Who was worse, Moyes or Van Gaal?

[Adisa]

Van Gaal being the bigger disappointment doesn't mean he was worse. There's a difference.
Van Gaal did well enough to earn a second year.
Moyes was rubbish from start to finish.

 

[shaggy]

Nothing will compare to the humiliation of that game against Fulham when we put in almost 100 crosses. Never felt so despondent about United than that day.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

And yet they're still here. There's been reports of clubs wanting Mata and Fellaini too. Mata is the one who'd find a club easiest out of them all. If Schweinsteiger leaves it will likely be us having to give him away or pay him off to subsidise his wages because nobody will be paying him to play for 20 minutes a game for half a season.

Again, my point was that Fellaini and Mata cost us near 60 million pounds and we won't be able to get anywhere near that for them. At least we got back 2/3 of the money spent on AdM when LvG didn't know what to do with him. The fees for Bastian and Rojo were much lower. And unless Bastian leaves on a loan, we won't pay a single pound of his wages, that's something you came up with. If Mata goes to Everton will we have to make up for the gap in his wages too? At least LvG left us some decent players too like Blind and Morgan, he helped Shaw and Smalling improve and he signed Martial.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Maybe, maybe not. But it's also quite likely he just genuinely believes Van Gaal was worse just as many people seem to think Moyes was worse. And hatred isn't that much of a factor in their thinking.

I've never met the bloke. My hatred was based entirely on his crapness as a football manager. If he wasn't so crap, I wouldn't have hated him. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. The crapness came first.

 

[RC89]

This is a fair point... that Van Gaal didn't finish in the top 4 last year is an absolute joke considering the money spent and the standard of the rest of the league.

Plus, he got us dumped out of the easiest CL group we could have asked for.

Also, Moyes didn't perform too badly in the CL from what I remember.

 

[Adisa]

We've been spending money like it's going out of fashion since Fergie retired. Under both our most recent managers. Van Gaal spent a lot more money than Moyes, though. You simply couldn't have matched that level of spending in the two transfer windows Moyes had available to work in.

It's not for lack of trying. Moyes tried to sign Fabregas and Bale. That would have taken him well beyond anything LVG spent. The lack of spending was partly his fault because he was dithering. You can't now use his dithery to exonerate him.

 

[Adisa]

I've never met the bloke. My hatred was based entirely on his crapness as a football manager. If he wasn't so crap, I wouldn't have hated him. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. The crapness came first.

The same can be said about Moyes.

 

[ti vu]

This is a fair point... that Van Gaal didn't finish in the top 4 last year is an absolute joke considering the money spent and the standard of the rest of the league.

Plus, he got us dumped out of the easiest CL group we could have asked for.

Not really. With hindsight we know, the club had always been ready to back Moyes. Club also gave Moyes a list of potential signings: Bale, even rumor of Ronaldo return, Pogba (as some rumor just started the last couple days about our interest in 2013), Strootman, Thiago, Herrera, Concentrao... Moyes had no pulling power to lure the like of Bale, Ronaldo, Thiagl, Pogba. Dithering on Strootman, Herrera, Concentrao due to he only wanted Cesc (not for sale after Thiago's departure), Fellaini (missed out cheaper buyout clause!) and Baines in bundle cheap deal.

So it's like someone who has all the money to spend, but too stupid and can't get the correct protocol to go to VIP shop to spend his money. Whose fault is it?

 

[NinjaFletch]

That's not rubbish at all. Van Gaal had more transfers to work in and more money to spend. He categorically had more time and money available to build a great team than his predecessor. That shouldn't even be up for debate.



At the same point in Januzaj's career we were all as excited about him as we are right now about any of our more recent academy graduates. Seems strange that you're absolving Van Gaal of any blame for him not developing on the promise he showed under Moyes. Does Mourinho get a pass if Rashford et al are left out in the cold this season?



And who's fault is that? Shouldn't a manager who spent as much Money as Van Gaal did have the squad he wants by his second full season in charge?

Of course its rubbish. Moyes had exactly the same amount of money to spend as Van Gaal. You're deliberately equating what Moyes actually spent with what Moyes was able to spend (and even then Moyes spent a lot of money). That he decided not to spend it doesn't mean he didn't have the ability to do so (by Moyes own admission he 'couldn't quite get' Gareth Bale but was desperate to sign him confirming stories that circled at the time, but initially denied by Moyes, that we'd bid for him). Even then, Moyes was given permission to spend a club record fee in January. Its factually incorrect to say that Van Gaal had 'more money available' to him on a season by season basis.

The point is sheer numbers. Youth footballers careers are inherently fragile. All of those might make it here, none of them might but its to Van Gaal's credit that he gave so many promising young kids a chance. Its to Moyes' credit he backed Januzaj too, but its the only example of trusting in youth.

Both of theirs I would argue. Van Gaal was not helped in the slightest by how badly Moyes stuffed it up with Rooney.

 

[Randall Flagg]

Lvg always had a presence and confidence about him

Moyes was a deer in the headlights who visably aged in the short spell

 

[Smoking_Owl]

I preferred Van Gaal to Moyes but both failed badly in different ways. However I dislike the argument of LVG finishing 4th in 2014/2015 as proof he was better. If Liverpool had Suarez and performed anywhere near the level they had done the previous season, there's no chance we'd have finished top 4. Secondly, LVG had no European football and got knocked out of the cups very early, which gave the league campaign a further boost.

This is why comparing and contrasting league finishing positions in different seasons and using them as a sole indicator of improvement/decline/success/failure is pretty dumb.

 

[Adisa]

Moyes took over a team that finished 1st. LVG took over a team that finished 7th. Not even debatable in my book.

 

[sugar_kane]

His football was by far more soul destroying than under Moyes.

Is this really true? I see this peddled around a lot.

Soul destroying was seeing us get buttfecked repeatedly by our most hated rivals home and away while our players ran around like they'd never played a football game together in their life.

Soul destroying was watching everyone from mid table to relegation candidates turning up at our ground thinking they could get a result (which then often happened).

Soul destroying was get to the byline, 90 crosses per game, conference level bollocks. With no back up plan.

Van Gaal was insane and arrogant but he had a plan, and he produced some great moments amongst the dross.

Over 6 years Moyes would have destroyed us as a club, Van Gaal given his final year would have maybe pissed off a few more players and fans but would have kept us in a reasonable shape for the next manager.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Not really. With hindsight we know, the club had always been ready to back Moyes. Club also gave Moyes a list of potential signings: Bale, even rumor of Ronaldo return, Pogba (as some rumor just started the last couple days about our interest in 2013), Strootman, Thiago, Herrera, Concentrao... Moyes had no pulling power to lure the like of Bale, Ronaldo, Thiagl, Pogba. Dithering on Strootman, Herrera, Concentrao due to he only wanted Cesc (not for sale after Thiago's departure), Fellaini (missed out cheaper buyout clause!) and Baines in bundle cheap deal.

Whilst a lot of that is true, it still doesn't impact that LVG did spend a lot of money and still didn't finish in the top 4 last year - when the league was the weakest its been for some time.

 

[Alock1]

Forgot to mention that. They both had one season of CL football and we looked better (and went deeper) in that competition under Moyes than we did under Vangle. Against tougher opponents.

Van Gaal's cup record outside of last seasons FA Cup was absolutely terrible. Under Moyes we got knocked out of FA Cup at the first opportunity, but we did make the semi-final of League Cup and quarters of Champions League.

Van Gaal got knocked out of a piss easy Champions League group, essentially wasting the top 4 spot he had gained and then put in 3 of the most pathetic and mind bogling halves of football I have witnessed in the Europa League against Liverpool. Domestically, in 3 of the 4 competitions we played we got knocked out by the first half decent team we played. In the FA Cup winning run, I'm not convinced we'd have got there if we had played anyone better than West Ham and a very disappointing Everton team.

 

[hobbers]

Tough because they were both so awful in different ways.

Van Gaal had the benefit of big name signings and a stronger squad (on paper), but his philosophy and his tactics were so fecking awful. Caused most of the players to regress, alienated many, and his brand of football bored us all to tears.

Moyes was a travesty, but his biggest failures were off the pitch. Motivating the squad, projecting the right sort of mentality, dealing with the expectations, scouting and transfers. On the pitch we saw what happens when top players are set up to play like underdogs.

Van Gaal was a bigger failure. He followed Moyes, not Fergie. He spent £250m+ on 12 first team players, for a 4th place and an FA cup, whereas Moyes only managed to sign 2 players. Moyes also managed a CL campaign that didn't totally embarrass us, unlike LVG.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Of course its rubbish. Moyes had exactly the same amount of money to spend as Van Gaal. You're deliberately equating what Moyes actually spent with what Moyes was able to spend (and even then Moyes spent a lot of money). That he decided not to spend it doesn't mean he didn't have the ability to do so (by Moyes own admission he 'couldn't quite get' Gareth Bale but was desperate to sign him confirming stories that circled at the time, but initially denied by Moyes, that we'd bid for him). Even then, Moyes was given permission to spend a club record fee in January. Its factually incorrect to say that Van Gaal had 'more money available' to him on a season by season basis.

Come on, man. Are you being deliberately obtuse? Surely you realise it's easier to sign the player you want when you have four transfer windows to work in than it is when you have just two? Shaw and Hererra being obvious examples of two players Moyes wanted to sign but we only got across the line after he left.

 

[balaks]

Moyes made a lot of mistakes but imo he was not given the same backing that LVG was and in that sense LVG was a bigger failure - plus he had the benefit of not being the first manager after Ferguson. Moyes was treated unfairly and should have been given another season imo.

 

[Adisa]

How can you guys say Moyes wasn't backed?
This guy was the one who said he wanted Fabregas and Bale when the world knew they wouldn't come.

 

[Enigma_87]

Also, Moyes didn't perform too badly in the CL from what I remember.

Two excellent games against Leverkusen and dull and boring wins/draws against Sociedad and Shakhtar. Then we could easily be out against Olympiacos in the second round. Not that good overall. Wouldn't say his group was tougher as well.

 

[Sarni]

Moyes was considerably worse than van Gaal even if I think van Gaal was pretty damn awful in his second season here. We played terrible football under van Gaal, were extremely boring at times and definitely did not fulfil potential but it was still miles better than Moyes era when we were a truly terrible side, getting absolutely battered by every single half decent opposition - 4-1 v City, 3-0 at home to both Liverpool and City, the away game at Olympiakos or back to back home defeats to Everton and Newcastle while being thoroughly outplayed. It was just on another level.

 

[Sarni]

Is this really true? I see this peddled around a lot.

Soul destroying was seeing us get buttfecked repeatedly by our most hated rivals home and away while our players ran around like they'd never played a football game together in their life.

Soul destroying was watching everyone from mid table to relegation candidates turning up at our ground thinking they could get a result (which then often happened).

Soul destroying was get to the byline, 90 crosses per game, conference level bollocks. With no back up plan.

Van Gaal was insane and arrogant but he had a plan, and he produced some great moments amongst the dross.

Over 6 years Moyes would have destroyed us as a club, Van Gaal given his final year would have maybe pissed off a few more players and fans but would have kept us in a reasonable shape for the next manager.

Somehow people reckon that getting beaten 3-0 at home by both Liverpool and City (and it should have been higher) was fine because we played attacking football. It's baffling.

 

[Adisa]

Moyes made a lot of mistakes but imo he was not given the same backing that LVG was and in that sense LVG was a bigger failure - plus he had the benefit of not being the first manager after Ferguson. Moyes was treated unfairly and should have been given another season imo.

Feck off.

 

[2 man midfield]

Certain things do sit in Moyes' favour, but I think that's more down to him inheriting the champions. The side he had was still a good one, we had lost only Scholes from the season before. We had the players and momentum to maintain some fear factor, as well as get some games over the line based on the players alone.

Van Gaal on the other hand, had to galvanise a team so low on confidence that the squad was split up. He had to start again, which was the main reason for the financial outlay everyone loves to use as a stick to beat him with. I'm not trying to defend Van Gaal either, but people forget that the money he spent was used to buy a whole new team - Moyes spent 67m adding to the best team in the country.

 

[Kag]

We've been spending money like it's going out of fashion since Fergie retired. Under both our most recent managers. Van Gaal spent a lot more money than Moyes, though. You simply couldn't have matched that level of spending in the two transfer windows Moyes had available to work in.

Van Gaal spent a lot of money but I'd argue that he simply had to. Our midfield had been ignored for about six years, Ferdinand was done, Vidic couldn't have gotten out any quicker and our wingers (Nani, Valencia and Young) were in rotten form. Moyes did nothing to combat any of that the summer prior and Van Gaal was picking up a squad that needed serious investment all across the board.

Moyes had access to the same level of funds, he (and Woodward?) just made a meal out of it.

 

[ti vu]

Whilst a lot of that is true, it still doesn't impact that LVG did spend a lot of money and still didn't finish in the top 4 last year - when the league was the weakest its been for some time.

That's his fault. I explained in my previous first post in this thread: LVG tried to build his club by his philosophy aka reinvent the wheel. So by doing that he is slow in the race, despite he has the resource to do better.

Moyes also had the resource but failed to do anything with it. The positive in Moyes season was due to SAF's lingering will in the team carried Moyes, not the other way around. LVG cleaned up the whole thing, so he's on his own to do his thing and he failed and also rightfully dismissed!

In term of who is worse, Moyes gets my vote because of that.

So United is a famous steakhouse. Moyes can't grill steak at all. LVG turned United into second class Chinese restaurant in pursuit of once day achieve Wings' level.

 

[Ish]

God, it's hard to say. Like choosing between pins stuck in your balls or your eyes.

Moyes was more out of his depth, more clueless, and probably worse over-all.

But Vangal was so wilfully shit - he had two seasons and spent them forcing us to play awful football which achieved nothing. The Cup win just saves him though.

Basically that

For the record, I'd vote Moyes was worse as he was literally woefully clueless and out of his depth. But give me 88 crosses > 0 shots on target any day of the week

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Van Gaal's cup record outside of last seasons FA Cup was absolutely terrible. Under Moyes we got knocked out of FA Cup at the first opportunity, but we did make the semi-final of League Cup and quarters of Champions League.

Van Gaal got knocked out of a piss easy Champions League group, essentially wasting the top 4 spot he had gained and then put in 3 of the most pathetic and mind bogling halves of football I have witnessed in the Europa League against Liverpool. Domestically, in 3 of the 4 competitions we played we got knocked out by the first half decent team we played. In the FA Cup winning run, I'm not convinced we'd have got there if we had played anyone better than West Ham and a very disappointing Everton team.

Good points. And we came extremely fecking close to failing to beat an Everton team that was in the middle of one of their worst slumps in PL history and Crystal bloody Palace in the final. Cup runs are a bad way to make the measure of a team but United under Van Gaal were generally fairly shit in every cup competition we took part in. The FA Cup being an obvious outlier..

 

[stevoc]

I've never met the bloke. My hatred was based entirely on his crapness as a football manager. If he wasn't so crap, I wouldn't have hated him. This isn't a chicken and egg scenario. The crapness came first.

Fair enough mate and i would say 99.9% of people on here have never met Moyes either.

Moyes was diabolical in the job and because of that many dislike and even hate him.

But the point i was making to the other guy was Moyes isn't being unfairly judged here just because people possibly hate him more than Van Gaal. Many, many people yourself included hate Van Gaal also. And his failures are much more fresh in the fans minds.

It's entirely possible and quite likely that most people just think Moyes was worse than Van Gaal regardless of their personal feelings towards the two men.

 

[golden_blunder]

Nothing will compare to the humiliation of that game against Fulham when we put in almost 100 crosses. Never felt so despondent about United than that day.

at least the team were going forward and it wasn't 100 back passes..

 

[Smoking_Owl]

I also disliked LVG's scatter gun approach, particluarly in his first window.

He go rid of Welbeck, Nani and Hernandez on far too much of a whim for my liking, despite it being obvious that the team would seriously lacked pace after those deals.

He wanted to get rid of Fellaini before giving him a chance. I remember being happy that a foot injury scuppered his move to Napoli, as LVG would actually be forced to take a proper look at him and he'd actually get a fair crack of the whip at United.

 

[TheRedDevil'sAdvocate]

Moyes was backed by the board. They just failed to grasp the concept that none of the top class players, like Bale or Ronaldo, would be willing to come and play under a completely unproven manager. Add to this the fact the the first team was in dire need of rebuilding and there you have it, a recipe for disaster.

By the way, when was the last time Moyes won the FA Cup, even with the easiest of all routes to the final?

 

[sugar_kane]

Somehow people reckon that getting beaten 3-0 at home by both Liverpool and City (and it should have been higher) was fine because we played attacking football. It's baffling.

Indeed, and I don't actually recall much of this supposed attacking football from Moyes's season...

Even Everton fans thought he played negative football. The fact they thought Martinez was the Messiah when he first came in says it all!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Van Gaal spent a lot of money but I'd argue that he simply had to. Our midfield had been ignored for about six years, Ferdinand was done, Vidic couldn't have gotten out any quicker and our wingers (Nani, Valencia and Young) were in rotten form. Moyes did nothing to combat any of that the summer prior and Van Gaal was picking up a squad that needed serious investment all across the board.

Moyes had access to the same level of funds, he (and Woodward?) just made a meal out of it.

Exactly. Moyes inherited all these problems and had far less time to solve them.

You say that Moyes did nothing to combat that but let's not forget that - for all their flaws - Fellaini and Mata were vital players for Van Gaal in achieving what little he did manage to achieve in his two years in charge.

 

[Adisa]

People saying Van Gaal had longer. He earned it by finishing top four in his first season. We did not let him carry on out of good will.
Moyes wasn't given a second season because he destroyed every reasonable expectation by finishing 7th.
People accusing us of hating Moyes.
I would say it's the people who think Moyes was better, are the one guilty of hatred.

 

[sugar_kane]

I also disliked LVG's scatter gun approach, particluarly in his first window.

He go rid of Welbeck, Nani and Hernandez on far too much of a whim for my liking, despite it being obvious that the team would seriously lacked pace after those deals.

He wanted to get rid of Fellaini before giving him a chance. I remember being happy that a foot injury scuppered his move to Napoli, as LVG would actually be forced to take a proper look at him and get a fair crack of the whip at United.

This is a very fair point, Van Gaal got rid of a lot of players he shouldn't have because they didn't fit his vision of what football should be. That's his lasting damage to the club.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I also disliked LVG's scatter gun approach, particluarly in his first window.

He go rid of Welbeck, Nani and Hernandez on far too much of a whim for my liking, despite it being obvious that the team would seriously lacked pace after those deals.

He wanted to get rid of Fellaini before giving him a chance. I remember being happy that a foot injury scuppered his move to Napoli, as LVG would actually be forced to take a proper look at him and he'd actually get a fair crack of the whip at United.

Another black mark against him. I can't think of any player Moyes moved on that subsequently proved him wrong. Same can't be said for Van Gaal. He bought badly and sold badly.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Van Gaal's cup record outside of last seasons FA Cup was absolutely terrible. Under Moyes we got knocked out of FA Cup at the first opportunity, but we did make the semi-final of League Cup and quarters of Champions League.

Van Gaal got knocked out of a piss easy Champions League group, essentially wasting the top 4 spot he had gained and then put in 3 of the most pathetic and mind bogling halves of football I have witnessed in the Europa League against Liverpool. Domestically, in 3 of the 4 competitions we played we got knocked out by the first half decent team we played. In the FA Cup winning run, I'm not convinced we'd have got there if we had played anyone better than West Ham and a very disappointing Everton team.

Thinking about our cup games over the last 3 years, there are some real contenders for the "that's one of the most mind-boggling stupid things I've ever seen award"

Pick from:

Olympiakos 2 - 0 United
United 2 - 1 Sunderland (AET - Lost on Pens)
MK Dons 4 - 0 United
United 0 - 0 PSV
Wolfsburg 3 - 2 United
Liverpool 2 - 0 United
United 1 - 1 Liverpool.

What a shit show. I've not even included a 0-0 draw away to Cambridge, the 2-1 3rd round exit at Old Trafford to Swansea (which I must confess, I don't remember a single thing about) and the 0-0 home draw to Boro in the League Cup last year.

The winners for me are the loss to Liverpool and the exit to Sunderland at OT.... two of the dumbest games of football I've ever seen.

 

[Mr Anderson]

Moyes by some distance

 

[Kag]

Is this really true? I see this peddled around a lot.

Soul destroying was seeing us get buttfecked repeatedly by our most hated rivals home and away while our players ran around like they'd never played a football game together in their life.

Soul destroying was watching everyone from mid table to relegation candidates turning up at our ground thinking they could get a result (which then often happened).

Soul destroying was get to the byline, 90 crosses per game, conference level bollocks. With no back up plan.

Van Gaal was insane and arrogant but he had a plan, and he produced some great moments amongst the dross.

Over 6 years Moyes would have destroyed us as a club, Van Gaal given his final year would have maybe pissed off a few more players and fans but would have kept us in a reasonable shape for the next manager.

Completely agree. Look, it wasn't great watching us draw 0-0 against the likes of Crystal Palace having had two shots on target, but I think some people are quick to forget just how awful it was getting humiliated by the likes of City and Liverpool.

We couldn't have possibly beaten those sides because our players had no idea what they were supposed to be doing to scrape a result.