Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Ubik said:
If it states in the rulebook that the NEC decide the rules around leadership contests, then that takes primacy over some text on a website. If people didn't go and read the small print, it's their own problem. Joining the Labour party isn't solely about voting in a leadership election.
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Do you consciously just change your opinion on matters to suit your agenda or what?

"Some text on a website', they're taking money so unless the disclaimer is very clear which i can bet you it isnt then they'll at a minimum have to refund those fees.

Im pretty sure they could just refund rather than have to count these votes unless theres electoral law on the matter. Will they really refund that many new members?
 
Smores said:
Do you consciously just change your opinion on matters to suit your agenda or what?

"Some text on a website', they're taking money so unless the disclaimer is very clear which i can bet you it isnt then they'll at a minimum have to refund those fees.
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You want to point to me where I changed my opinion on this recently? Genuine question, I don't remember mentioning it before but if I did, my bad.
 
I'd sooner vote for May than Eagle. While I'd like the best for Labour and while I would like to vote for a party that I believe has the right values for a better society, I am by no means loyal.

I'd rather not vote Tory, but the way things are they're the ones who are best placed to lead this country, I feel.
 
Ubik said:
You want to point to me where I changed my opinion on this recently? Genuine question, I don't remember mentioning it before but if I did, my bad.
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I was giving your intelligence the benefit of the doubt as its a ridiculous opinion to formulate unless youre doing so under the direction of an agenda. It couldnt be clearer on the site and ive even just checked its terms a full member is entitled to vote and your provisional membership ends after 8 weeks.

They'll simply have to offer full refunds if they go down this path. Its also yet another petty move but hey im sure its just administration.

I doubt ill vote now even for Corbyn. Ive lost any trust in the party so dont think its right for me to do so knowing they might not even get my GE vote.
 
For all of Corbyn's inherent weaknesses the behaviour of the Labour Party at large has been nothing short of pathetic. Quite how anyone thought this was a good time for a coup is beyond me. A split, which seems inevitable, is only going to make them even more unelectable. Why couldn't they just get behind Corbyn for one GE, ride it out and say hey you know what this experiment has not quite worked let's change tact? Is that not like a 100 times better an idea than whatever the heck they are doing now? The working-class vote which they are so scared of losing can be swayed back over time as the reality eventually sets in that a Tory Government is not actually helping them.

Speaking to my Dad the other day who has always voted Labour and is not big on Corbyn, he said he was thinking of voting Lib Dem at the next GE. I am interested to see how much of an effect this whole saga in general has on the public viewing of the Labour Party, loyalists aside.
 
712 said:
How times change, eh?
Today we had the new leader of the Tory party calling for compulsory worker's representatives on company boards.
The seventies unions were a natural reaction to shit governments and shit managements, maybe over the years a few lessons have been learned all round.
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Progressive arguments generally win over time, but progressives are terrible at taking power in the UK
 
Untied said:
Progressive arguments generally win over time, but progressives are terrible at taking power in the UK
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Do they? On social issues maybe, but the economic consensus has definitely come down to the right of the political spectrum.
 
My local party have emailed me saying they are trying to find a large enough venue for our next AGM, and to please be patient. A huge turnout is anticipated.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Do they? On social issues maybe, but the economic consensus has definitely come down to the right of the political spectrum.
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Social issues and workers rights. Imagine a gay married couple claiming paternity leave in the 80s.

But yeah, in terms of the economic consensus there is much less optimism for change.
 
Untied said:
Social issues and workers rights. Imagine a gay married couple claiming paternity leave in the 80s.

But yeah, in terms of the economic consensus there is much less optimism for change.
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Social and economic issues are pretty intertwined though.

In the 70s a union's only recourse to injustice was often to strike, whereas now it is very much to use the law.
Unfair dismissal, discrimination by sex, colour, race, age, etc.
Through the 70s, 80s, 90s, millions more ordinary workers got access to sick pay, pensions, and fully-paid holidays that they didn't have before.
If we do go back to the bad old days @Marching recalls, it will be because of the reversal of these things, and of course, with zero hours contracts, reversal has begun with a vengeance.

Be nice if May really is 'one-nation' and addresses this, who knows?
 
Ubik said:
If it states in the rulebook that the NEC decide the rules around leadership contests, then that takes primacy over some text on a website. If people didn't go and read the small print, it's their own problem. Joining the Labour party isn't solely about voting in a leadership election.
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Advertising standards wouldn't allow that for any normal business, they shouldn't allow it in this case either.
 
ArmchairCritic said:
For all of Corbyn's inherent weaknesses the behaviour of the Labour Party at large has been nothing short of pathetic. Quite how anyone thought this was a good time for a coup is beyond me. A split, which seems inevitable, is only going to make them even more unelectable. Why couldn't they just get behind Corbyn for one GE, ride it out and say hey you know what this experiment has not quite worked let's change tact? Is that not like a 100 times better an idea than whatever the heck they are doing now? The working-class vote which they are so scared of losing can be swayed back over time as the reality eventually sets in that a Tory Government is not actually helping them.

Speaking to my Dad the other day who has always voted Labour and is not big on Corbyn, he said he was thinking of voting Lib Dem at the next GE. I am interested to see how much of an effect this whole saga in general has on the public viewing of the Labour Party, loyalists aside.
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Already switched to Lib Dem.
Corbyn really no Corbyn, the party is finished.
 
It'll be nice seeing the "centrists" use that to attack McDonnell while not being bothered by John Mann calling Livingstone a "fecking disgrace" in front of TV cameras

EDIT: And I'm not condoning it, but it's a symptom of party that is fully at war with itself. And if we want to play who started it, well it wasn't Corbyn and McDonnell — they may be failing, but Corbyn's first cabinet was full of centrists.
 
Untied said:
He has a point
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It's the audience, though. Going to a #JC4PM rally and celebrating like that because the guy who wants to be shadow chancellor calls other Labour MPs fecking useless, like "yeah we're such in a great state! Next step Downing Street!". I'm fairly depressed at how things are in the party on both sides, I have no idea how they can be like that at the moment.
 
MikeUpNorth said:
Do they? On social issues maybe, but the economic consensus has definitely come down to the right of the political spectrum.
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Depends how you're looking at it I suppose. The minimum wage is barely a century old and it's slowly heading towards being on par with the living wage. Whereas people have been gay for millennia and it's only in the last couple of decades that they started reaching social and legal parity. The tax system at least pretends to be progressive. There is a social safety net which didn't exist for most of human history. Corporations are king at the moment, but kings don't last.
 
Ubik said:
It's the audience, though. Going to a #JC4PM rally and celebrating like that because the guy who wants to be shadow chancellor calls other Labour MPs fecking useless, like "yeah we're such in a great state! Next step Downing Street!". I'm fairly depressed at how things are in the party on both sides, I have no idea how they can be like that at the moment.
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Yeah. As I just put above I'm not condoning it. It made me laugh, but it's pretty terrible as an indication that the party is fully at war with itself.
 
Never would I have imagined a major democratic party going to such lengths to undermine the wishes of their members. Why not just skip the maneuvering and just call us cnuts who shouldn't vote?

If Corbyn doesn't win Id honestly rather vote Tory the next election, at least they don't hide the fact they're a bunch of cnuts and I honestly consider Theresa May far more trustworthy than any of the rats from the Blairite element of the PLP.

I felt dirty even saying that but there you go.
 
Ubik said:


Cuuultcultcult
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He's right, of course, but there's a time and a place. This isn't the sort of thing to be saying in light of the accusations of MPs being threatened by Momentum. It builds a siege mentality, which, whilst good for getting elected, is incredibly bad if your stated goal is to try and bring the party together.

The split is inevitable now, regardless of who wins whatever election. Perhaps everyone will be better off for it in the long run.
 
Kaos said:
Never would I have imagined a major democratic party going to such lengths to undermine the wishes of their members. Why not just skip the maneuvering and just call us cnuts who shouldn't vote?

If Corbyn doesn't win Id honestly rather vote Tory the next election, at least they don't hide the fact they're a bunch of cnuts and I honestly consider Theresa May far more trustworthy than any of the rats from the Blairite element of the PLP.

I felt dirty even saying that but there you go.
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If Corbyn doesn't win it will be because he didn't get enough support from members.
I don't understand how you can vote for what will probably be the most right wing government in decades because you didn't get Corbyn. That's like from in extreme to another. There are other left leaning parties.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
He's right, of course, but there's a time and a place. This isn't the sort of thing to be saying in light of the accusations of MPs being threatened by Momentum. It builds a siege mentality, which, whilst good for getting elected, is incredibly bad if your stated goal is to try and bring the party together.

The split is inevitable now, regardless of who wins whatever election. Perhaps everyone will be better off for it in the long run.
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I don't think McDonnell gives a feck about winning elections and that's my problem with Labour at the moment.
It doesn't do me any good supporting a party who just want to protest. Labour don't have any prospect of influencing policy. And at a time where we are going to get the most right wing government in decades, we need a credible opposition.
 
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712 said:
Social and economic issues are pretty intertwined though.

In the 70s a union's only recourse to injustice was often to strike, whereas now it is very much to use the law.
Unfair dismissal, discrimination by sex, colour, race, age, etc.
Through the 70s, 80s, 90s, millions more ordinary workers got access to sick pay, pensions, and fully-paid holidays that they didn't have before.
If we do go back to the bad old days @Marching recalls, it will be because of the reversal of these things, and of course, with zero hours contracts, reversal has begun with a vengeance.

Be nice if May really is 'one-nation' and addresses this, who knows?
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Kaos said:
Never would I have imagined a major democratic party going to such lengths to undermine the wishes of their members. Why not just skip the maneuvering and just call us cnuts who shouldn't vote?

If Corbyn doesn't win Id honestly rather vote Tory the next election, at least they don't hide the fact they're a bunch of cnuts and I honestly consider Theresa May far more trustworthy than any of the rats from the Blairite element of the PLP.

I felt dirty even saying that but there you go.
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May the merciful!
 
Adisa said:
I don't think McDonnell gives a feck about winning elections and that's my problem with Labour at the moment.
It doesn't do me any good supporting a party who just want to protest. Labour don't have any prospect of influencing policy. And at a time where we are going to get the most important isn't wing government in decades, we need a credible opposition.
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Labour whips used to differentiate Corbyn and McDonnell by saying Corbyn was a lost cause, McDonnell's a shit. Is about right.
 
Adisa said:
If Corbyn doesn't win it will be because he didn't get enough support from members.
I don't understand how you can vote for what will probably be the most right wing government in decades because you didn't get Corbyn. That's like from in extreme to another. There are other left leaning parties.
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With these bizarre new voting rules it's possible thousands of Corbyn supporters may be prevented from voting.

I should probably add I'd never actually go ahead and vote Tory, only that I'd rather them than the Blairite cronies.

Chances are I'll probably just vote fringe or not even bother at all, I've become seriously disillusioned with democracy recently
 
Marching said:
Embarrassing that Corbyn is alienating himself from the Labour Party...his MP's hate him and refuse to form his shadow cabinet and now he can only get 17 votes from the NEC. Complete joke. Long may he run.
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They weren't voting for him, they were voting on a rule which could be interpreted either way. You'd have called it a farce no matter the result
 
Where I live, we've never been close to having a Labour MP and in more recent years, the seat has gone backwards and forwards between the Tories and the Lib Dems. I tactically voted Lib Dem at the last election (as I usually do, despite being a Labour supporter) and was pleased that the sitting MP held the seat. I can see the Lib Dems picking up a lot more votes at the next election, it'll be interesting.
 
So the new members can't vote...
Have had to be a member for six months to be eligible... That seems sensible to be honest but I imagine the corbynistas will be up in arms
Personally I might vote for Corbyn anyway as I think a split in the party or a total wipeout in an election might be the only way forward and he pretty much guarantees one or the other
 
Silva said:
Depends how you're looking at it I suppose. The minimum wage is barely a century old and it's slowly heading towards being on par with the living wage. Whereas people have been gay for millennia and it's only in the last couple of decades that they started reaching social and legal parity. The tax system at least pretends to be progressive. There is a social safety net which didn't exist for most of human history. Corporations are king at the moment, but kings don't last.
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Minimum wages and welfare are just tinkering round the edges of a capitalist system. Left wing economics is based on collective ownership.
 
Ubik said:
You're in Stella's constituency aren't you? Apparently a lot of Momentum folk there!
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Yup, loads I think. Momentum called me just after 7 yesterday to see if they can "count on my support". They seem incredibly organised, tbf.

Penna said:
It might. I used to go to many when I was young, all "points of order" in smoke-filled rooms. I also set up a local branch of the Young Socialists, but we were infiltrated (and ultimately taken over) by Militant Tendency - that was about the most exciting thing that happened. :lol:
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:lol:
 
Owen Smith says hes going to fight Jeremy on the issues. What madness is this!
 
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