Exactly. You cannot do it against City. Hope other teams realise that now as well.
Mourinho Post Match Comments
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
I'm not convinced we're using Pogba well, but in the grand scheme of things I think we need Martial in top form badly. In terms of the ability to run at defenders and have the ball glued to his foot at pace, he stands out.
What plan is that, exactly?
When I saw the line up I was actually slightly confused because usually when you concede possession don't you want to have quick players in attacking areas who can break fast and threaten in wide areas? That's the natural thought process of my layman armchair tactical mind So when I saw that it was Rooney, Ibra, Mkhitarian and Lingard, I found it a tad odd.
I don't think they do. They're obviously better in one specific area for me which is that they have top #10s whereas our top #10 has only just joined the league/club. Other than that, there's nothing much between the two sides. Subject to Gundogan being added of course. If he fires for them, I don't think we have anyone of that class as a CM.
Which is why the selection confused me. You'd think if the idea is to hit them on the break you'd want quicker players in your team.
Mhiki earned his start after his performance against Hull. Jesse I'm not so sure, maybe Jose considered him a bit of a big game player after the cup final and community shield.
I don't think Jose would make a decision based on a game a few months ago. He obviously had a plan, they train all week and the instructions where there and probably were worked out on that training field. It didn't work obviously. Having said that, if we are to compete at the highest level, I probably wouldn't have put Jesse at the start...but what the hell do I know.
We hoofed the ball to zlatan in the first half a lot who couldn't get a hold of it or knocked them to our players. The few times we countered them were when their players lost the balls to our pressing forwards.
If our short passings were having problems, the question is still there as why it had problem? We didn't create positions or pathes to bypass them or simply slows them down by holding the ball a bit etc?
Clearly if you want to play counter attack while absorbing the pressure, the passing has to be good. Usually on the ground. So if we didn't have plans for it or couldn't execute it, then the coaching staff has to take responsibility.
Also if he said the short passing were the problem, what was the solution or plan it? Hoof the ball? I mean what else there can be if we can't find targets to pass well?
It is just lame and easy excuse to me. The performance in first half was utterly ridiculous. Didn't seem like we had a plan at all.
I wouldn't get excited too much about 2nd half. City would always drop off to protect their lead. They would even be happy with a draw here. What we did was sending tall players all together and hoof and hope which City dealt with it well. I am sure even LVG or moyes would do as good with this squad with 4-5 tall players waiting at the box. What was special about it?
Wikipedia can explain it better than I:
Bayern'sBastian Schweinsteiger and Javi Martínez held a compact midfield that played crucial roles in shutting down Barcelona's Xavi's and Andrés Iniesta's attempts to pass forward at midfield, while Arjen Robben and Franck Ribéryproved effective on the wings.
Bayern's first-half tactics involved "fake pressing," pushing close to their markers in possession to drive Barça away from danger areas with sheer presence, while conserving their energy by not committing themselves, keeping Bayern's players fresh enough for the second half to mount attacks.
The idea was to play it direct to zlatan who easily bullied stones/otamendi in the air. Zlatan would then play on the on rushing attacking midfielders like hazard, Willian and Oscar...oh wait it's actually Rooney and fellaini...
See the problem? We got to get mikhi up to speed and play rashford and martial together ideally. Wayne Rooney is holding back this team in some ways. Reminiscent of the last years of Roy Keane. When we fielded a 5 man misfiled just to accommodate him.
Which makes you wonder why we paid all that money for Pogba. It is a lot of money if he doesn't have the sort of impact that Gundogan could. Do you think he could?
I think Lingard was chosen mainly for his graft which is quite understandable. In addition to that, Martial's struggle probably made it easier for him. But Jose should have considered Lingard's lack of match sharpness before throwing him into such a big game.
If you constantly aimlessly hoof it, chances are most of the times the other team will get the ball back which in other words inviting more pressure.
Early in the 2nd half, we looked more composed and comfortable and we didn't hoof the ball. That's because we had more passing options after having Herrera on the pitch. We created our own problem by going into this game with a 2-men midfield in Fellaini and Pogba. We might have got away with it in the previous games even though there were times when Southampton and Bournemouth had a better control of the game than our midfield did, but it's surely suicidal to play the same way against Pep's team known for its pressing and packed midfield.
No, but their players mesh better than ours if that makes sense IMO.
They're not a Barcelona/Bayern/Real Madrid in terms of quality.
Definitely. But in a different way. More as an attacking midfielder than a central midfielder, which is why I said we don't have a player of the level he could reach - because I don't see Pogba as a pure CM.
Why is it only option to not playing the 'first station' pass Jose is talking about? If I am a RB who is slightly advanced and at half way stage of my own half, I see a CM as passing option but know that he will be pressed so play a cross-field to LB to start the move down other flank which gives team time and space move high in opposition half, which forces their players back and then my CMs have space to play football in their half. Jose's point in the end is, don't pass it to a player who is very likely to be pressed and cause us problems. The 'get better at dealing with..' you are saying needs that kind of players and alternative to that is not just lumping up. Also, we need not do it against most teams and lumping it is a bit of weakness for City so nothing wrong in trying it more at all.
So really he has to be the front player of a pivot, with two behind to cover any gaps left? A No. 10 that is a midfielder, rather than Rooney being a withdrawn striker?
The first line of your own colleagues. It's what Pepe's sides thrive off. Notice how our passes were more diagonal and to the second line "station" in the second half
I'm no expert on Pogba but other than his own example at Juve, I'd use the reference points of Lampard under Mourinho and Di Maria under Ancelotti, on how I'd fit Pogba in.
It's not the only option. But after Mourinho's team talk at HT, it is what we resorted to, mostly. Ideally you'd avoid the one or two players being pressed the most, but in less ideal world where players have little time to react, lumping it forward is probably the easier thing to do than picking out the free man across the field.
Either way, hopefully we deal with it better against Klopp in a few weeks time.
The latter 2 players ARE fast and can threaten in wide areas.
It was just that both were horrendously off the pace today. Lingard looked like a nervous schoolboy, and Miki seemed 100% incapable of controlling the ball with someone behind him, at the same time all passes pinging off him.
He needs to be running onto the ball around the box or into the box? He goes forward and in a two leaves the other player wide open. For Juve he loved shooting from the edge of the box. If he is getting bogged down in midfield he can't do that.
While his comments are fine as the players need a bit of a kick up the arse and to know that the way we played in the first half is not acceptable, he ultimately lost us the game by starting Lingard and Miki.
That said, he'd be unwise to fully admit that.
That said, he'd be unwise to fully admit that.
You have to wonder how they failed to beat us last season really don't you. Perhaps those players were more adapted to the occasion then so you have to ask yourself why he didn't pick them for this game really.
Personally I thought Mkhytarian was just a complete waste of space today and should not have been started in such an important fixture as he obviously hasn't adapted to the level just yet. Pogba isn't a DM and between the two of them they left us completely stranded at times. You want Pogba José? Then play 4-3-3.
Personally I thought Mkhytarian was just a complete waste of space today and should not have been started in such an important fixture as he obviously hasn't adapted to the level just yet. Pogba isn't a DM and between the two of them they left us completely stranded at times. You want Pogba José? Then play 4-3-3.
its possible Jose planned this weeks ago for this game to be his first start and announce himself. Easing him in with the previous games
From reading the first page, since nobody really understands "First station ball" , maybe that's the problem, they have no idea what he's on about.
the players are still learning the philosophy
the players are still learning the philosophy
He's best in the role of a free spirit type B2B player, with a playmaker and a proper holding player surrounding him. At Juve he always had this set up. First with Pirlo and Vidal, later with Marchisio and Khedira.
Atm, you don't have any player in your squad to match these profiles(well, there's one candidate, but he's training with the reserves), so Pogba needs to step up and adapt.
Might be a good occasion for him to advance his development.
Just saw the conference. When he mentioned first station passes, he gave examples like "Baily to Fellaini" and "Blind to Pogba".
So he wants us to play hoofball?
Not just pass it long. Take a touch, look up, make a pass that they are not expecting. It could be a short one passed by the side of your foot to some player who is not being pressed as much or is in free space. First station would mean the first obvious pass that comes to your mind and hence the opposition can read it too. This is why Mourinho wanted and played players who can carry the ball (read Lingard, Mkhitaryan, Pogba and not Mata who looks for a quick pass). Sadly they made mistakes and hence his comments.
Also pass it long doesn't always mean hoofing ball in the penalty area. Two of the times we countered city in the second half after Blind and someone else hit a good diagonal ball, hence taking out all the city players putting on pressure. Long passes can be driven and grounded and not necessarily lumped up in the air. They are certainly more exciting than short tiki-taka passes.
We were extremely negative today and that too at a home game. I'm worried at our players lack of ability on the ball, surely they can play it around a bit nicely without constantly hoofing the ball? Or was that the tactic today? Which is even more worrying.
We weren't particularly negative. City just took ambushed us with a blitzkrieg during the first 40 minutes, which was made possible by our midfield being a bit off and the likes of Lingard and Mkhitaryan not having enough minutes to start this game. The last 50 minutes or so we did quite well and could've easily knocked in a few more.
No. I dont think there is a significant difference man to man (apart from couple of positions), But today they played well as a unit. Defensively and pressing.
Otherwise known as the 'Cleverley'
So could City. They created all the best chances in that game. We were just hoping for a lucky bounce in their box. On another day they'd have converted two or three of those 3 on 3 (sometimes 4 on 3) breaks.
First things first,
This was the wrong game to be giving players their first start. THE WRONG GAME! Jesse coming back from injury and Mikki still getting to grips with the new league.
Secondly,
Tight midfield. In Fergie's era, when faced with smarter and faster players, he would pack the midfield, adopting an almost 4-5-1 formation. We had the perfect players to choke the midfield in Herrera and Schneiderlin and even if you must, send in Carrick to sit in front of the back if you must just congest that midfield because the way Silva and Sterlin were able to move around unmolested was a massive cause for concern.
Finally,
The positive, Mou recognised his mistake almost instantly and made the appropriate changes. We went out swinging in the second half, but I hope now Mou took more from the game than Pep, he will now understand how certain players perform under the heat against smarter, faster opponents. The ugly, ugly fact remains, with Rooney being undroppable we will always be at a handicap for the no 10 role at the top level. We needed Rooney to do for us what Silva was doing for City, and it was not happening today and probably will not for the rest of the season.
This was the wrong game to be giving players their first start. THE WRONG GAME! Jesse coming back from injury and Mikki still getting to grips with the new league.
Secondly,
Tight midfield. In Fergie's era, when faced with smarter and faster players, he would pack the midfield, adopting an almost 4-5-1 formation. We had the perfect players to choke the midfield in Herrera and Schneiderlin and even if you must, send in Carrick to sit in front of the back if you must just congest that midfield because the way Silva and Sterlin were able to move around unmolested was a massive cause for concern.
Finally,
The positive, Mou recognised his mistake almost instantly and made the appropriate changes. We went out swinging in the second half, but I hope now Mou took more from the game than Pep, he will now understand how certain players perform under the heat against smarter, faster opponents. The ugly, ugly fact remains, with Rooney being undroppable we will always be at a handicap for the no 10 role at the top level. We needed Rooney to do for us what Silva was doing for City, and it was not happening today and probably will not for the rest of the season.
He did admit it by saying he's to be blamed at the end of the day as he picks the team.
Mourinho's suck a dick. Can't help throwing his own players under the bus to protect his own ego. It's the complete opposite of how Sir Alex was, or even how Mourinho was a decade ago. Madrid fecked him up.
Precisely. With the kind of form Aguero is in, he'd have taken us to the cleaners, given even a few of the chances they had in the second half.
A lot of our players didn't turn up in the first half, just the way it goes sometimes. A lot of tools on here are apparently better managers than Jose, they will retreat to their Playstations soon I guess.