Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Member 5225 said:
Born British and I'd much rather a nation has the ability to project and thereby flex rather than stumble into situations (numbers).
Plus quality > quantity IMO
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Well, you are also born in the EU, so you are also a European citizen. Where is the difference to your British citizenship? Why is one a problem and the other not?

I have no problem with people, who want different (e.g. more restrictive) immigration policies. I don’t think that this is racist, even so I fancy less restrictions. If all you care about is that less Polish /eastern-European people working in the UK, voting for Brexit is reasonable.

It is just the lack of knowledge that surprises me. Most of the people talking about wanting a system similar to Canada or Australia clearly have to clue about the goals and the performance of migration policies in these countries. There are even aspects of immigration policy where Canada adapted ideas of the British model.

Once you start talking about democracy/ sovereignty, it really gets weird. It all boils down to a feeling. Only very few aspects of your life are actually decided in Brussel and you struggle to name any that you don’t like except “European migration”.
 
PedroMendez said:
Well, you are also born in the EU, so you are also a European citizen. Where is the difference to your British citizenship? Why is one a problem and the other not?

I have no problem with people, who want different (e.g. more restrictive) immigration policies. I don’t think that this is racist, even so I fancy less restrictions. If all you care about is that less Polish /eastern-European people working in the UK, voting for Brexit is reasonable.

It is just the lack of knowledge that surprises me. Most of the people talking about wanting a system similar to Canada or Australia clearly have to clue about the goals and the performance of migration policies in these countries. There are even aspects of immigration policy where Canada adapted ideas of the British model.

Once you start talking about democracy/ sovereignty, it really gets weird. It all boils down to a feeling. Only very few aspects of your life are actually decided in Brussel and you struggle to name any that you don’t like except “European migration”.
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Stop forcing me to be European (I say it in a cheeky way, but it's my point).
 
Mihajlovic said:
Absolutely. I think the point about "the people have voted and we must respect their will" needs to be challenged every time it's been brought up. Fact is that just about half of the electorate DID NOT vote for leave, so how is the government ensuring that it speaks for them too?
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It is precisely this type of sentiment which would cause me to give David Davis the benefit of the doubt. Attempts to undermine or stall negotiations, and undermine the will of the electorate, should be fought most strenuously. The pillars of Brexit are well enough known, and unveiling the minutiae of our negotiating strategy before talks have begun seems sensible enough.

Where were these MPs with their desire for scrutiny and respect for their constituents, when the Lisbon Treaty was merrily given the green light?
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
It is precisely this type of sentiment which would cause me to give David Davis the benefit of the doubt. Attempts to undermine or stall negotiations, and undermine the will of the electorate, should be fought most strenuously. The pillars of Brexit are well enough known, and unveiling the minutiae of our negotiating strategy before talks have begun seems sensible enough.

Where were these MPs with their desire for scrutiny and respect for their constituents, when the Lisbon Treaty was merrily given the green light?
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It's not undermining the electorate to point out that the government are using the vote as a mandate to enforce their own changes on us, especially when that may include leaving the single market when it could be very troubling economically to do so.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Attempts to undermine or stall negotiations, and undermine the will of the electorate, should be fought most strenuously. The pillars of Brexit are well enough known, and unveiling the minutiae of our negotiating strategy before talks have begun seems sensible enough.

Where were these MPs with their desire for scrutiny and respect for their constituents, when the Lisbon Treaty was merrily given the green light?
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There are many ways to Brexit and May is taking a hardline stance, which probably is the worst for Britain economically. Whilst the premise of the exit cannot be ignored the ways and means to do so can certainly be debated.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
There are many ways to Brexit and May is taking a hardline stance, which probably is the worst for Britain economically. Whilst the premise of the exit cannot be ignored the ways and means to do so can certainly be debated.
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Or a solid starting negotiating position.....
 
PedroMendez said:
It is just the lack of knowledge that surprises me. Most of the people talking about wanting a system similar to Canada or Australia clearly have to clue about the goals and the performance of migration policies in these countries. There are even aspects of immigration policy where Canada adapted ideas of the British model.

Once you start talking about democracy/ sovereignty, it really gets weird. It all boils down to a feeling. Only very few aspects of your life are actually decided in Brussel and you struggle to name any that you don’t like except “European migration”.
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I don't fault that at all. Not everyone can understand the macroeconomic implications. It would essentially boil down to "How will my life change?" and kinda extrapolate a bit from that point before they decide. The biggest mistake was was not voting exit but rather holding the referendum with dumbed up choices.
 
Cheesy said:
It's not undermining the electorate to point out that the government are using the vote as a mandate to enforce their own changes on us, especially when that may include leaving the single market when it could be very troubling economically to do so.
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Opinion polls in Britain both before and after the referendum show that voters prioritized sovereignty over access to the single market. When the direct question is put to the electorate in such polls they favour restoration of full national sovereignty/control of immigration over economic considerations.

The idea that they voted for some kind of 'soft Brexit' doesn't accord with the facts.
 
Cheesy said:
It's not undermining the electorate to point out that the government are using the vote as a mandate to enforce their own changes on us, especially when that may include leaving the single market when it could be very troubling economically to do so.
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
There are many ways to Brexit and May is taking a hardline stance, which probably is the worst for Britain economically. Whilst the premise of the exit cannot be ignored the ways and means to do so can certainly be debated.
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We simply don't know what form negotiations will take at this point, but it only serves to strengthen our position if people believe that we are comfortable with what is known as a hard Brexit. What we don't know is to what degree the EU will be flexible on policy, or what bespoke arrangements they are prepared to make for us.

I thin k it is fairly clear, that full FoM will be a red line for the UK. Similarly, things like the CFP and ECJ.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I don't fault that at all. Not everyone can understand the macroeconomic implications. It would essentially boil down to "How will my life change?" and kinda extrapolate a bit from that point before they decide. The biggest mistake was was not voting exit but rather holding the referendum with dumbed up choices.
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Wow:
1. People are too stupid to understand
2. Can't believe a democratic direct question was asked

Is that genuinely what you are saying? If so, pls don't wonder why people feel/felt alienated.
 
Member 5225 said:
Wow:
1. People are too stupid to understand
2. Can't believe a democratic direct question was asked

Is that genuinely what you are saying? If so, pls don't wonder why people feel/felt alienated.
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Why? Are you claiming everyone you know is an economics expert?

1. People have been misled or even lied to by the campaigners....who immediately backtracked on immigration and NHS hours after the vote results.
2. People in towns who have the get the most benefit from EU currently have voted exit. There were numerous articles which did bring to light on common voters not understanding the full implications.
3. Numerous have voted Exit as a protest vote which has nothing to do with Brexit per se.

I work in Financial Sector and closely with both UK and EU and do attend regular calls/seminar from leading economists to understand this better. Not everyone has access to those and those are the ones who voted (not saying this is a fault, just pointing out a reality check).

It's obvious that not everybody can be a expert in everything, so the comment on 'stupid' is just nonsense. It's the way the referendum was organized that galls me more than the results.
 
Will Absolute said:
Opinion polls in Britain both before and after the referendum show that voters prioritized sovereignty over access to the single market. When the direct question is put to the electorate in such polls they favour restoration of full national sovereignty/control of immigration over economic considerations.

The idea that they voted for some kind of 'soft Brexit' doesn't accord with the facts.
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Yes, when it's a choice between soft Brexit and hard Brexit. That, though, ignores the fact that nearly half of the population voted Remain. On both a hard Brexit and soft Brexit, there's no guarantee that the population would have voted for said option had they been on the ballot paper, as opposed to just a general exit. The fact that the government are taking a general exit as a mandate to opt for a specific type of exit is worth extended scrutiny, I'd say.

Not to mention that, on the whole, the government have a duty to what they feel is best for the nation. It seems quite clear that there's potential for economic struggle if we leave the single market and this really, really shouldn't be ignored.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
We simply don't know what form negotiations will take at this point, but it only serves to strengthen our position if people believe that we are comfortable with what is known as a hard Brexit. What we don't know is to what degree the EU will be flexible on policy, or what bespoke arrangements they are prepared to make for us.

I thin k it is fairly clear, that full FoM will be a red line for the UK. Similarly, things like the CFP and ECJ.
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How would you make people comfortable over a decision that's probably the worst for Britain? By making that speech, May probably closed more doors for negotiation that may have been open otherwise.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Why? Are you claiming everyone you know is an economics expert?

1. People have been misled or even lied to by the campaigners....who immediately backtracked on immigration and NHS hours after the vote results.
2. People in towns who have the get the most benefit from EU currently have voted exit. There were numerous articles which did bring to light on common voters not understanding the full implications.
3. Numerous have voted Exit as a protest vote which has nothing to do with Brexit per se.

I work in Financial Sector and closely with both UK and EU and do attend regular calls/seminar from leading economists to understand this better. Not everyone has access to those and those are the ones who voted (not saying this is a fault, just pointing out a reality check).

It's obvious that not everybody can be a expert in everything, so the comment on 'stupid' is just nonsense. It's the way the referendum was organized that galls me more than the results.
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The other side could quite easily the same about the opppsite side, is my point.
 
Member 5225 said:
Stop forcing me to be European (I say it in a cheeky way, but it's my point).
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I don't force you to be anything. Your identity can only be decided by yourself and I’ll accept how you see yourself. You have a European passport, but that doesn’t mean that you have a European identity. Just like having a British passport doesn’t mean that you have to have a British identity. Identity doesn’t have to be decided by anyone’s place of birth.
 


Mental front pages. The Express one in particular carries some pretty bad connotations in my opinion.
 
Member 5225 said:
That is shit, this is shit.
People are dumb.
This is the right point of view and the other is clearly stupid cos I say so....

And that sort of rhetoric.
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Its too simplistic to say people are dumb but to say people were massively misinformed and misled is valid.

This is the right point of view and the other is clearly stupid cos I say so....

And that's pretty much true of all politicians, not exclusive to Trump so that's a weak connection. Quite ironic to link Remainers to Trump as well when you're on Farage's team.
 
LuisNaniencia said:
Its too simplistic to say people are dumb but to say people were massively misinformed and misled is valid.

This is the right point of view and the other is clearly stupid cos I say so....

And that's pretty much true of all politicians, not exclusive to Trump so that's a weak connection. Quite ironic to link Remainers to Trump as well when you're on Farage's team.
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Rrrright - so do I condone err I dunno, drinking in a pub at lunch like he does as well? Let's not loosely attribute things together for the sake of shock effect please ;)
 
When people say Brexiters voted out cause of immigration, they go apeshit.
So why is the government making stopping/controlling immigration the be all and end all of Brexit?
 
Adisa said:
When people say Brexiters voted out cause of immigration, they go apeshit.
So why is the government making stopping/controlling immigration the be all and end all of Brexit?
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Have they done so?

Immigration was a part of the argument yes, but not the sole or overriding purpose of voting to leave. And given the derogatory terms used to describe Brexiteers, usually without any basis whatsoever, a little umbrage is understandable.
 
Nick 0208 Ldn said:
Have they done so?

Immigration was a part of the argument yes, but not the sole or overriding purpose of voting to leave. And given the derogatory terms used to describe Brexiteers, usually without any basis whatsoever, a little umbrage is understandable.
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Tedious question I know but can you list the 3 or 4 main reasons behind the leave?

I have:
- Immigration.
- The EU not being democratic.
- Retake sovereignty (in general).
- Not obey EU rules, laws.

Is that correct?
 
JPRouve said:
Tedious question I know but can you list the 3 or 4 main reasons behind the leave?

I have:
- Immigration.
- The EU not being democratic.
- Retake sovereignty (in general).
- Not obey EU rules, laws.

Is that correct?
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Your last two are essentially the same thing.

The idea that the vote wasn't won on immigration is ludicrous though. Farage and Hannan haven't spoken for years as Hannan was disappointed that Farage used the immigration angle to popularise their movement.
 
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