Mauricio Pochettino: Win or Bust?

[ObelOitment Fungentula]

...

Oh, a quote from Pogbas's agent saying Pogba said his heart was at Utd! Tell me was this before or after the deal to Utd was done? And to think people here mock new Liverpool players when they give it the usual spiel about how great the club is at their first press conference...

Perhaps you could also find me a quote (and not from Pogba's agent) saying that any of these other clubs were prepared to match or better Utd's fee and wages for Pogba, but that Pogba turned them down for Utd.

Thing is, you know exactly what I'm saying, but are being obstinate, but for what reason? Is it really so hard to acknowledge Pogba went to you for the money - money that no other interested club thought he was worth?

 

[GlastonSpur]

It's funny with Poch, I really rate him and think he's going to be a very good manager. However, given the supposed quality of his squad why isn't there more pressure on him to win the league? There's so much talk of potential regarding the Spurs squad, but Kane is already good enough to lead the line and win the league, Alli seems good enough, Eriksen is probably as good as he's going to be. Dier and Wanyama/Dembele are all technically average but fit into the way Poch wants to play perfectly.
I don't rate his fullbacks at all but nobody in the league bar Arsenal seems to have decent ones. Their centre backs are arguably the best in the league and they have a great keeper. To me that squad should be competing for the title and even winning it, if Poch finishes outside the top 2 with all the hype and praise he gets then he's failed this season for me.

Because there are five other clubs with significantly larger incomes currently, two of them sugar-daddy funded, and at least three of them have vastly outspent Spurs for many years past and continuing today. Moreover, none of them are currently having to divert funds into stadium construction (except Liverpool re. upgrade of a stand).

If you look at comparative net transfer spend for the last 5 years - and spend on wages - it would be a massive coup for Pochettino to win the league given this huge financial disparity ... and ridiculous to place any big pressures on him to do so.

 

[roonster09]

Oh, a quote from Pogbas's agent saying Pogba said his heart was at Utd! Tell me was this before or after the deal to Utd was done? And to think people here mock new Liverpool players when they give it the usual spiel about how great the club is at their first press conference...

Perhaps you could also find me a quote (and not from Pogba's agent) saying that any of these other clubs were prepared to match or better Utd's fee and wages for Pogba, but that Pogba turned them down for Utd.

Thing is, you know exactly what I'm saying, but are being obstinate, but for what reason? Is it really so hard to acknowledge Pogba went to you for the money - money that no other interested club thought he was worth?

Once the player is interested in moving to 1 club then no point in bidding for him. One of the reason why no club tried to bid for Ronaldo, Suarez.

Not sure what you want to prove. Club that signs players are always the player who make the highest bid or offer the bigger wages (as no one knows what the other clubs offered).

Btw I would rather hear from the person who was involved in the deal than some unknown person on Redcafe who posts on 'his assumptions'.

Edit: Btw no agent or player is going to talk about the money offered by any club. You are living in some dream world if you are expecting.

 

[ObelOitment Fungentula]

Once the player is interested in moving to 1 club then no point in bidding for him. One of the reason why no club tried to bid for Ronaldo, Suarez.

Not sure what you want to prove. Club that signs players are always the player who make the highest bid or offer the bigger wages (as no one knows what the other clubs offered).

Btw I would rather hear from the person who was involved in the deal than some unknown person on Redcafe who posts on 'his assumptions'.

Edit: Btw no agent or player is going to talk about the money offered by any club. You are living in some dream world if you are expecting.

I'm not trying to prove anything, just taking issue with the implication that Pogba decided on United because his heart was there rather than the wages - and you posting a quote from Pogba's agent following the move stating otherwise doesn't wholly convince me, to be honest.

And I've no idea what you're referring to with the edited part.

Anyway, as I said before, this is a Poch/Spurs thread and I don't like derailing threads so you can continue to believe what you want, just don't expect me to accept it based on what Mino fecking Raiola says!

 

[Dec9003]

Because there are five other clubs with significantly larger incomes currently, two of them sugar-daddy funded, and at least three of them have vastly outspent Spurs for many years past and continuing today. Moreover, none of them are currently having to divert funds into stadium construction (except Liverpool re. upgrade of a stand).

If you look at comparative net transfer spend for the last 5 years - and spend on wages - it would be a massive coup for Pochettino to win the league given this huge financial disparity ... and ridiculous to place any big pressures on him to do so.

So what? Are you saying those five clubs have better squads than Spurs? This is the thing I don't get. You have supposedly the best manager and players, yet you're not expected to win anything. You can't have it both ways.

 

[ObelOitment Fungentula]

So what? Are you saying those five clubs have better squads than Spurs? This is the thing I don't get. You have supposedly the best manager and players, yet you're not expected to win anything. You can't have it both ways.

I think he makes a fair point. It might not be a massive coup (Leicester rewrote the definition last year) but Spurs have been punching above their weight for a while now, and it would be an achievement for them to outdo clubs with much bigger resources and (in most cases) ability to attract top players/managers.

 

[padr81]

So what? Are you saying those five clubs have better squads than Spurs? This is the thing I don't get. You have supposedly the best manager and players, yet you're not expected to win anything. You can't have it both ways.

This I agree with Spurs need silverware soon, or they are at risk of their best players moving on. They have the manager, they have the players (at least imho) everything is in place. Maybe I overrate them a touch but I think they can't have it both ways for too long. I think Spurs fans are kind of overly cautious about them. They should be winning something in the next couple of years, whether its the prem or not they need something given everything they have in place. Its almost 10 years since they won a trophy and they have the side in place. Of course with so many good teams its not going to be easy but this side not winning something over the next couple of years will be a missed opportunity.

 

[GlastonSpur]

So what? Are you saying those five clubs have better squads than Spurs? This is the thing I don't get. You have supposedly the best manager and players, yet you're not expected to win anything. You can't have it both ways.

The "so what" is obvious: the pressure on those managers whose clubs have spent far, far more than Spurs - on both transfer fees and wages - is greater than it is on Pochettino.

And no, I'm not saying that all those 5 clubs have better squads than Spurs - the fact that that several of them don't is testament to their bungling given available financial resources.

Nor I am saying - nor have ever said - that Spurs have the best players: we have some of the best players, or at least some players who are as good as their counterparts. Nor am I saying that Spurs are not expected to win anything, just that the pressure on Pochettino is less than on his counterparts in the other 5 wealthier clubs

 

[SirHenryPercy]

After a promising start you've resorted to usual wummery. Blind as ''bang average'', he's better than Rose, and by a long shot too. The only good one of yours is Ali, even Eriksen is a uninspiring midfielder.
Utd are the ''sum of our parts'', despite having a new manager and blah, blah, blah. We won't improve? Of course we will, we will sweep right past the mighty Spurs, winner of nothing, and losers of everything.

Blind is better than Rose by a long shot, do you seriously believe that?

And Alli is our only good one, in which case Poch is just an absolute genius to have such an average group of players competing?

And as for 'the sum of their parts' that is what I said Utd currently are, not that they won't improve or even improve and surge on, did I? Or are you saying that this Utd team are currently greater than what their individuals are? You seem to want it both ways.

Seems like you just overreacted to me calling Blind bang average, which is frankly what I see whenever I watch Utd play, which admittedly isn't that often.

 

[roonster09]

I don't care what position he's playing the way he got done for City's first goal at OT was an absolute joke, I actually felt sorry for him. Apparently Poch and Vertonghen fell out about Vertonghens defending for Monaco's first goal at Wembley, and good on Poch for that. But blimey if he had been managing Blind he would probably have chucked his boots in the bin and we would never have seen him again, yet you call Rose's defending average?
.

But Poch is happy dealing with players who gives perfect performance everytime.

 

[iHicksy]

'Won the bidding war' = you paid more than any other club were prepared to. It's not as if other clubs offered similar or more money but Pogba's heart was set on Utd, as some here are suggesting.

You do realise that's the very definition of winning a bidding war? Paying more than the other clubs....

 

[roonster09]

You do realise that's the very definition of winning a bidding war? Paying more than the other clubs....

But but but we paid more and all that..

 

[SirHenryPercy]

But Poch is happy dealing with players who gives perfect performance everytime.

I can only imagine how long you've spent trawling through the Internet looking for something, and then found a video 6 months before Poch was even our manager!

You then found an even better clip from even further back, which was actually top class defending, the striker is clean through on goal and Verts isn't getting back so he cleverly pulls his shorts down forcing him to shoot high and wide, in fact so cleverly the ref didn't even give a pen.

Bottom line all players make mistakes, even the very best, it's just calling Rose average and then singing the virtues of Blind's qualities is a bit odd to me. It does show the value of good coaching though as Rose's all round game has progressed immeasurably under Poch.

 

[roonster09]

I can only imagine how long you've spent trawling through the Internet looking for something, and then found a video 6 months before Poch was even our manager!

You then found an even better clip from even further back, which was actually top class defending, the striker is clean through on goal and Verts isn't getting back so he cleverly pulls his shorts down forcing him to shoot high and wide, in fact so cleverly the ref didn't even give a pen.

Bottom line all players make mistakes, even the very best, it's just calling Rose average and then singing the virtues of Blind's qualities is a bit odd to me. It does show the value of good coaching though as Rose's all round game has progressed immeasurably under Poch.

I don't know what age you are, it takes just a second to search. You want examples from Poch time? Check out Newcastle goals against you and how good your best CB was when Aarons scored or how comical your whole defensive set up was when Rooney dribbled past 3 Spurs players.

Exactly, all players make mistakes. Citing Blind's performance against City as an example and calling him average is non sense when he was part of best defensive record last season and that too with every changing full backs.

You don't agree with the poster saying Blind is better than Rose, fine. But to use one off performance and over exaggerate Blind's performance is just laughable.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

I don't know what age you are, it takes just a second to search. You want examples from Poch time? Check out Newcastle goals against you and how good your best CB was when Aarons scored or how comical your whole defensive set up was when Rooney dribbled past 3 Spurs players.

Exactly, all players make mistakes. Citing Blind's performance against City as an example and calling him average is non sense when he was part of best defensive record last season and that too with every changing full backs.

You don't agree with the poster saying Blind is better than Rose, fine. But to use one off performance and over exaggerate Blind's performance is just laughable.

Lol are you always so tetchy? I honestly hope so as passion is a beautiful thing.

Anyway so what we have established is that there is sense calling Rose who was part of the best defence last season and this average, but not Blind because he was part of an equally restrictive defence last season but in a much more negative and defence minded set-up, fair enough.

You'll never find me anywhere saying that Utd don't have good players, criticising them or anything else, in fact I think I also said in the same post that Shaw is already a very good LB and could become even more, so I was hardly being damning. The only thing I think I can remember saying is that Danny Blind is bang average, which based on what I've seen of him is my opinion and is really not that controversial.

Ah I have also said that Fellaini isn't a footballer, again hardly controversial.

 

[Dec9003]

The "so what" is obvious: the pressure on those managers whose clubs have spent far, far more than Spurs - on both transfer fees and wages - is greater than it is on Pochettino.

And no, I'm not saying that all those 5 clubs have better squads than Spurs - the fact that that several of them don't is testament to their bungling given available financial resources.

Nor I am saying - nor have ever said - that Spurs have the best players: we have some of the best players, or at least some players who are as good as their counterparts. Nor am I saying that Spurs are not expected to win anything, just that the pressure on Pochettino is less than on his counterparts in the other 5 wealthier clubs

If there is less pressure when you have Kane, Delle, Alderwiereld, Lloris etc then there is a lack of ambition at the club.

 

[GlastonSpur]

If there is less pressure when you have Kane, Delle, Alderwiereld, Lloris etc then there is a lack of ambition at the club.

So let me get this straight: you think there is more pressure on Pochettino to win the league - regardless of the restrictive budget available to him - than on Mourinho, Pep, Conte and Wenger?

 

[SirHenryPercy]

If there is less pressure when you have Kane, Delle, Alderwiereld, Lloris etc then there is a lack of ambition at the club.

I really don't think there's a lack of ambition as a club, it's more to do with us fans not being used to winning things.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

So let me get this straight: you think there is more pressure on Pochettino to win the league - regardless of the restrictive budget available to him - than on Mourinho, Pep, Conte and Wenger?

We know there's no pressure on Poch to win the league, any pressure at the club right now is being created by Poch, not placed on him.

 

[roonster09]

Lol are you always so tetchy? I honestly hope so as passion is a beautiful thing.

Anyway so what we have established is that there is sense calling Rose who was part of the best defence last season and this average, but not Blind because he was part of an equally restrictive defence last season but in a much more negative and defence minded set-up, fair enough.

You'll never find me anywhere saying that Utd don't have good players, criticising them or anything else, in fact I think I also said in the same post that Shaw is already a very good LB and could become even more, so I was hardly being damning. The only thing I think I can remember saying is that Danny Blind is bang average, which based on what I've seen of him is my opinion and is really not that controversial.

Ah I have also said that Fellaini isn't a footballer, again hardly controversial.

I'm not, btw are all your posts laughably poor or is it only when you become very defensive?

Meh you posted idiotic post and used one off example, I posted defensive errors by spurs players. I didn't talk about Rose at all.

If your post is "someone called spurs player as average so better I call some ManUtd player as average" then I shouldn't have replied.

 

[Dec9003]

So let me get this straight: you think there is more pressure on Pochettino to win the league - regardless of the restrictive budget available to him - than on Mourinho, Pep, Conte and Wenger?

In a word yes. Poch has a settled team that is constantly raved about, and hes meant to be a top level manager. To me that sounds like he should be challenging for the title. Our team is a mismatch of three different managers purchases and Mourinho has managed about 10/15 competitive matches, there should be little pressure on us to win anything, unless the other teams drop loads of stupid points like last season. City are in a very similar situation to us, only Pep came to a better side than Mourinho, I still wouldn't expect silverware right away though. Conte started with a Chelsea team which was somehow worse than the United one last season, and how Wenger never wins the league and the only thing said about it is a minority Arsenal fans having a little paddy at the end of the season before forgetting about it is beyond me.
Poch needs to challenge, if he want's to be a top manager he needs to be more ambitious than Spurs generally are.
in comparison to Poch, Klopp took over a shite Liverpool side, didn't spend grand sums and now has them looking great. Poch needs to show he's at Klopps, Peps and Mourinhos level.

 

[SirHenryPercy]

I'm not, btw are all your posts laughably poor or is it only when you become very defensive?

Meh you posted idiotic post and used one off example, I posted defensive errors by spurs players. I didn't talk about Rose at all.

If your post is "someone called spurs player as average so better I call some ManUtd player as average" then I shouldn't have replied.

Haha still got the blood boiling, good lad.

Read back to the original post I responded to which was re Rose and if the pieces are big enough you might be able to put the jigsaw together, but I doubt it.

 

[roonster09]

Haha still got the blood boiling, good lad.

Read back to the original post I responded to which was re Rose and if the pieces are big enough you might be able to put the jigsaw together, but I doubt it.

I was replying to your point about Blind. Why will I read what was posted about Rose. So you are calling Blind as average only because Rose was called as one by ManUtd poster? Thought so.

I'm calm btw, did you find out how much time it takes to do Google search or do you still think it takes few hours?

 

[SirHenryPercy]

I was replying to your point about Blind. Why will I read what was posted about Rose. So you are calling Blind as average only because Rose was called as one by ManUtd poster? Thought so.

I'm calm btw, did you find out how much time it takes to do Google search or do you still think it takes few hours?

I called Blind 'bang average' because I think he's 'bang average', I hope that helps.

Other than that I'll let you have the last word as it's getting a bit daft.

 

[roonster09]

I'm not, btw are all your posts laughably poor or is it only when you become very defensive?
.

Quoting my own post as I got the answer I was looking for.

 

[Welsh Wonder]

You'll never find me anywhere saying that Utd don't have good players, criticising them or anything else, in fact I think I also said in the same post that Shaw is already a very good LB and could become even more, so I was hardly being damning. The only thing I think I can remember saying is that Danny Blind is bang average, which based on what I've seen of him is my opinion and is really not that controversial.

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

 

[Dobbs]

Seems like you just overreacted to me calling Blind bang average, which is frankly what I see whenever I watch Utd play, which admittedly isn't that often.

There's your problem. If I haven't watched much of a player I'd be reluctant to say he's this or that.

 

[GlastonSpur]

In a word yes. Poch has a settled team that is constantly raved about, and hes meant to be a top level manager. To me that sounds like he should be challenging for the title. Our team is a mismatch of three different managers purchases and Mourinho has managed about 10/15 competitive matches, there should be little pressure on us to win anything, unless the other teams drop loads of stupid points like last season. City are in a very similar situation to us, only Pep came to a better side than Mourinho, I still wouldn't expect silverware right away though. Conte started with a Chelsea team which was somehow worse than the United one last season, and how Wenger never wins the league and the only thing said about it is a minority Arsenal fans having a little paddy at the end of the season before forgetting about it is beyond me.
Poch needs to challenge, if he want's to be a top manager he needs to be more ambitious than Spurs generally are.
in comparison to Poch, Klopp took over a shite Liverpool side, didn't spend grand sums and now has them looking great. Poch needs to show he's at Klopps, Peps and Mourinhos level.

Challenging for the title is not the issue. The question is whether he's under more pressure than the other managers mentioned: it's ridiculous to say that he is.

Net spend for last 5 years:

City - £403m
United - £393m
Chelski - £244m
Arsenal - £206m
Liverpool - £125m

Spurs - £5.5m

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/pre...tables/premier-league-table-last-five-seasons

In other words, City and United have outspent Spurs in net terms by a factor of around 72 to 1. SEVENTY TWO! This is money that's been poured into their squads - and even Liverpool, who you say haven't "spent grand sums", have spent net 23 times more than Spurs. And we're not even taking into account wage bills here.

Even Burnley have outspent Spurs.

With such vast sums spent comes expectations and pressure - pressure that Pochettino simply doesn't face. He's done a remarkable job against a backdrop where most of our resources have been going into the new stadium complex. Levy knows it, Pochettino knows it and Spurs fans know it.

It's got zero to do with ambition, because of course Spurs would like to win the league.

 

[Wade3]

The point is, none of these clubs, despite (in your own words) being capable of offering these massive wages, did offer a wage comparable to what he got at Utd, at least to my knowledge. It's not as if he turned down similar wages elsewhere to pursue his dream of playing under Mou at Old Trafford. If (having agreed a fee with Juve) Pep at City offered to match or better his wages but Pogba still chose Utd you would have a point - but he didn't so you don't.

Indeed, it may be asked why there wasn't more competition from these moneyed clubs for his signature. Truth is, you overpaid massively on both the fee and his wages in order to secure him. I've no problem with that (that's more for Utd fans to dwell on how their club's budget is spent), but let's not pretend it was anything other than money that saw him end up at Utd.

The point is, none of these clubs, despite (in your own words) being capable of offering these massive wages, did offer a wage comparable to what he got at Utd, at least to my knowledge. It's not as if he turned down similar wages elsewhere to pursue his dream of playing under Mou at Old Trafford. If (having agreed a fee with Juve) Pep at City offered to match or better his wages but Pogba still chose Utd you would have a point - but he didn't so you don't.

Indeed, it may be asked why there wasn't more competition from these moneyed clubs for his signature. Truth is, you overpaid massively on both the fee and his wages in order to secure him. I've no problem with that (that's more for Utd fans to dwell on how their club's budget is spent), but let's not pretend it was anything other than money that saw him end up at Utd.

Unless you have definitive inside knowledge, it is hard to take your post seriously because it's based on other clubs not actually offering similar sums. I'm sure quite sure we were the highest bidders but I'm also quite sure we were the highest bidders for other players yet they didn't choose us.

Money is a factor in a player's decisions but when the amounts are not far apart, other factors play a role too. Given how many top players we were linked with in the past couple of years (some most likely just for leverage, other ones surely out of actual interest), that is quite obvious.

 

[balaks]

I'm starting to hate this thread more than the Spurs thread and that is quite an achievement.

 

[Stacks]

As I said if Martial finds any sort of form he's in easily. But atm he hasn't. Herrera is massively overrated on the Caf imho, a good solid player but imho I'd have either above him. What he has on the ball they have in other area's but again a tight call. I find it funny the bashing Fellaini gets and the praise Herrera recieves to be honest when now two of the most famous managers in the world are opting for the former. For whats it worth I'd take Herrera over Fellaini but neither bring to a team what Dier or Wanyama do imho. I'd have them there for defensive reasons with Pogba beside them and Erikson breaking forward but of course the post is just my opinion, one of many. Lamela as the other guy who quoted me is patchy but atm he looks a far better footballer than Martial (who'll probably destroy Liverpool Monday to prove me wrong.)

My point mainly was you could weight a team heavily towards Spurs though 7-4 in what I called originally, 6-5 if Martial finds form is a big difference to those who said they wouldn't have 2 players in the United one. Again my opinion but I think that each of the top few teams have strengths and weakness that other teams could benefit from. For example stick Aguero and KBD in the Spurs side and they are easily the best team in the league. Stick Spurs back 4 with City and they are much, much more solid (though a change of system would be necessary). So on each team has at least 4 players that would walk into the other top teams imho, Arsenal and City probably being strong in the same area's but some of those would be tight calls to make.

very true