Mass shooting at Gay night club in Orlando

adexkola said:
Eschewed, as in erased? Well it's a shame that his apostles didn't get the message. And where does that leave all the other principles the NT references and is built on?
Click to expand...
His " apostles " couldn't seem to get their stories straight though plus their accounts were compiled decades after what they say happened. If it were modern times the Romans would have their case thrown out due to severe inconsistances in eye witness testimony and lack of a body.
 
adexkola said:
That's a weird definition (the second part at least). It's weird to judge people based on their feelings. If you are a Christian and think homosexual sex is wrong, but you don't discriminate against them and let them be, more power to you. Calling such people homophobic is childish, for lack of a better diplomatic word.
Click to expand...

How is it childish? You are basically suggesting that calling an entire group of people abnormal because they are gay is fine? Are we supposed to applaud the fact they don't discriminate or initiate violence against homosexuals?
 
Siorac said:
It seems questionable, yes, especially as we don't know if the control sample was of similar social status as the Muslims interviewed; that might offset the bias that comes from the selection process of the Muslims.

But it's still ignorant to claim that a sample of 1000 out of a population of 2.6 million automatically means the poll is bullshit. It might still be but certainly not because of that.
Click to expand...

Ignorant perhaps. But can you blame me with the amount of anti Islamic propaganda the media portray. Not going to trust this.
 
Akash said:
How is it childish? You are basically suggesting that calling an entire group of people abnormal because they are gay is fine? Are we supposed to applaud the fact they don't discriminate or initiate violence against homosexuals?
Click to expand...
I bet they are the first feckers to the voting booth if equal rights for LGBT people are on the ballot.
 
Perhaps the gunman was holding back repressed feelings inside?

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/break...ge-for-club-gunman/ar-AAh10Pr?ocid=spartandhp

---
The Orlando Sentinel and other news organizations quoted regular customers at the gay bar as saying they had seen Mateen there a number of times.

"Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent," said Ty Smith. Smith said he saw the killer inside at least a dozen times.

Jim Van Horn, 71, said he was a frequent patron at Pulse and said another "regular" there was Mateen.

"He was trying to pick up people. Men," Van Horn told The Associated Press late Monday outside the Parliament House, another gay club.

Van Horn said he met Mateen once. He said the younger man was telling him about his ex-wife.

"My friends came out from the back and said, 'Let's go take pictures on the patio,'" Van Horn said. "So I left. And then they told me they didn't want me talking to him, because they thought he was a strange person."
---
 
Last edited:
Akash said:
Prejudice against Homosexuals or the feeling that somehow it's not 'normal'.
Click to expand...

i don't think that is homophobia. Its the first description in my opinion. I think many things are 'not normal' but that does not mean I discriminate against them.

Random google search for definition of phobia: A phobia is an overwhelming and debilitating fear of an object, place, situation, feeling or animal. Phobias are more pronounced than fears. They develop when a person has an exaggerated or unrealistic sense of danger about a situation or object.
 
GiddyUp said:
His " apostles " couldn't seem to get their stories straight though plus their accounts were compiled decades after what they say happened. If it were modern times the Romans would have their case thrown out due to severe inconsistances in eye witness testimony and lack of a body.
Click to expand...

Shit, the entire bible would be thrown out then.

But you can't divorce Jesus from the rest of the Bible (which is my argument). I mean, you can if that makes you feel better, but that isn't what is said in those 4 books. I mean, the dude himself said he laid down all those laws from Abraham, including the shit in Leviticus. There are valid doctrinal theories that suggest some laws are invalidated by the new testament. Homosexuality isn't one of those though.

Akash said:
How is it childish? You are basically suggesting that calling an entire group of people abnormal because they are gay is fine? Are we supposed to applaud the fact they don't discriminate or initiate violence against homosexuals?
Click to expand...

We are supposed to applaud people who don't discriminate or initiate violence against any law abiding citizen who doesn't infringe on the rights of others. I don't care about anyone's personal beliefs.

How you jumped to that second sentence of yours is unclear to me, but if you're gonna put words in my mouth then you may as well just jog on.
 
This seems to have turned into another "I think all religion is crazy and evil/I disagree, I have a religion and it's important to me" thread.

I don't tend to post much on such matters these days, as we'll never come to a consensus on an internet forum which is primarily about football. You either have faith, or you don't. Either way, may the souls of the victims of the Orlando attack rest in peace.
 
Akash said:
How is it childish? You are basically suggesting that calling an entire group of people abnormal because they are gay is fine? Are we supposed to applaud the fact they don't discriminate or initiate violence against homosexuals?
Click to expand...

No-one was asking for your applause!
 
I tend to ignore these threads but has anyone discussed the fact he declared allegiance to ISIS, Al Qaeda AND Hezbollah? I'm usually quite critical of religion but I don't think it's the fundamental motive here.
 
Kaos said:
I tend to ignore these threads but has anyone discussed the fact he declared allegiance to ISIS, Al Qaeda AND Hezbollah? I'm usually quite critical of religion but I don't think it's the fundamental motive here.
Click to expand...

Did not know that. Yeah if he's declared his allegiance to every Tom, Dick and Harry. Clearly this was more personal than fundamental.
 
adexkola said:
We are supposed to applaud people who don't discriminate or initiate violence against any law abiding citizen who doesn't infringe on the rights of others. I don't care about anyone's personal beliefs.

How you jumped to that second sentence of yours is unclear to me, but if you're gonna put words in my mouth then you may as well just jog on.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. I mean it's great they don't go about killing people but I don't see that as anything to be applauded. They're still bigots and have too many of them around and you struggle to pass basic equality laws.
 
Kaos said:
Well those groups not only despise one another, but are actively fighting each other in Syria.
Click to expand...

Starting to wonder if he used his religion to mask his own homophobia rather than simply learning all of his homophobia from his religion.
 
Kaos said:
I tend to ignore these threads but has anyone discussed the fact he declared allegiance to ISIS, Al Qaeda AND Hezbollah? I'm usually quite critical of religion but I don't think it's the fundamental motive here.
Click to expand...

If he was gay and tormented about it then I would say that his religions views on homosexuality is at the core of his psychological distress. It looks like a twisted attempt at religious atonement in that light.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
If he was gay and tormented about it then I would say that his religions views on homosexuality is at the core of his psychological distress. It looks like a twisted attempt at religious atonement in that light.
Click to expand...

It's not just religion though, society as a whole hasn't exactly embraced the LGBT community yet. Go to any school in a secular nation and homophobic name-calling is still pretty much the norm.
 
Kaos said:
It's not just religion though, society as a whole hasn't exactly embraced the LGBT community yet. Go to any school in a secular nation and homophobic name-calling is still pretty much the norm.
Click to expand...

Still, I would speculate that his religious beliefs and indigenous cultural norms were the major complicating factors for him coming to terms with his homosexuality.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Still, I would speculate that his religious beliefs and indigenous cultural norms were the major complicating factors for him coming to terms with his homosexuality.
Click to expand...
The cultural norms most likely, considering his father is a first generation Afghan immigrant who supports the Taliban. Can't imagine his household being a beacon of LGBT tolerance.
 
Kaos said:
It's not just religion though, society as a whole hasn't exactly embraced the LGBT community yet. Go to any school in a secular nation and homophobic name-calling is still pretty much the norm.
Click to expand...
I do wonder if society as a whole was more accepting of gay people of a traditionally Islamic ethnicity if he'd have chosen to assimilate in to Western society, and indeed it's LBGT community, rather than attack it. He had a choice between siding with his homophobia or accepting himself and he chose the former. He was chatting up gay men in clubs and drinking alcohol, so it's not as if he felt the need to follow every element of his religion. He should be the sort of person who feels able to either compromise on his beliefs or walk away from them but for some reason he turned instead to extremism. If being gay and Asian was easier he might have chosen differently.
 
Beneath all the talking points is the one fundamental that's become standard: far too many men are unable to deal with their personal dilemmas without inflicting violence on others.
 
SteveJ said:
Beneath all the talking points is the one fundamental that's become standard: far too many men are unable to deal with their personal dilemmas without inflicting violence on others.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that's a very good point that gets missed in focusing on the specifics.
 
Akash said:
I don't think so. I mean it's great they don't go about killing people but I don't see that as anything to be applauded. They're still bigots and have too many of them around and you struggle to pass basic equality laws.
Click to expand...


I agree. It is quite ridiculous. Just holding this believe is already bad, because you´ll teach it to you children. If they are gay, they are in a tough spot. It also lays the bed-rock for other people to go one step further. Additionally, every major religion creates a spectrum of believers. If you have homophobic dogma, you´ll get people who will act on it. The only lasting way to deal with this is to reject any ideas that are inherently intolerant.

In any other context, these kind of statements would be condemned all day long (by reasonable people). Yet when religion comes into play most reasonable people expect you to tip-toe around those things. Even the most blatant statements of intolerance gets defended, because “religion”. Furthermore just because a group itself is victim of discrimination doesn’t mean it´s members can be intolerant.

Sadly I read way too many of this threads on the caf and various statements by people, who seem to be very progressive/liberal are shocking.
 
SteveJ said:
Beneath all the talking points is the one fundamental that's become standard: far too many men are unable to deal with their personal dilemmas without inflicting violence on others.
Click to expand...
I would argue that the number of those men is decreasing, just like the number of religious people who wish to inflict their own faith on others is decreasing as well.

The process(™) doesn't feel fast enough and horrific events seem to be occurring constantly, simply because we have access to news 24/7 from all over the world. It is the same as the perception that the world is somehow less safe than it used to be even though crime is steadily decreasing in most of the "first world".

So yes, there are far too many men who are unable to deal with their problems without violence. But there's less and less of them as our culture increasingly turns away from glorifying violence. At least that's how I feel - but maybe it's wishful thinking.
 
Siorac said:
What makes an investment fund gay?
Click to expand...

When it goes up in value? Oh, you don't mean gay as in happy.

While I guess it could mean you have to be gay to invest in it, but that would seem silly to exclude such a large potential client base. Perhaps it is a fund that focuses on investing in companies that have a strong history of supporting all it's employees regardless of sexual orientation?
 
Kaos said:
I tend to ignore these threads but has anyone discussed the fact he declared allegiance to ISIS, Al Qaeda AND Hezbollah? I'm usually quite critical of religion but I don't think it's the fundamental motive here.
Click to expand...

Aren't they at odds with each other though? It's meaningless.
 
DiseaseOfTheAge said:
I do wonder if society as a whole was more accepting of gay people of a traditionally Islamic ethnicity if he'd have chosen to assimilate in to Western society, and indeed it's LBGT community, rather than attack it. He had a choice between siding with his homophobia or accepting himself and he chose the former. He was chatting up gay men in clubs and drinking alcohol, so it's not as if he felt the need to follow every element of his religion. He should be the sort of person who feels able to either compromise on his beliefs or walk away from them but for some reason he turned instead to extremism. If being gay and Asian was easier he might have chosen differently.
Click to expand...

If you hate gays so much that you want to shoot a hundred of them, you don't sit in gay clubs drinking and chatting with them. I'd have expected him to be picketing and speaking out against the 'evil'.
 
Grinner said:
If you hate gays so much that you want to shoot a hundred of them, you don't sit in gay clubs drinking and chatting with them. I'd have expected him to be picketing and speaking out against the 'evil'.
Click to expand...
It's seems that his radicalization turned a personal internal conflict into a violent action as some form of evil repentance for his previous feelings. He was at a vulnerable point in his life and that kind of situation is where the radical elements cast their nets.
 
Jippy said:
It screens companies for LGBT diversity policies- a consultancy worked with Credit Suisse to build an index of them in the US.
Click to expand...

Why should even LGBT-supporting people base their investment decision solely on LGBT diversity policies? It's not like that creates ROI on itself.
 
Grinner said:
If you hate gays so much that you want to shoot a hundred of them, you don't sit in gay clubs drinking and chatting with them. I'd have expected him to be picketing and speaking out against the 'evil'.
Click to expand...

He hated himself because he was gay. It gets complicated from there.
 
Carolina Red said:
It's seems that his radicalization turned a personal internal conflict into a violent action as some form of evil repentance for his previous feelings. He was at a vulnerable point in his life and that kind of situation is where the radical elements cast their nets.
Click to expand...

Given what @Kaos has pointed out above, was he even radicalised? He declared allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah and Al-Quida - that would suggest he declared allegiance to hide any 'gay panic'. More likely cultural norms have kept an ongoing conflict which has lashed out in a disastrous way.
 
Javi said:
Why should even LGBT-supporting people base their investment decision solely on LGBT diversity policies? It's not like that creates ROI on itself.
Click to expand...
Feck knows, I just know it will get good traffic on our site though. He reckons it will appeal to SRI investors. The people behind it are credible and he was saying that is just a quant screen, which is underpinned by, er, bottom-up analysis.
 
Dwazza von Moosesteiger said:
Diversity promotes strength and innovation in companies.
Click to expand...

You're right it might, but would Lehman still be alive with LGBT policies? Just pointing out that it can't be a factor alone as it doesn't even reflect the product they sell so it seems stupid to make a fund with only that criteria.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Given what @Kaos has pointed out above, was he even radicalised? He declared allegiance to ISIS, Hezbollah and Al-Quida - that would suggest he declared allegiance to hide any 'gay panic'. More likely cultural norms have kept an ongoing conflict which has lashed out in a disastrous way.
Click to expand...
Earlier today I read an interview from CNN where police officials are saying he had a very large amount of ISIS propaganda and videos on his personal computer.

EDIT: Exact quote from CNN...
According to one official, analysis of Mateen's electronic devices showed searches for jihadist propaganda, including ISIS beheading videos.
"He consumed a hell of a lot of jihadist propaganda" online, the source said.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.