Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

[Cheesy]

Look forward to the leadership candidates calling for unity and bringing the youth out to both vote and to Labour, with something that sort of resembles a straight face, in the coming weeks. You just have to ignore that whole reality *thing* to temporarily find the funny in it.

The incompetence of Labour and the contempt they're actively, openly showing for Corbyn's supporters is fecking shocking. How can anyone expect a new leader, regardless of his alignments, not to get utterly shredded apart by the Tories? Ed Miliband was criticised for the way he ate a sandwich; can you imagine the field day the Tories will have with someone who's stabbed Corbyn in the back?

Corbyn might actually be a better hope for the party in any election at this stage. He'll lose, yeah, but so will anyone from the party right now.

 

[Smores]

Women in the meeting said they'd received rape and death threats. Calling them (or anyone) "retards" is a little disgusting.

Whatever its a poor choice of words but the fact they've received threats does not mean they get to circumvent democracy.

Those matters should be dealt with seriously but on such a crucial vote you cant have secreacy. There's always going to be these threats over votes of importance but are you telling me every contentious vote should be done in secret to protect the MPs?

I could forgive the stupidity of holding thst view but its been purposefully used as a weapon to feed the media narrative

 

[Adebesi]

The incompetence of Labour and the contempt they're actively, openly showing for Corbyn's supporters is fecking shocking. How can anyone expect a new leader, regardless of his alignments, not to get utterly shredded apart by the Tories? Ed Miliband was criticised for the way he ate a sandwich; can you imagine the field day the Tories will have with someone who's stabbed Corbyn in the back?

Corbyn might actually be a better hope for the party in any election at this stage. He'll lose, yeah, but so will anyone from the party right now.

I think it's much for muchness. For New Labour type voters Corbyn seems like a pig headed, delusional megalomaniac. They're not going to vote for him, but they might - might - still vote Labour if they get someone "electable" in.

This is civil war. Only one half can be satisfied with any outcome, it's a zero sum game. More Labour members with Corbyn, more potential Labour voters if it goes against.

But actually I think the damage is done now.

 

[Sassy Colin]

I think it will be hilarious if he insists on staying, or rather is voted as leader again, and the party splits.

 

[Adebesi]

Whatever its a poor choice of words but the fact they've received threats does not mean they get to circumvent democracy.

Those matters should be dealt with seriously but on such a crucial vote you cant have secreacy. There's always going to be these threats over votes of importance but are you telling me every contentious vote should be done in secret to protect the MPs?

Is there? I'm not sure that's the case. Certainly not on this scale.

I agree with you about secrecy actually. But I don't think you can be so blaze about the behaviour of some people throughout this episode. Momentum would do well to crack down on it hard because I can see it turning a lot of people off.

 

[Cheesy]

I think it's much for muchness. For New Labour type voters Corbyn seems like a pig headed, delusional megalomaniac. They're not going to vote for him, but they might - might - still vote Labour if they get someone "electable" in.

This is civil war. Only one half can be satisfied with any outcome, it's a zero sum game. More Labour members with Corbyn, more potential Labour voters if it goes against.

But actually I think the damage is done now.

And this is the problem - the party is completely willing to feck over and ignore members under some vague pretence of maybe getting centre-leaning voters.

I think even that is unlikely to succeed for Labour. May's a fresh face, and for many centre voters will be welcome - on the news there's quite a few people who seem to be speaking fairly positively of her. She's actually probably going to come across as more personable and likable than any potential Corbyn replacement who's still got the knife in their hand.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

And this is the problem - the party is completely willing to feck over and ignore members under some vague pretence of maybe getting centre-leaning voters.

I think even that is unlikely to succeed for Labour. May's a fresh face, and for many centre voters will be welcome - on the news there's quite a few people who seem to be speaking fairly positively of her. She's actually probably going to come across as more personable and likable than any potential Corbyn replacement who's still got the knife in their hand.

I actually think the Tories are a much better party to be handling Brexit than the current centre left and unquestionably better than Corbyn's motley crew.

 

[sun_tzu]

Whatever its a poor choice of words but the fact they've received threats does not mean they get to circumvent democracy.

Those matters should be dealt with seriously but on such a crucial vote you cant have secreacy. There's always going to be these threats over votes of importance but are you telling me every contentious vote should be done in secret to protect the MPs?

till momentum can stop throwing bricks and threatening to rape people / kill them for disagreeing with their point of view then yeah I'd say so though obviously putting the people doing those things in prison should happen as well.

Vicky Foxcroft, a Labour whip, received a call to her constituency office which said: “If she doesn’t support Corbyn I will come down to the office and kick the f*** out of you.”

Police officers had to rush her office, close the shutters and attempt to trace the call after the man said he was on his way and hung up.

Another MP who resigned over Mr Corbyn’s leadership has received an email naming their child and threatening to kill them. Police have been passed the message and are now investigating.

A Labour source said: “Women MPs have been subjected to the most vile stuff – we’re going to rape you, kill you

 

[Untied]

Whatever its a poor choice of words but the fact they've received threats does not mean they get to circumvent democracy.

Those matters should be dealt with seriously but on such a crucial vote you cant have secreacy. There's always going to be these threats over votes of importance but are you telling me every contentious vote should be done in secret to protect the MPs?

I could forgive the stupidity of holding thst view but its been purposefully used as a weapon to feed the media narrative

I don't have a problem with it being a secret ballot, and that hardly circumvents democracy.

Why should a crucial contentious vote be influenced by the fears some NEC members may have of public repercussions?

 

[Adebesi]

And this is the problem - the party is completely willing to feck over and ignore members under some vague pretence of maybe getting centre-leaning voters.

I think even that is unlikely to succeed for Labour. May's a fresh face, and for many centre voters will be welcome - on the news there's quite a few people who seem to be speaking fairly positively of her. She's actually probably going to come across as more personable and likable than any potential Corbyn replacement who's still got the knife in their hand.

Yeah, clearly she's seen a opportunity among those voters.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is there? I'm not sure that's the case. Certainly not on this scale.

I agree with you about secrecy actually. But I don't think you can be so blaze about the behaviour of some people throughout this episode. Momentum would do well to crack down on it hard because I can see it turning a lot of people off.

Every time I read about Momentum members threatening people who lack their unswerving faith in their shabbily dressed leader I keep thinking of this lot. Presume I'm not the first person to make the analogy?

Spoiler: Jezza and his crew

 

[Smores]

I don't have a problem with it being a secret ballot, and that hardly circumvents democracy.

Why should a crucial contentious vote be influenced by the fears some NEC members may have of public repercussions?

Why should an MP or an appointed trade rep be able to hide thier voting record over fears it may harm their reselection?

Their safety is of utmost importance that goes without saying but this isnt the solution at all.

 

[sun_tzu]

Every time I read about Momentum members threatening people because of their unswerving faith in their shabbily dressed leader I keep thinking of this lot. Presume I'm not the first person to make the analogy?

Spoiler: Jezza and his crew

Spoiler: Dianne Abbot

Septa Unella

 

[Kaos]

till momentum can stop throwing bricks and threatening to rape people / kill them for disagreeing with their point of view then yeah I'd say so though obviously putting the people doing those things in prison should happen as well.

Don't you think you're generalising a tad bit there by labelling momentum as rapists and vandals?

 

[sun_tzu]

Don't you think you're generalising a tad bit there by labelling momentum as rapists and vandals?

meh - apparently im blairite scum who must support the war in iraq etc just because i think corbyn is a useless twunt so generalisations cut both ways

What is undeniable is that that some members of Momentum apparently feel pretty much any means justify their end goal - just as Im sure there are some members of the BNP who are not moronic racists but you know what they say about a few bad apples

 

[Drifter]

till momentum can stop throwing bricks and threatening to rape people / kill them for disagreeing with their point of view then yeah I'd say so though obviously putting the people doing those things in prison should happen as well.

There is no proof that momentum was responsible for a broken window. And anybody can hide behind a computer making threats .

 

[Ubik]

Corbyn now the most unpopular leader of the opposition (at this stage of leadership) in recent history

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Ed was pretty good, in relative terms!

The irony is, a vote for Corbyn is a vote for the Tories, not the 'Blairite wannabes', the actual Tories.

 

[Cheesy]

Ed was pretty good, in relative terms!

The irony is, a vote for Corbyn is a vote for the Tories, not the 'Blairite wannabes', the actual Tories.

No it isn't. A vote for Corbyn is just that: a vote for Corbyn. Unless you still hold any sort of belief that someone like Angela fecking Eagle has even the slightest chance against the Tories.

 

[Badunk]

The upside of all this is that people have been motivated to become involved in politics. The trend since forever has been to have greater and greater apathy among the electorate, but it's swinging the other way now.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

No it isn't. A vote for Corbyn is just that: a vote for Corbyn. Unless you still hold any sort of belief that someone like Angela fecking Eagle has even the slightest chance against the Tories.

The Tories have been absolutely over the moon with the rise of Corbyn because they have foresight, they are smart political operators. Corbyn destroys the relevance of the Labour party and if you vote for him you are facilitating that and the country being dominated by the Tories for the foreseeable, in my opinion.

 

[Cheesy]

The Tories have been absolutely over the moon with the rise of Corbyn because they have foresight, they are smart political operators. Corbyn destroys the relevance of the Labour party and if you vote for him you are facilitating that and the country being dominated by the Tories for the foreseeable, in my opinion.

The Labour party in general are destroying their own relevance by actively alienating the majority viewpoint of their membership. You may not like Corbyn, but the parties willingness to ignore the democratic views of their members and even try to exclude many from voting for the sole reason of who they support is fecking shocking.

The thing is that this is largely self-fulfilling. I don't think Corbyn's particularly skilled or talented politically, but he's quite clearly what the members want, and as a result the party should've tried to make it work. They haven't done so, though. They've worked to undermine him from day one, to say, "See! See! We were right." And now, they've discovered that it still isn't working, and that people still want Corbyn in charge.

It also shows a basic lack of taking responsibility. Last year it was the fault of the SNP for the Tories getting in. Now, it's the fault of Corbyn voters. When are Labour going to take some fecking responsibility? When are those trying to orchestrate, and those supporting, the coup, going to recognise that all of their plans have completely failed, that they are actively undermining the membership, and that their inability to get into power is not because of the SNP, or Corbyn, or anyone else...and due to the fact that they're not only unable to convince the country that they're best for government, but that they're also unable to convince even the fecking party that they are?

 

[Dobba]

The Tories have been absolutely over the moon with the rise of Corbyn because they have foresight, they are smart political operators. Corbyn destroys the relevance of the Labour party and if you vote for him you are facilitating that and the country being dominated by the Tories for the foreseeable, in my opinion.

Yeah I bet they hated the time before Corbyn when Labour MPs abstained. They have nightmares about being unopposed by the opposition.

 

[Marching]

The Tories have been absolutely over the moon with the rise of Corbyn because they have foresight, they are smart political operators. Corbyn destroys the relevance of the Labour party and if you vote for him you are facilitating that and the country being dominated by the Tories for the foreseeable, in my opinion.

Quite right.

It's one thing appealing to a couple of hundred thousand of the noisiest supporters but a whole different ball game to getting elected at a general election. The Labour MP's and anyone with half a brain can see this but sadly Corbyn is too stubborn to see it or even care. He loves being in opposition.

 

[Kaos]

meh - apparently im blairite scum who must support the war in iraq etc just because i think corbyn is a useless twunt so generalisations cut both ways

What is undeniable is that that some members of Momentum apparently feel pretty much any means justify their end goal - just as Im sure there are some members of the BNP who are not moronic racists but you know what they say about a few bad apples

Its one thing generalising someone as a Blairite, its quite another to generalise them as a rapist.

 

[sun_tzu]

Its one thing generalising someone as a Blairite, its quite another to generalise them as a rapist.

I recon most corbynistas think its worse to be called a blaitite dont they

 

[Classical Mechanic]

The Labour party in general are destroying their own relevance by actively alienating the majority viewpoint of their membership. You may not like Corbyn, but the parties willingness to ignore the democratic views of their members and even try to exclude many from voting for the sole reason of who they support is fecking shocking.

The thing is that this is largely self-fulfilling. I don't think Corbyn's particularly skilled or talented politically, but he's quite clearly what the members want, and as a result the party should've tried to make it work. They haven't done so, though. They've worked to undermine him from day one, to say, "See! See! We were right." And now, they've discovered that it still isn't working, and that people still want Corbyn in charge.

It also shows a basic lack of taking responsibility. Last year it was the fault of the SNP for the Tories getting in. Now, it's the fault of Corbyn voters. When are Labour going to take some fecking responsibility? When are those trying to orchestrate, and those supporting, the coup, going to recognise that all of their plans have completely failed, that they are actively undermining the membership, and that their inability to get into power is not because of the SNP, or Corbyn, or anyone else...and due to the fact that they're not only unable to convince the country that they're best for government, but that they're also unable to convince even the fecking party that they are?

Labour have been out of government for only two terms FFS. New Labour won three on the bounce. Gordon Brown was stained by being the chancellor around the time of the banking crisis and the fact that he had no official mandate. Ed was too left wing, not trusted to run the economy because of that and too weak a personality. All that said, Labour remained relevant despite that.

Corbyn and the hard left will destroy that remaining relevance, everyone knows it except for his supporters.

Yeah I bet they hated the time before Corbyn when Labour MPs abstained. They have nightmares about being unopposed by the opposition.

Do you really think the Tory delight around Corbyn's rise is feigned?

 

[Cheesy]

Labour have been out of government for only two terms FFS. New Labour won three on the bounce. Gordon Brown was stained by being the chancellor around the time of the banking crisis and the fact that he had no official mandate. Ed was too left wing, not trusted to run the economy because of that and too weak a personality. All that said, Labour remained relevant despite that.

Corbyn and the hard left will destroy that remaining relevance, everyone knows it except for his supporters.

You haven't actually addressed what I was saying, though: the party members quite clearly, by a distance, want Corbyn. Labour have made no actual effort or attempt to make it work, undermining him from as soon as he stepped into power. The opponents of Corbyn are just as responsible for the current state of the party, and their desire to deflect blame elsewhere for their failures shows why they are doing so terribly, when they attempt to mask their incompetence with other factors.

 

[Dobba]

Do you really think the Tory delight around Corbyn's rise is feigned?

I don't think they give two shiny shites either way. Whether Corbyn is in charge or not, the MPs in question will still dance to the Tory tune. Jamie Reed for example has already said that if he doesn't think they have the numbers to vote something down, he won't be voting at all. Even looking like you're against a bill is too left wing for this bunch.

 

[sun_tzu]

You haven't actually addressed what I was saying, though: the party members quite clearly, by a distance, want Corbyn. Labour have made no actual effort or attempt to make it work, undermining him from as soon as he stepped into power. The opponents of Corbyn are just as responsible for the current state of the party, and their desire to deflect blame elsewhere for their failures shows why they are doing so terribly, when they attempt to mask their incompetence with other factors.

I don't know... I think they are doing a pretty good job of undermining him

 

[Cheesy]

I don't know... I think they are doing a pretty good job of undermining him

They're doing a good job of undermining him, but they've been insipid and pathetic in their attempts to get rid of him. They've managed to somehow piss off a large portion of the membership (showing contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with their agenda) by not allowing some recent members to vote, they've somehow failed to present a viable leadership candidate (Eagle), and have also managed to look horrendously incompetent in the process. They're making Corbyn look quite skilled by comparison.

 

[Shamwow]

You haven't actually addressed what I was saying, though: the party members quite clearly, by a distance, want Corbyn. Labour have made no actual effort or attempt to make it work, undermining him from as soon as he stepped into power. The opponents of Corbyn are just as responsible for the current state of the party, and their desire to deflect blame elsewhere for their failures shows why they are doing so terribly, when they attempt to mask their incompetence with other factors.

They have no answer to this. You will only ever get glib responses or something along the lines of they know better and Corbyn is unelectable.

Corbyn's voters in the leadership election were more representative of the average british citizen than any of his opponents.

The only focus group study I saw in the leadership elections indicated that UKIP voters preferred Corbyn to all of his opponents.

Any poll of Corbyn AFTER the leadership election cannot be treated as poll of him in isolation - it's only ever a reflection of the party as a whole and the anti-Corbyn MPs have done their absolute best to ensure that the party looks as pathetic as possible.

In addition to that they've done a shit job of that that has reflected worse on themselves as it has Corbyn, thus ensuring that the party is doomed in the next election no matter who the leader is.

If you're a UKIP voter and Labour MPs are telling you "don't vote for our leader" then you will probably take great heed of that. Nice one Labour MPs, way to campaign for your party.

Corbyn has plenty of flaws but I'll vote him over the dirty rotten liars that currently look like they'll be running against him any day of the week.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

You haven't actually addressed what I was saying, though: the party members quite clearly, by a distance, want Corbyn. Labour have made no actual effort or attempt to make it work, undermining him from as soon as he stepped into power. The opponents of Corbyn are just as responsible for the current state of the party, and their desire to deflect blame elsewhere for their failures shows why they are doing so terribly, when they attempt to mask their incompetence with other factors.

Most of Corbyn's supporters were not even in the Labour party before he appeared on the ballot. Do you really think that Corbyn's camp wants this to work anyway? This is what they want. I have said before in this thread that neither side had any real interest in working with each other.

A centre left Labour is something to build on at least. A hard left Labour is suicide.

I don't think they give two shiny shites either way. Whether Corbyn is in charge or not, the MPs in question will still dance to the Tory tune. Jamie Reed for example has already said that if he doesn't think they have the numbers to vote something down, he won't be voting at all. Even looking like you're against a bill is too left wing for this bunch.

Case in point.

 

[Adebesi]

Every time I read about Momentum members threatening people who lack their unswerving faith in their shabbily dressed leader I keep thinking of this lot. Presume I'm not the first person to make the analogy?

Spoiler: Jezza and his crew

Angela Eagle is no Cercei.

 

[Shamwow]

Most of Corbyn's supporters were not even in the Labour party before he appeared on the ballot.

Corbyn would have won the election with or without new members.

 

[sun_tzu]

They're doing a good job of undermining him, but they've been insipid and pathetic in their attempts to get rid of him. They've managed to somehow piss off a large portion of the membership (showing contempt for anyone who doesn't agree with their agenda) by not allowing some recent members to vote, they've somehow failed to present a viable leadership candidate (Eagle), and have also managed to look horrendously incompetent in the process. They're making Corbyn look quite skilled by comparison.

I suspect the end game will be 150MP's walking en masse to form a new new labour party or some lib / lab coalition and becoming the official opposition whilst relegating Corbyn to the side line of politics (literally in parliament).
Corbyn will keep the Union money and new new labour (for want of a better expression) will hoover up as much pro eu business money as is available
It will be messy but I think a split is now an inevitability

 

[berbatrick]

The incompetence of Labour and the contempt they're actively, openly showing for Corbyn's supporters is fecking shocking. How can anyone expect a new leader, regardless of his alignments, not to get utterly shredded apart by the Tories? Ed Miliband was criticised for the way he ate a sandwich; can you imagine the field day the Tories will have with someone who's stabbed Corbyn in the back?

Corbyn might actually be a better hope for the party in any election at this stage. He'll lose, yeah, but so will anyone from the party right now.

The popular press was all for criticising Ed Miliband's eating habits. This hypothetical new Labour leaders needs to bring them onside ASAP, give them everything they want. Then the press can write stories about how insubstantial the Tory attacks are.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I suspect the end game will be 150MP's walking en masse to form a new new labour party or some lib / lab coalition and becoming the official opposition whilst relegating Corbyn to the side line of politics (literally in parliament).
Corbyn will keep the Union money and new new labour (for want of a better expression) will hoover up as much pro eu business money as is available
It will be messy but I think a split is now an inevitability

That is what my hopes for the future are pinned on at the moment.

 

[Ubik]

I suspect the end game will be 150MP's walking en masse to form a new new labour party or some lib / lab coalition and becoming the official opposition whilst relegating Corbyn to the side line of politics (literally in parliament).
Corbyn will keep the Union money and new new labour (for want of a better expression) will hoover up as much pro eu business money as is available
It will be messy but I think a split is now an inevitability

To be honest I can't see that many MPs going all at once. Some are too emotionally connected, some don't have the bollards, some will think Corbyn would fail eventually, some will (fairly) worry that a collapse in the Labour vote in the north will let UKIP run amok. And to have a chance of making it work I think you'd need about that many, as well as a lot of money spent on PR and advertising afterwards.

 

[sun_tzu]

To be honest I can't see that many MPs going all at once. Some are too emotionally connected, some don't have the bollards, some will think Corbyn would fail eventually, some will (fairly) worry that a collapse in the Labour vote in the north will let UKIP run amok. And to have a chance of making it work I think you'd need about that many, as well as a lot of money spent on PR and advertising afterwards.

if they dont momentum are just going to delselect all the ones who didnt back him in the confidence vote and put up a bunch of people who are undetectable so Im not sure doing nothing will be an option anyway