Kaos
Full Member
Drats, let's try again then:Too many "union leftys" in the Lib Dems.
https://www.conservatives.com/join
Drats, let's try again then:Too many "union leftys" in the Lib Dems.
Im voting corbyn as I want the party to split so we can bin the union leftys and form a party that at least has a chance moving forwards
This thread's become a good example of why the party's about to die, really.
The Negotiable Principles Party would be my choice.The Shadow Conservatives would be a good name.
Be careful or Ubik will put you on ignore.Waah
That is one pretty big change in the makeup of the membership.
Im voting corbyn as I want the party to split so we can bin the union leftys and form a party that at least has a chance moving forwards
Was referring also to the ratio of the membership that were pre- and post-2015 election.Isn't it a bit obvious that who joined whilst Corbyn was leader are more likely to vote for him? I mean they joined because they liked what they were hearing or what he isnt.
I doubt all those in the 57% would vote for Angela either to be fair.
Its a shame that there isnt a decent leader within the party that can energise both sides. I mean one side just wants a decent leader and the other wants the party to stick to its traditional values and actually be proud to represent these. It shouldnt be that hard
They did, Ed was a firm campaigner for it.On the subject of the possible death of the party, I find it hard to have sympathy for the more moderate side of the party with their arguments that they have to present an opposition to a Tory majority when they've had ample chances to introduce, or influence, a move to PR or a different form of voting which would've helped stop Tory majorities.
Blair/Brown were in power for 13 years, and won three elections. Scotland and Wales were given devolution with different voting systems (mainly to stop nationalists gaining majorities), and yet neither made a move towards a new PR system for UK elections. Doing so would've probably stopped any future majorities, and could've even allowed any eventual split within the party to occur more amicably, with the knowledge that the two forces could work together on coalition bases if that was required. They didn't though...because they were presumably more concerned with keeping power for themselves than denying it to the Tories.
Even after that, Labour could've fully committed to supporting AV in the referendum a few years back...which would've perhaps helped slightly, even if it wasn't an effective as PR, in denying Tory majorities. Again though...they didn't. Another chance to deny future Tory majorities blown.
Due to that I find it quite difficult to sympathise or empathise with the admittedly understandable concerns. I get that a lot of people here just genuinely want a credible alternative to the Tories, but the parties actions since the Blair era don't indicate that...it indicates a party who were more concerned with power for themselves than preventing the Tories from gaining power. That short-sightedness, and a lack of foresight from anyone within the party that future divisions or potential Tory dominance could be costly, has harmed them greatly. And only the party can be blamed for that. They had their chance, and they blew it.
They did, Ed was a firm campaigner for it.
This is true, but I still don't really think you can put the much of the failure to win the AV vote down to that, the vote was lost by 35%, it wasn't a popular change. I think a referendum on PR would go the same way, to be honest. You might even get more of a backlash to it now among leftwing folk that are concerned about UKIP becoming a (junior) governing party.Ed did, but the party as a whole was firmly divided on the issue. To say Labour fully committed to AV would be like saying the Tories committed to remaining within the EU because Cameron supported it...although perhaps less extreme.
And anyway, that doesn't negate the rest of my point...that the most effective way for Labour to deny future Tory majorities and ensure any splits within their own party weren't disastrous would have been through supporting a non-FPTP system, preferably a form of PR but also through AV. They conveniently dodged it for 13 years though, and many were still against the potential AV reforms, presumably intending to regain power in 2015 instead. A horrendous lack of foresight either way from the party, and one which will be costly for them. Kind of like how a lot of the brooding issues in Scotland were ignored and eventually came back to bite the party.
Personally I quite like Corbyn, on the grounds that he doesnt seem to be the typical self-serving politician that has arisen over the last few decades.
Don't think her heart was really in it .Despite her rhetoric.Was that the worst leadership bid ever?
I agree. She was just used to start the process, I think.Don't think her heart was really in it .Despite her rhetoric.
It is weird. I wasn't fond of either Burnham or Cooper, but would have both over Smith. Preferably Cooper tbh, as I think Burnham is slightly dense.This is stupid. Smith is a worse candidate than Burnham or Cooper. After 10 months of plotting this is what we get.
Burnham? Burnham ffs?
Iraq war support isn't a disqualifier anymore?Rather that than an ex Pfizer lobbyist.
Iraq war support isn't a disqualifier anymore?
Pfizer-man forms his own Avengers.So what happens when Corbyn wins this vote, as he surely will?
More than half his MP's form a new party and become the official oppositionSo what happens when Corbyn wins this vote, as he surely will?
The field gets awfully narrow if we take out Iraq War supporters. And it's already a terrible field of potential candidates.Iraq war support isn't a disqualifier anymore?
Not really, most of the people that declared no confidence didn't vote for Iraq.The field gets awfully narrow if we take out Iraq War supporters. And it's already a terrible field of potential candidates.
Who do you think are the best of them? Because I think they're all pretty average.Not really, most of the people that declared no confidence didn't vote for Iraq.
It's an easy generalisation to make, but I'm not sure it's true. People would've said the same about a month ago, and I'm not sure anyone would agree now that Jo Cox was average. Who, incidentally, would I think have made an incredible leader in a few years time. These kind of people do exist within the PLP, unfortunately at the moment there's little chance for them to make an impact without getting involved with the internecine warfare.Who do you think are the best of them? Because I think they're all pretty average.
Well, in fairness, Jo Cox was an MP for only a year. She was very good, but we didn't have long to figure out how good. I agree with you on the war in the party, it isn't doing anyone any good. I think the split should just happen already.It's an easy generalisation to make, but I'm not sure it's true. People would've said the same about a month ago, and I'm not sure anyone would agree now that Jo Cox was average. Who, incidentally, would I think have made an incredible leader in a few years time. These kind of people do exist within the PLP, unfortunately at the moment there's little chance for them to make an impact without getting involved with the internecine warfare.