, then they can ignore any other command just as easily (do you really want me to get all Bartlett about it?)

The only reason they don't is simply because they'd rather not. And one particular interpretation of their preferred religious text give them an out not to do so.

So if you're going to use the argument that crazy terrorists and hate preachers are simply using religion as a tool to their own bigoted ends, then it's massively disingenuous to pretend the opposition to gay marriage (or indeed homosexuality full stop) is anything significantly different. As if there are loads of devout Christians milling about that would really, really love to allow it, but "gosh darnnit, that pesky scripture! Oh well."
I answered the Mosaic Law stuff above with my quote from the NT, and although I can see why people think there's a contradiction, there really isn't. I don't know about the 'sola scriptura' Christians, but then, I'm not one of those.

And I do think yes, there are millions of Christians who have some major internal struggles with what their particular Church says about one thing or another and what they believe about that thing from their own life experience (particularly converts, who haven't been brought up in a faith from childhood). Some might end up leaving their faith, some try to fully understand why their Church says what it says and ultimately accept it, some put it to one side and get on with the rest of the things they DO agree with.
 
But it is to those who don't, hence debateable.

Yes, but you said we aren't savages anymore, we don't have the death penalty anymore. But to those who follow the bible or the Qu'ran strictly, (in certain interpretations) Homosexuals deserve to die for being homosexuals, regardless of the law of the land.
 
Chris Callen, a performer at Pulse in Orlando, Florida, told the New York Daily News that Omar Mateen had visited the venue over the past three years.

"I've seen him a couple of times at Pulse, a couple of other people that I've spoken with, including an-ex security guard, have actually witnessed this guy at Pulse many times before," said Chris Callen.

In one incident, Mr Callen said Mateen pulled a knife on a friend after being angered by a religious joke.

Despite this, Mr Callen said Mateen was a "nice guy... Maybe he got radicalised and hated who he was."

"Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent," Ty Smith told the Orlando Sentinel.

And another man, Kevin West, told the Washington Post he saw Mateen walking into Pulse in the early hours of Sunday, having already met him through dating app Jack'd.

"I remember details," said Mr West. "I never forget a face."
I think it's fair to assume you don't visit a gay club for three years purely to plan an attack. Nor do you meet people on Jack'd.

EDIT - Forgot the source.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36525219
 
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Yes, but you said we aren't savages anymore, we don't have the death penalty anymore. But to those who follow the bible or the Qu'ran strictly, (in certain interpretations) Homosexuals deserve to die for being homosexuals, regardless of the law of the land.

They must be savages then. My point was about the existence of god being debatable, which it is.
 
I think it's fair to assume you don't visit a gay club for three years purely to plan an attack. Nor do you meet people on Jack'd.
I'd have to agree with you there.

So the guy has been living with an internal conflict between who he is attracted to and what his religion says, becomes radicalized, and decides to kill those who he blames for his impure feelings as a chance for atonement (???)
 
I'd have to agree with you there.

So the guy has been living with an internal conflict between who he is attracted to and what his religion says, becomes radicalized, and decides to kill those who he blames for his impure feelings as a chance for atonement (???)

Sounds something like that.

As Christpher Hitchens once said, "Religion is the enemy".
 
I'd have to agree with you there.

So the guy has been living with an internal conflict between who he is attracted to and what his religion says, becomes radicalized, and decides to kill those who he blames for his impure feelings as a chance for atonement (???)
It is looking increasingly like that.
 
I wonder is ISIS are going to disown him?
though if he did have any profiles on websites Im a little surprised that they have not leaked out yet - I imagine news outlets are trawling apps right now
I don't know... If the scenario is as I posted above, it could be seen to their benefit.

"Look, we 'cured' the homosexual and got him to do God's work! He's in paradise now! Etc."

Knowing them, they'll find a way to use it to recruit more like him.
 
This whole debate about homosexulaty being an abomination in religion stems from a dozen words in the Old Testament. In the same chapter it states that you should not feck your mother/sister/daughter, father/brother/son, animals, wank, have sex on your period etc etc. It is given no more or less prominence than those other 'abominations'. Why it became such a big deal I have no idea.

Would an extremist go around asking people if they masterbate, at gun point, and then shooting them?

For reference, Leviticus 18:



Also note verse 29, "cut off from their people", not put to death.

Yeah, you (and a bunch of others in this thread) don't have a clue.

The act of homosexuality and Christianity/Judaism is incompatible. Full stop. I know everyone loves to run to their favorite chapter in Leviticus, but the entire Bible is full of verses that condemn the act, directly and indirectly. Even the NT contains scripture in Romans and Galatians that relegates people practicing homosexual acts (along with promiscuity, adultery, and any sex outside a heterosexual marriage) to damnation. Yeah Jesus said don't judge, but he also was a strict adherent of Judaic law, which in his time, was what is known as the OT today. The notion that he was a hippy who turned a blind eye to what was classified as sin by the Bible is laughable. (Source: took 5 years of Christian doctrine in high school)

I don't care about religion's attitudes towards LGBT behaviors. If any sexual activity outside a heterosexual marriage is forbidden, whatever. That's for adherents of that religion to follow. All I care for is that secular governments make laws that protect the freedom of each individual to live as he/she/(insert term for non-binary genders) so pleases. And for religious folk to respect the choices individuals make, and leave the judgement to whatever deity they worship. Which, the vast majority of religious folk do.
 
Islam also says homosexuality is a sin. So is there some order of precedence related to everything in the Quran which tells you to respect the laws of the land ahead of exercising homophobia? Or are you genuinely fine with homosexuality and it's your viewpoint that ensures you are not homophobic. Because, to be perfectly honest, the above passage reads like the only reason you are not homophobic is because Islam tells you to obey the laws of the land.
Can you please define your definition of homophobic?
 
I wonder is ISIS are going to disown him?
though if he did have any profiles on websites Im a little surprised that they have not leaked out yet - I imagine news outlets are trawling apps right now
Why would they, pack of child rapists. No morals in any of them, my personal opinion is that they are all fecked in the head. They have a whole region by the balls which is not hard to do in that fecked up place. I do believe it's time for the west to sit back and let them duke it out. That scumbag and those Paris dudes are US and European citizens which is a whole new problem for us.
After all the emotions I've had over the last two days it does bring a smile to my face that those horrible cnuts revel and take credit for a massacre committed by some one who was obviously gay. With the inevitable lack of debate on assault weapons this is my only sliver of silver on a dark dark day.
 
Yeah, you (and a bunch of others in this thread) don't have a clue.

The act of homosexuality and Christianity/Judaism is incompatible. Full stop. I know everyone loves to run to their favorite chapter in Leviticus, but the entire Bible is full of verses that condemn the act, directly and indirectly. Even the NT contains scripture in Romans and Galatians that relegates people practicing homosexual acts (along with promiscuity, adultery, and any sex outside a heterosexual marriage) to damnation. Yeah Jesus said don't judge, but he also was a strict adherent of Judaic law, which in his time, was what is known as the OT today. The notion that he was a hippy who turned a blind eye to what was classified as sin by the Bible is laughable. (Source: took 5 years of Christian doctrine in high school)

I don't care about religion's attitudes towards LGBT behaviors. If any sexual activity outside a heterosexual marriage is forbidden, whatever. That's for adherents of that religion to follow. All I care for is that secular governments make laws that protect the freedom of each individual to live as he/she/(insert term for non-binary genders) so pleases. And for religious folk to respect the choices individuals make, and leave the judgement to whatever deity they worship. Which, the vast majority of religious folk do.

I agree with you, but in the same way, incest, bestiatlity, masturbation, sex during period etc etc is also incompatible, and given the same prominence, but it is not pursued with the same fervour as homosexuality.
 
Yeah, you (and a bunch of others in this thread) don't have a clue.

The act of homosexuality and Christianity/Judaism is incompatible. Full stop. I know everyone loves to run to their favorite chapter in Leviticus, but the entire Bible is full of verses that condemn the act, directly and indirectly. Even the NT contains scripture in Romans and Galatians that relegates people practicing homosexual acts (along with promiscuity, adultery, and any sex outside a heterosexual marriage) to damnation. Yeah Jesus said don't judge, but he also was a strict adherent of Judaic law, which in his time, was what is known as the OT today. The notion that he was a hippy who turned a blind eye to what was classified as sin by the Bible is laughable. (Source: took 5 years of Christian doctrine in high school)

I don't care about religion's attitudes towards LGBT behaviors. If any sexual activity outside a heterosexual marriage is forbidden, whatever. That's for adherents of that religion to follow. All I care for is that secular governments make laws that protect the freedom of each individual to live as he/she/(insert term for non-binary genders) so pleases. And for religious folk to respect the choices individuals make, and leave the judgement to whatever deity they worship. Which, the vast majority of religious folk do.
SHIT, full of inconsistances and misunderstanding of science. Although full of tales of morality the stories have been around for much much longer. The story of Christ has been taken from more ancient gods. Christmas and Easter have been taken from pagan religions. All fecking Bullshit that has brought more misery and persecution then anything else we could imagine. Keep your fecking bible and quran and I will keep my Harry Potter collection, to me they are the same, fiction, and not a patch on Lord of the Rings.
 
I agree with you, but in the same way, incest, bestiatlity, masturbation, sex during period etc etc is also incompatible, and given the same prominence, but it is not pursued with the same fervour as homosexuality.
They seem to be ok with child rape though.
 
SHIT, full of inconsistances and misunderstanding of science. Although full of tales of morality the stories have been around for much much longer. The story of Christ has been taken from more ancient gods. Christmas and Easter have been taken from pagan religions. All fecking Bullshit that has brought more misery and persecution then anything else we could imagine. Keep your fecking bible and quran and I will keep my Harry Potter collection, to me they are the same, fiction, and not a patch on Lord of the Rings.
All the shit in LotR is caused by a fallen angel who dared to defy the one god. It's a better Book of Genesis than the actual Book of Genesis. Also, no killing of gays.
 
I agree with you, but in the same way, incest, bestiatlity, masturbation, sex during period etc etc is also incompatible, and given the same prominence, but it is not pursued with the same fervour as homosexuality.

Yeap. Stupid on the part of extreme Christians, but there you go.

SHIT, full of inconsistances and misunderstanding of science. Although full of tales of morality the stories have been around for much much longer. The story of Christ has been taken from more ancient gods. Christmas and Easter have been taken from pagan religions. All fecking Bullshit that has brought more misery and persecution then anything else we could imagine. Keep your fecking bible and quran and I will keep my Harry Potter collection, to me they are the same, fiction, and not a patch on Lord of the Rings.

Good for you, how is everyone on r/atheism?

Prejudice against Homosexuals or the feeling that somehow it's not 'normal'.

That's a weird definition (the second part at least). It's weird to judge people based on their feelings. If you are a Christian and think homosexual sex is wrong, but you don't discriminate against them and let them be, more power to you. Calling such people homophobic is childish, for lack of a better diplomatic word.
 
I think it's fair to assume you don't visit a gay club for three years purely to plan an attack. Nor do you meet people on Jack'd.

EDIT - Forgot the source.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36525219
Reminds me of the scene in Harold and Kumar, it goes something like " I'm not gay for getting my dick sucked, you are gay for sucking it". I find it very unnatural to have such hate towards a certain group of people unless it is affecting you personally on a deep psychological level.
 
Yeap. Stupid on the part of extreme Christians, but there you go.



Good for you, how is everyone on r/atheism?



That's a weird definition (the second part at least). It's weird to judge people based on their feelings. Ithe entire Bible is full of and think homosexual sex is wrong, but you don't discriminate against them and let them be, more power to you. Calling such people homophobic is childish, for lack of a better diplomatic word.
Hmm.
 
Which is from the Old Testament, which is all eschewed in the New Testament when Jesus makes a new covenant.
I do believe it's ok to kill you're children if they misbehave in the old testament. I'm always amazed with Christians that totally ignore the message in the new testament and quote the barbarism of the old testament on a regular basis. If the magical Jesus decided to come back he would everything these Christians despise.
 
Which is from the Old Testament, which is all eschewed in the New Testament when Jesus makes a new covenant.

Eschewed, as in erased? Well it's a shame that his apostles didn't get the message. And where does that leave all the other principles the NT references and is built on?