When was the last time you have been to Russia? Do you speak the language? Do you know the opinion of people living there? Believe or not, they hate US and they do not want any sort of freedom that was brought by US to Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria. Of course there are people who are unhappy, but believe or not the pro-Putin party will win the elections, and they will win it democratically. Before throwing stones at Russia, US need to sort out the so-called democracy in their own house. Guantanamo, CIA prisons in Europe. Snowden may help too.
Are Russia preparing for WW3?
- Thread starter MoBeats
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Wow. Gorbatchev and Yeltsin are not popular in Russia at all. Let the Russians decide who they want.
Yeltsin was an economic disaster for Russia. He tried to introduce neoliberal policies and it failed spectacularly. Russia was still a peasant economy and the modernization just didn't work. It ended up with mass poverty and genuine starvation.
It's not relevant comparing how many of its own citizens Russia has killed? Have you not researched how Putin came into power in the first place?
Still Syria at those times was in a better condition than it is now.
I have lived in Russia for years, Russian is my native language, I was born in USSR. Now, please tell me how Putin came into power?
No doubt but the reasons for its disintegration as a state are very different from what happened in Iraq - the US role is just one (rather small IMO) factor among many.
By the way when was the last time you were in Syria? Do you speak Arabic?
Absolutely true. Lived and witnessed this. The standards of living during Yeltsin's times were awful. Those "grey 90s" - (лихие девяностые in Russian) were truly catastrophic.
Ana lastu fil istito'i an atakallam bil lugal arabiyya bi suhula. However, I have been to Syria in 2008 and I enjoyed it at the time. Not sure if I am even allowed to fly there nowadays. By the way, I have talked to the Syrian refugees in Istanbul recently. They felt miserable.
The reason I ask is that we have a Syrian member here @syrian_scholes - since you're claiming some special insight for natives (I wouldn't argue with that by the way), would you concede his point if he disagreed with you on Russia's role in Syria and the idea of Bashar as the legitimate president, etc.?
I wasn't talking about their popularity. My point was that they did try to break off from the USSR, while Putin does whatever he can to restore the "old glorious USSR".
The issue which has absolutely nothing whatsoever with the issue.
I don't think this is true, though. Russia is a market economy these days, not a soviet styled socialist bureaucracy. There's plenty of corruption, but it isn't similar to the USSR in terms of economics. The only valid comparison might be one of renewed Russian power on the world stage, but that in itself is directly caused by increased Russian wealth.
Look, Putin does not want to restore old glorious USSR. He wants allies around the Russian borders. It is impossible to recreate former USSR for various reasons. Heck, its even impossible to create anything distantly similar to EU consisting of former USSR states. The so called "customs union" consisting of Kazakhstan, Russia and Belarus is still far from being fully functional.
They hate the US while they dream of living in America. How are they enjoying their quality of life over there compared to the American quality of life? What about individual freedom?
The Russians always needed a Tzar, a dictator to follow. And it's embedded in the mentality.
Russians who hate the US do it either out of ignorance or out of pure jealousy.
You will have to be banned for claiming that the Russians need a dictator to follow and it is embedded in their mentality. The discussion with you is over, enjoy your day.
You claimed they hate the US, I just pointed out where that hate is coming from. Good day to you too.
@fcbforever
I can find this but it appears to be far from conclusive. In fact it says they couldn't access the area and spoke to residents, and that's what they based their findings on.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=54795#.WADjnvB4WEc
There's reports from this year but they've been debunked too.
Can't find anywhere where the UN have reported that Russia bombed their aid convoy.
I can find this but it appears to be far from conclusive. In fact it says they couldn't access the area and spoke to residents, and that's what they based their findings on.
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=54795#.WADjnvB4WEc
There's reports from this year but they've been debunked too.
Can't find anywhere where the UN have reported that Russia bombed their aid convoy.
BBC mentioned this yesterday in their headline.
It's not nearly a close to a million dead, but keep spouting that fact. Are you combining every single conflict in the world since 2001?
The Russian federation is the direct continuation of the Russian republic, all gouvernment agencies are still the same and almost all gouvernment officials started their careers in their USSR. Like Putin himself.
As I've said, there has been nearly no change between the gouvernmental apparatus of the USSR and todays Russia. Same for the military.
Assad was the one deciding to kill his own population, let's not start ignoring that. He was the one ignoring basic rules of gouvernment. In Syria, we are looking at 700 civilian casualties since the beginning of the US led intervention. Do you REALLY want to suggest that is even close to Assads numbers? He would probably call it a good day in Aleppo.
I never said anybody from Crimea flooded Ukraine, I talked about thousands of refugees meandering through eastern Ukraine after having lost their home to Russian destabilization. Of course the standard of living is higher in Crimea now, as Russia is actively destroying gouvernmental structures while pumping billions in the money sink that is Crimea.
If you accept that explanation for Chechenya, you probably have to accept Afghanistan and Iraq as well. Afghanistan was probably one of the small sample size of wars done by the rules of UN laws anyways. Spouting some propaganda nonsense doesn't really help your case btw.
I know they want Putin, never doubted that. And they are free to want a Dictator keeping his country in isolation and in the state of a 3rd world country while wasting billions of oil money, if they want.
The problem seems to be that a lot of countries are not really keen on allying with him, so he has to try other destabilizing measures to reach his goals.
Weren't you the one claiming democracy doesn't always work? Although I have to disagree with you for various theoretical reasons that would lead to far (mainly regarding the economical circumstances needed for democracy to succeed), Russia really is a classic point in case for this theory. Large margins of the Russian population lack basic understandings of fundamental instruments of democracy. The reason for them to vote for Putin really seems to be they prefer a "strong" leader". That's what it comes down too, because by any other measure, there's not a lot he's done.
Whoa boom!!
He will? Maybe he will be, but heck in CE people always make broad statements about the citizens of another countries and they don't get banned.
I'm sorry I'm not here 24/7, but the UN already concluded it was an airstrike. They are currently running a committee to determine those responsible and this isn't finished, but if it is indeed an airstrike which happened, the Russian armed Syrian airforce is the only viable perpetrator. Luckily for the Russians, inquiries of such kind take so long the story will be forgotten when the results are published. Just like the civilian plane shot down with Russian surface to air missiles provided to "freedom fighters" in Ukraine.
As for the chemical weapons, evidence is numerous and wasn't even denied by Assad. That's easy to find.
Edit: literally 2 minutes on the cellphone.
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/2...inst-civilians-report-says.html?_r=0&referer=
If you prefer papers directly published by the UN, just google Ghoutra Sarin Gas Attacks...
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Seven hundred civilians in Syria? Sure.
Russians are now sinking money in Crimea? Well they are building something there for their citizens.
Accept Afghanistan and Iraq because I accept Chechnya? No way.
Chechnya: Part of the Russian Federation, used to harbour terrorists, was going to create an Islamic state of Chechnya. Now it is still part of Russia, no more war, very few terrorist acts, Grozniy has been rebuilt and people are enjoying their lives.
Afghanistan and Iraq: were not part of US, were bombed, WMDs not found, are left in ruins, the life became much worse.
Disgraceful. Have a word with yourself.
Russian people will vote for Putin, he may be a dictator for you, for the Russians he is not, and that is what matters. Just like the Russians believe that the Bush is a war criminal who cost millions of innocent lives and allowed depleted uranium to be used, whereas you consider him to be a decent person who led a fair war. You are free to do that.
700 hundred so far, according to independent sources, as civilian casualties to US and allied airstrikes.
Building for their citizens? Sure, so they don't realise their economy is fecked. Still a money sink.
And while your double standards are funny, I harbour a doubt you are even informed about the reasons and background of the Afghan invasion.
Democracy that you are trying to build in Irag and Afghanistan is not working. Nobody in Russia believes that the government is perfect, nor do they believe that the US is a symbol of democracy, Switzerland probably is but not US. So do not confuse US for democracy.
This is a standard Putin talking point. Also commonly used by Kim Jong Un. You can see where this is going.
They do realize that the rouble is in trouble because of low oil prices, but the economy is much more stable compared to Gorbatchew and Yeltsin times. They will get over this. Crimea will continue to be a peaceful place, as it is now. Surely, much better than Afghanistan and Iraq? How about the external debt of the US?
Double standards are used by you, while you approve bombing cities with depleted uranium and invading foreign countries, though calling for Putins head who is protecting is country's interest in Syria and managed to destroy the idea of a terrorist state inside of the Russian Federation.
USSR invaded Afghanistan and pulled out. After that everybody admitted it was a mistake, ask Russians now as well as Putin and they would tell you it was a mistake. Taliban came to life after the USSR pulled out, right? Who were they funded by? Now, tell me how good Afghan life is nowadays, compared to Crimea and Chechnya?
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Syria death toll: UN envoy estimates 400,000 killed.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...0-killed-syria-civil-war-160423055735629.html
Iraq war claimed half a million lives, study finds.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...r-civiliandeathtoll500knewstudyestimates.html
Ok mate, fair enough. I've become more interested in all this Bollocks than I want to be to be honest.
This is cliche. Russia will never be a North Korea. Again, for me US is not a symbol of democracy, especially when it comes to foreign policy (besides invasions abroad, guantanamo, CIA prisons in Europe and Edward Snowden show that US is far from being a truly democratic state). When it comes to democracy Switzerland is a fine example.
He may be popular but most Russians see him through the prism of state TV. If Putin was subject to the same level of scrutiny as a Western politician, I cannot believe he would be as popular. Yes, he may have stabilised the ship in his first few years and then rode the oil price boom but the overall picture is a squandered opportunity followed by dead-end isolationism. Even putting aside issues that might be dismissed as hypocritical Western values, he has failed in his stated mission to modernise the country and raise its GDP capita to European levels. In fact with oil now having a much lower floor due to US fracking and the depletion of the cheaper West Sib oilfields, things are unlikely to get better over the next few years. After 16 years, my verdict unfortunately is that he's a failed Pinochet with a Mobutu-like appetite for corruption.
What's is he saying? I can't find the post? Just to make it clear Russia is NOT fighting ISIS, they are attacking all rebel groups and rarely attack ISIS, now Turkey is fighting ISIS unlike the claims that they are fighting kurds proven by the fact that they are only gaining ground on isis territory, also no Bashar would not win an election now.
In the interim I'm sure it will have to make due with being an authoritarian dictatorship with an economy half the size of California, with a dictator who enriches himself and his friends off of oil money. Sounds like a wonderful place.
This is a proper argument.
Putin has stabilized the ship, agreed.
Failed to modernize the economy, debatable. Could have done better? Yes. Should have done? Yes.
Things are unlikely to get better due to oil prices, yes. However, I do not see any country who is likely to prosper. China will slow down, UK will, EU will. US external debt will not decrease.
Putin is no angel when it comes to foreign policy either, however, the US foreign policy has been much more worse and cruel imo.
Thank you @MoskvaRed for a proper debate.
If you @Raoul want to talk about the economy, lets create a separate thread. US economy is huge, but the external debt is also huge.In the interim I'm sure it will have to make due with being an authoritarian dictatorship with an economy half the size of California, with a dictator who enriches himself and his friends off of oil money. Sounds like a wonderful place.
Guess, we are done with foreign policy.
Absolute nonsense. The Turks sat back and watched ISIS make gains over the border, and even let the feckers cross to resupply. Amazing how they intervened just as the Kurds were about to make serious gains in the North. Just like now in Iraq they're desperate to get involved in the battle of Mosul just as the Peshmerga are closing in.