Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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    194
  • Poll closed .
Red Defence said:
oThe UK will be fine. The EU won't be fine though. The Euro will collapse within a year or two and the EU will suffer with that. If they decide to play the sore loser game with the UK then they will suffer even more.

One thing I'm confused about though is why if the EU is such a wonderful "club" to be in would they be worried about other countries leaving? Why would other countries even want to leave?
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There's no denying that the EU will surely take a hit. The budget will be re-dimensioned to the new realities. However they do have an excuse why this is happening (ie Brexit) and the lack of financial passporting and the introduction of tariffs in the UK would probably bring new business to mainland Europe to compensate. What excuse will the Tories use if the UK economy go tits up?

As said I find it pretty hard to understand how a country can survive alongside a hostile continent who don't like you very much especially since at the other side of the Atlantic they are working like mad to set a trade deal with the EU.

I don't think that the EU actually see Brexit as a loss. Sure losing a prosperous country like the UK in difficult times isn't nice. There again you can't keep accommodating a country whose constantly objecting to everything for the sake of saying no. Hopefully those who remain in the EU does believe in the European project
 
Red Defence said:
oThe UK will be fine. The EU won't be fine though. The Euro will collapse within a year or two and the EU will suffer with that. If they decide to play the sore loser game with the UK then they will suffer even more.

One thing I'm confused about though is why if the EU is such a wonderful "club" to be in would they be worried about other countries leaving? Why would other countries even want to leave?
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You are truly deluded if you believe that to be the case. Whilst brexit is a bad thing for both the EU and UK, it's clearly far worse for the UK.
 
JPRouve said:
There is no particular fear of anyone leaving or any sort of fear of a collapse either. The EU lost nothing so the sore loser talk is silly too, the only problem is to find a deal that is balanced and give something to both parts, and from what I have read the british are unwilling to accept that and think that anything that isn't completely in their favor is a sanction from the EU.

Basically if you want to leave and have no special relationship it's fine, we will use the international tarrif rate, if you want at special relationship we will have to give you something and you will do the same. But what both parts will give depends on what both parts want.
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We have yet to see how the EU behave in all this, as well as the UK. You and I are obviously reading different accounts of events but as nothing has really been discussed yet (and won't be until we trigger Article 50) we haven't got very much to go on.
 
Red Defence said:
We have yet to see how the EU behave in all this, as well as the UK. You and I are obviously reading different accounts of events but as nothing has really been discussed yet (and won't be until we trigger Article 50) we haven't got very much to go on.
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The EU will send their negotiators and it's well known that they are a pain in the ass but that's the case for everyone. Now it's interesting to see that you don't know how the EU will behave but already talk about sore losers.
 
JPRouve said:
The EU will send their negotiators and it's well known that they are a pain in the ass but that's the case for everyone. Now it's interesting to see that you don't know how the EU will behave but already talk about sore losers.
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Don't underestimate Boris, Fox and that EU expert who didn't knew that you cant do deals with the individual EU countries
 
devilish said:
There's no denying that the EU will surely take a hit. The budget will be re-dimensioned to the new realities. However they do have an excuse why this is happening (ie Brexit) and the lack of financial passporting and the introduction of tariffs in the UK would probably bring new business to mainland Europe to compensate. What excuse will the Tories use if the UK economy go tits up?

As said I find it pretty hard to understand how a country can survive alongside a hostile continent who don't like you very much especially since at the other side of the Atlantic they are working like mad to set a trade deal with the EU.

I don't think that the EU actually see Brexit as a loss. Sure losing a prosperous country like the UK in difficult times isn't nice. There again you can't keep accommodating a country whose constantly objecting to everything for the sake of saying no. Hopefully those who remain in the EU does believe in the European project
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Yes, it's probably for the best that the UK has chosen to leave. Maybe other counties will leave too, who knows, but the ones who are left will be there because they want to be and not because they feel they ought to be. Can only be positive for the EU.
 
JPRouve said:
The EU will send their negotiators and it's well known that they are a pain in the ass but that's the case for everyone. Now it's interesting to see that you don't know how the EU will behave but already talk about sore losers.
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Yes, that's going off some of their comments in the press. They sound petulant to us but maybe their negotiators will be more mature and sensible.
 
Red Defence said:
Yes, that's going off some of their comments in the press. They sound petulant to us but maybe their negotiators will be more mature and sensible.
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Outside of the ones who have been likened to Nazis who have been petulant?
 
JPRouve said:
Outside of the ones who have been likened to Nazis who have been petulant?
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I believe its the ones who were stating the obvious (ie no freedom of movement no unrestricted access to the single market).
 
JPRouve said:
Who has been petulant?
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Renzi at times, but he's under quite lot of stress. Hollande is another one but I don't rate him much anyway and he's unlikely to be in power much longer. Juncker - would be better for both the Uk and the EU if he retired gracefully asap ("gracefully" is a euphemism, only because I'm on a public forum). There are also one or two others who have a tendency to think puffing out their chest and talking tough makes them sound more influential and important than they really are.
 
JPRouve said:
Even the countries member of Schengen have total control of their borders and control of the immigration, but adding more controls kind of defies the idea of Schengen which is to fluidify commerce between countries and movement of the working force.
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What reality do you live in, JP? The basic principle of Schengen is that individuals can move freely from any country within the zone to any other. What kind of border control is that?

Border control means that no one, regardless of where they're coming from, can simply walk, fly or swim into another country without checks. There's going to be problems on the border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland, of course.
 
Red Defence said:
Renzi at times, but he's under quite lot of stress. Hollande is another one but I don't rate him much anyway and he's unlikely to be in power much longer. Juncker - would be better for both the Uk and the EU if he retired gracefully asap ("gracefully" is a euphemism, only because I'm on a public forum). There are also one or two others who have a tendency to think puffing out their chest and talking tough makes them sound more influential and important than they really are.
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What did Hollande said?
 
Red Defence said:
Renzi at times, but he's under quite lot of stress. Hollande is another one but I don't rate him much anyway and he's unlikely to be in power much longer. Juncker - would be better for both the Uk and the EU if he retired gracefully asap ("gracefully" is a euphemism, only because I'm on a public forum). There are also one or two others who have a tendency to think puffing out their chest and talking tough makes them sound more influential and important than they really are.
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37502578

It will be "impossible" for Brexit talks to result in a deal that gives Britons more rights than others outside the EU.

He said the Brexit vote had been "a bad decision" but had to be respected.


Such arrogance
 
Will Absolute said:
What reality do you live in, JP? The basic principle of Schengen is that individuals can move freely from any country within the zone to any other. What kind of border control is that?

Border control means that no one, regardless of where they're coming from, can simply walk, fly or swim into another country without checks. There's going to be problems on the border between the Irish Republic and Northern Ireland, of course.
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No it only means that they have a right to stay the first 3 months on the territory and try to find a job or a school after that we can expel them, we can control them wherever we want, we can and we do have custom controls at certain borders and we can expel them if they spent 3 months without a job or a school.
 
As the Euro is due to collapse and the UK will become this superpower again I think all of us currently living in the rest of Europe should move to the UK while we still can. Could the UK cope with an extra 500 million immigrants in the next two or three years
 
devilish said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37502578

It will be "impossible" for Brexit talks to result in a deal that gives Britons more rights than others outside the EU.

He said the Brexit vote had been "a bad decision" but had to be respected.


Such arrogance
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There was a bit more than that. He's made a few comments over the last 3 months that won't have helped either side.
 
Red Defence said:
There was a bit more than that. He's made a few comments over the last 3 months that won't have helped either side.
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Hollande said that Brexit needs to be effective by 2019 and that the british vote is irreversible. Is that what you have in mind?
 
JPRouve said:
No it only means that they have a right to stay the first 3 months on the territory and try to find a job or a school after that we can expel them, we can control them wherever we want, we can and we do have custom controls at certain borders and we can expel them if they spent 3 months without a job or a school.
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So all the illegal immigrants who wandered in and moved up to Calais and the North of France.......does your statement apply to them.
 
Red Defence said:
So all the illegal immigrants who wandered in and moved up to Calais and the North of France.......does your statement apply to them.
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In Calais there is economical immigrants who are expellable and there is the ones who are protected by the Geneva convention and can't be expelled and have the right to seek asylum.
 
JPRouve said:
In Calais there is economical immigrants who are expellable and there is the ones who are protected by the Geneva convention and can't be expelled and have the right to seek asylum.
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So why haven't you expelled the economic ones and sorted out the ones who are seeking asylum? There seems to be a complete lack of control or responsibility in France to migrants.
 
Red Defence said:
So why haven't you expelled the economic ones and sorted out the ones who are seeking asylum? There seems to be a complete lack of control or responsibility in France to migrants.
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Simple, the people in Calais intended to seek asylum in the UK but they are not able to because they can't access your borders and can't access custom officers allowed to receive the said demand, so logically they refuse to seek asylum in any other country in the EU otherwise they are stuck in that country.
As for the economic immigrants they are expelled everyday when we manage to find their country, during the investigation they are often put in centers
 
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JPRouve said:
No it only means that they have a right to stay the first 3 months on the territory and try to find a job or a school after that we can expel them, we can control them wherever we want, we can and we do have custom controls at certain borders and we can expel them if they spent 3 months without a job or a school.
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Once inside Schengen they can travel anywhere within the zone across national borders. Who tracks them down and how do they find them?

The 'expulsion' idea is a fig leaf and an hypocrisy. Millions of people can't be tracked down and expelled.
 
Red Defence said:
You do realise that most of the economic migrants (estimated to be at least 50%) have no passport, so how did they get into France in the first place?
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It depends on where they are from, some had passeports but got rid of them that's mainly the ones coming from the eastern borders (these ones generally used papers in Turkey for example and therefore can be identified) and others came through the Libyan routes and are less likely to have passeports, in that case there are investigations.
 
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JPRouve said:
It depends on where they are from, some had passeports but got rid of them that's mainly the ones coming from the eastern borders (these ones generally used papers in Turkey for example and therefore can be identified) and others came through the Lybian routes and are less likely to have passeports, in that case there are investigations.
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But the 10.000 or so who live in the Calais jungle don't fit into the post below, nor do the unaccompanied minors living there, so why have they been let in?

JPRouve said:
No it only means that they have a right to stay the first 3 months on the territory and try to find a job or a school after that we can expel them, we can control them wherever we want, we can and we do have custom controls at certain borders and we can expel them if they spent 3 months without a job or a school.
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Will Absolute said:
Once inside Schengen they can travel anywhere within the zone across national borders. Who tracks them down and how do they find them?

The 'expulsion' idea is a fig leaf and an hypocrisy. Millions of people can't be tracked down and expelled.
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But that's a choice from us, we have the right to control everyone and let the EU citizens enter since it's their right but because borders are incredibly expensive we decided to just get rid of the ones that we share with EU countries. With the current crisis it's problematic because a lot of the migrants end up in France but at the same time they are less expensive than borders. And if for example, we decide to actually control all the trucks entering the territory, it's going to be a huge problem.
 
Red Defence said:
But the 10.000 or so who live in the Calais jungle don't fit into the post below, nor do the unaccompanied minors living there, so why have they been let in?
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That post is about EU citizens, the citizens the UK are complaining about.

The other ones are not allowed to enter your borders or ours for what it worth but we have a huge problem with eastern Europe countries who are letting them in because they don't want to finance their outer borders, it's something that we need to fix but since every EU country wants to have full control of it's own borders the EU can't even create an actual custom office who could control those damn borders.

Basically we have a custom and border control problem, the 27 countries want control of their borders but they also want freedom of movement between the inside borders. In my opinion you can't have both, we either all control our borders (which is currently possible but expensive) or we all control the outer borders of the entire zone in that case no syrian will be able to enter from Turkey without being checked for the entire zone and deemed asylum worthy or not, at the moment the greeks decide for everyone but aren't the ones taking care of them.
 
The immigration issue is a humanitarian issue of epic proportions. The EU who believe in solidarity, can't abandon the countries at its external borders to receive and keep an unlimited amount of immigrants year in year out just to keep a bunch of xenophobic countries happy and safe and will certainly not allow immigrants to drown at sea

Regarding borders it works both way. If the UK raise borders with the EU then probably the EU will raise borders with the UK. The Brits living in Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will be less impressed. There's also rumours of a revision in the Le Touquet deal + the Dublin 2 regulation (ie which state that the country whose at the external border must keep all the immigrants) is an EU regulation. What happens if the UK leaves the EU? Will that regulation still apply?
 
devilish said:
The immigration issue is a humanitarian issue of epic proportions. The EU who believe in solidarity, can't abandon the countries at its external borders to receive and keep an unlimited amount of immigrants year in year out just to keep a bunch of xenophobic countries happy and safe and will certainly not allow immigrants to drown at sea

Regarding borders it works both way. If the UK raise borders with the EU then probably the EU will raise borders with the UK. The Brits living in Northern Ireland and Gibraltar will be less impressed. There's also rumours of a revision in the Le Touquet deal + the Dublin 2 regulation (ie which state that the country whose at the external border must keep all the immigrants) is an EU regulation. What happens if the UK leaves the EU? Will that regulation still apply?
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The problem also goes the other way, though. The EU follows the principle of free movement and I think it's completely fair for a nation to be concerned if they don't want to see increasing immigration year on year, when the EU's free movement would potentially result in them not being able to prevent it.

I think the problems of immigration (especially in the UK) have been overstated massively, but the idea of wanting to have balanced immigration where your net figures are fairly even seems like a sensible one on a basic level. If you're in the EU and surrounding countries are bringing in extremely high numbers of refugees (ie Germany), and you have concerns about how they'll integrate into your country, then it's fair to be concerned.
 
Cheesy said:
The problem also goes the other way, though. The EU follows the principle of free movement and I think it's completely fair for a nation to be concerned if they don't want to see increasing immigration year on year, when the EU's free movement would potentially result in them not being able to prevent it.

I think the problems of immigration (especially in the UK) have been overstated massively, but the idea of wanting to have balanced immigration where your net figures are fairly even seems like a sensible one on a basic level. If you're in the EU and surrounding countries are bringing in extremely high numbers of refugees (ie Germany), and you have concerns about how they'll integrate into your country, then it's fair to be concerned.
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You are talking about increasing immigration of EU citizens, right?
 
JPRouve said:
You are talking about increasing immigration of EU citizens, right?
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Really a mixture. Naturally EU citizens will move all over the place, and now we've got the added pressures that come with the refugee crises. Of course, it's only right that Europe aims to help those in need and does what it can...but I don't think it's xenophobic for a nation to either worry that their nation does not have the resources to take in an extreme upsurge in citizens, or for a nation to be concerned that those who enter their country will be unable to integrate.

Again, I'm pro-immigration myself and I think parties like UKIP have shamelessly exaggerated the strains of immigration for their own gain, but I don't think it's xenophobic at all to be concerned at continuing large numbers to be coming into your country. If the EU intends to continue on the principle of free movement then each country should be aware of the pros/cons that come with changing immigration, because such policies won't just be limited to their own nation.
 
Cheesy said:
Really a mixture. Naturally EU citizens will move all over the place, and now we've got the added pressures that come with the refugee crises. Of course, it's only right that Europe aims to help those in need and does what it can...but I don't think it's xenophobic for a nation to either worry that their nation does not have the resources to take in an extreme upsurge in citizens, or for a nation to be concerned that those who enter their country will be unable to integrate.

Again, I'm pro-immigration myself and I think parties like UKIP have shamelessly exaggerated the strains of immigration for their own gain, but I don't think it's xenophobic at all to be concerned at continuing large numbers to be coming into your country. If the EU intends to continue on the principle of free movement then each country should be aware of the pros/cons that come with changing immigration, because such policies won't just be limited to their own nation.
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But the UK aren't concerned by the other immigrants, they are not included in the free movement since they are not citizens, it's not even that they aren't EU nationals they aren't EU citizens which means that the UK don't even have to give them the agreed 3 months.
So the extrem upsurge in citizens is a myth unless you believe that EU citizens are going to massively move to the UK for whatever reason that didn't existed in the recent past.


That's where I'm confused in that entire debate.
 
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