Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Now what if some guys all decided to dress up as The Village People. Yes the guy was the Indian in the Village People was half Sioux or something like that. But are you guilty of cultural appropriation, racism, or insensitivity if you are the one who dresses up like Felipe Rose (yes I had to google to get what his real name was) or is it okay since you are dressing up as a guy from a campy 1970's disco group?
 
Cultural appropriation warrior hits a snag. Please help.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/55203p/feminists_of_reddit_what_gendered_issue_sounds/

The stuff about pregnant grad students ruining their future careers is something a friend of mine had to think about when considering her PhD, since she has some health issues and it probably won't be safe for her to have a child late. Her final reasoning was that she loved chemistry, hopefully more than she would love wanting a baby in the next 5-7 years (and thus ever).

I've become a feminist from some pretty anti-feminist positions so I still have some sympathy with those arguments: the university/professor cannot pay you with their very limited grant money while you aren't working. But: it's a burden only women have to experience.
Also, a postdoc in my lab (run by a female professor) recently got pregnant, worked till 3 days before delivery, and came back just 45 days later. I don't think that (or anything upto 3-4 months) is a huge hit to the lab funding. Of course, most students don't have the luxury of parents babysitting for your child.



Fortunately for me, my 0% success in dating corresponds with my 0% reproductive urge so I'm out of this mess and the potential sneering caused by taking time off as a father.
 
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crappycraperson said:
Terrible read. It increasingly seems that some on liberal left have joined the ways of regressive right in shunning debate and instead choosing intimidation to win the war of ideas.
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Is is anything new, though? The idea of the liberal left focusing on trivial shit instead of important matters is nothing new. It was getting parodied back in the late 70s in Life of Brian.
 
I don't consider this political correctness gone made, but it doesn't seem to need a thread about it and might fit in here

http://www.cnn.com/2016/11/03/us/harvard-soccer-season-canceled/index.html

A sexist tradition has cost the Harvard men's soccer team the rest of the season.
Harvard University canceled the remainder of the 2016 men's soccer season following an investigation into reports of a custom of ranking woman's soccer players' physical attributes in the lewdest of terms, university officials said.

The "scouting report" evaluated freshmen women soccer players on their looks and sex appeal with numerical scores and offensive descriptions, according to a Harvard Crimson report about the discovery of such a document from 2012.
But the "appalling actions" were not isolated to 2012, Harvard President Drew Faust said.
The report prompted a university investigation which found that the practice was "widespread across the team" and continued into the 2016 season, Harvard Athletics Director Bob Scalise said in an email to student athletes.

Read More
Current students "were not immediately forthcoming about their involvement," he added, leading to the decision to forfeit remaining games.
Harvard has 'zero tolerance' for such behavior
Harvard was scheduled to play two more regular season games. The team now will forfeit them and "decline any opportunity to achieve an Ivy League championship or to participate in the NCAA Tournament this year," Scalise wrote.
"We strongly believe that this immediate and significant action is absolutely necessary if we are to create an environment of mutual support, respect, and trust among our students and our teams," he added.
Going forward, Harvard Athletics will partner with the Office of Sexual Assault Prevention and Response and other Harvard College resources to educate all student-athletes on "the seriousness of these behaviors and the general standard of respect and conduct that is expected," he said.
"Harvard Athletics has zero tolerance for this type of behavior."
Faust said in a statement that she fully supported the decision to end the season.
"The decision to cancel a season is serious and consequential, and reflects Harvard's view that both the team's behavior and the failure to be forthcoming when initially questioned are completely unacceptable, have no place at Harvard, and run counter to the mutual respect that is a core value of our community," she wrote.
'Locker room talk' no excuse
Some of the women described in the 2012 report broke their silence in a Crimson op-ed. Kelsey Clayman, Brooke Dickens, Alika Keene, Emily Mosbacher, Lauren Varela and Haley Washburn said they were "beyond hurt" to learn that men they considered close friends treated them in such a way -- but, ultimately, not surprised.
"The sad reality is that we have come to expect this kind of behavior from so many men, that it is so 'normal' to us we often decide it is not worth our time or effort to dwell on," they wrote.
"In all, we do not pity ourselves, nor do we ache most because of the personal nature of this attack. More than anything, we are frustrated that this is a reality that all women have faced in the past and will continue to face throughout their lives. We feel hopeless because men who are supposed to be our brothers degrade us like this."
They said they had seen the documents but knew better than to let "the judgment of a few men" determine their worth -- thanks in large part to their training at Harvard.
"We know what it's like to get knocked down. To lose a few battles. To sweat, to cry, to bleed. To fight so hard, yet no matter what we do, the game is still out of our hands. And, even still, we keep fighting; for ourselves, yes, but above all for our teammates. This document might have stung any other group of women you chose to target, but not us," they wrote.
"'Locker room talk'" is not an excuse because this is not limited to athletic teams. The whole world is the locker room. Yet in it we feel blessed to know many men who do not and would never participate in this behavior out of respect for us—out of respect for women. To them we are grateful, and with them we strive to share a mutual respect through our own actions and words."
Correction: An earlier version of this story incorrectly identified Harvard President Drew Faust as a man.
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The correction at the bottom of the article also deserves special attention and a huge facepalm.
 
Preferred pronouns are the new civil rights movement according to the transgender community. To think there are now 31 gender identities businesses in New York have to learn to avoid up to $250k fines. But Facebook seem to think there are actually 58. :lol:

Sheer lunacy, and anyone propping up this brand of mental illness and narcissism needs a smack. Dark times.
 
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch...eful-harassment-and-intimidation-election-day


My 12 year old daughter is African American. A boy approached her and said, "now that Trump is president, I'm going to shoot you and all the blacks I can find". We reported it to the school who followed up with my daughter and the boy appropriately.
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The day after the presidential election, my friend, a black female freshman in a [Boston area college], heard a white female student say: "this is their punishment for 8 years of black people." When she turned around to see who said it, the white student laughed at her.
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I was standing at a red light waiting to cross the street. A black truck with three white men pulled up to the red light. One of them yelled, "feck your black life!" The other two began to laugh. One began to chant "Trump!" as they drove away.
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"Build a wall" was chanted in our cafeteria Wed at lunch."If you aren't born here, pack your bags" was shouted in my own classroom. "Get out spic" was said in our halls.
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A student in an English IV course told his teacher, who is Mexican-American, that he needs to take his family and get out of our country. The student mentioned he wasn't welcome any longer. He supported this argument by citing comments from our President-elect.
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Someone painted "Trump 2016 MAGA" and "you gotta go back now" on the wall outside the building I work in at the University of South Florida
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"Death to Diversity" was written on a banner displayed on our library for people to see, as well as written on posters across campus. As well as white males going up to women saying that it was now "legal to grab them by the pussy".
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On Wednesday, November 9, 2016, a student in a Trump T-shirt was going down the halls of the high school saying, "BYE!" to girls in hijabs and anyone who appeared to be of Mexican descent. (The matter is being investigated.)
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Today a young Latino man in is 20's, and a co-worker of mine, was walking into work as a truck slowed down and two white men threw a bag of garbage onto him and yelled, "you are going back to where you came from" and drove off. This was in Austin, a very liberal and progressive city. I am shocked and appalled that this happened.
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White males in black Ford truck were calling a black family in vehicle next to them N***ers, and yelling that it was Trump's country now. Truck sped off before I could get license info.
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Keeps It tidy said:
You often notice that anti PC people often become real delicate around the word racism.
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Being called racist* is worse than racism, don't cha know.

* Or more often, simply being told you're maybe not being quite as sensitive as you could be to a complicated issue you haven't a full understanding or experience of...is worse than racism... Don't cha know.
 
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hobbers said:
Can't say I've ever noticed that. In fact most would revel in having words like racism thrown at them incorrectly. If some dumb SJW calls you a racist over a fact or an opinion they don't like, it's just their unique way of conceding the argument.

The overuse of the word is quickly reducing its impact to nothing, sadly.
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Curious, what's defined as racism to you?
 
I'm always curious why people think the term Social Justice Warrior is an insult. If anything should tip you off to the fact you might be the baddies, it's when the derogatory terms you use for your 'enemies' are actually really nice and positive things.

"Social Justice!? Pah! Who dares bring this blight of justice upon our lands? And damn those dastardly fluffy bunnies, too. We'll show them and their adorable cotton ball tails before the winter's out. Mwa ha ha ha!"

Same goes for 'bleeding heart'..."Oh no, you care to much! What a cnut."

If I found myself being constantly agitated by the thought of generally nice ideas, I'd probably start checking my hat for skulls.
 
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@hobbers how does that definition and example differ from racial prejudice or discrimination?
Being called an Uncle Tom might hurt their feelings sure, but then what, is racism just name calling and thinking less of someone?
 
hobbers said:
Any thought or action that discriminates against someone based on the colour of their skin. Holding a belief that skin colour is an indicator of someones value as an individual or of a certain ability or weakness they possess. Although I'd also expand that definition to the belief that an individual must act in certain set ways according to their skin colour.

For instance, when a black lives matter activist calls a black conservative a race traitor, coconut or an uncle tom. That's acutely racist.
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Good to know you're setting the rules here. I'm sure you're well placed to know what is and isn't racism.
 
Mockney said:
I'm always curious why people think the term Social Justice Warrior is an insult. If anything should tip you off to the fact you might be the baddies, it's when the derogatory terms you use for your 'enemies' are actually really nice and positive things.
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Did you read the Washington Post article, Pedro posted a little further up the page? Would you categorise what occurred there as really nice and positive?

This thread doesn't exist to deny social justice, indeed most posters have a fairer society in mind. It is rather that some of the people featured have proved to be hypocritical in their purported attempts to achieve such.


Pogue Mahone said:
Good to know you're setting the rules here. I'm sure you're well placed to know what is and isn't racism.
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Steady on Pogue, vi1lain just asked to define those actions he considered to be racism.
 
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I would argue that an act of racism extends beyond mere thoughts and name-calling, however offensive it is.

For example across the road from where I work there is a bloke who racially abuses any person of colour that he sees when he's drunk. He presents no danger and is generally laughed at by the local residents who see him has a bloke who's prejudiced and holds racist views. In fact when sober, he makes no bones about how attracted he is to black women.

On the other hand for many people they fear people in authority that hold similar racist views (ie Police officers, politicians etc) because they possess the power to act on those beliefs. They can actually affect and alter the outcome of someone's life, and in many a instance over many years have done so.
 
Bury Red said:
It's more the fact that it doesn't seem to affect anyone other than a few oversensitive, invariably white SJWs who would still think we hadn't gone far enough to amend for the colonial wrongs of our ancestors when the self flagellation had removed every last trace of our pasty white flesh.

I've always found it absurd the way we attempt to tiptoe around racial and cultural stereotypes for fear of causing offense whilst the rest of the world just largely gets on with it and laughs, I remember as a left wing student being acutely embarrassed when my Indian housemate at Uni stuck on "The Party" one stoned Saturday afternoon and not quite understanding how he was pissing himself laughing at Peter Sellers rather than being offended. After all these years I still don't understand it, I'm just sure it's me that's got it wrong to some extent as I see 70s sitcoms like Mind Your Language are still airing on TV and sell on DVD in India and Singapore.
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Great Post. Thanks.
 
vi1lain said:
@hobbers how does that definition and example differ from racial prejudice or discrimination?
Being called an Uncle Tom might hurt their feelings sure, but then what, is racism just name calling and thinking less of someone?
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Racism can only exist in the form of thoughts which may or may not lead to actions, so essentially yes. But obviously action can have a much broader scope than just name calling.


Pogue Mahone said:
Good to know you're setting the rules here. I'm sure you're well placed to know what is and isn't racism.
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Really? Well, if you disagree with my opinion you're more than welcome to critique it.
 
hobbers said:
Racism can only exist in the form of thoughts which may or may not lead to actions, so essentially yes. But obviously action can have a much broader scope than just name calling.




Really? Well, if you disagree with my opinion you're more than welcome to critique it.
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Again, how does that differ from prejudice or discrimination?
What makes something racist versus it just being discrimination based on race?
 
vi1lain said:
Again, how does that differ from prejudice or discrimination?
What makes something racist versus it just being discrimination based on race?
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Whether the intention behind the discrimination stemmed from a racist ideology.
 
Shinehead Dred said:
I would argue that an act of racism extends beyond mere thoughts and name-calling, however offensive it is.

For example across the road from where I work there is a bloke who racially abuses any person of colour that he sees when he's drunk. He presents no danger and is generally laughed at by the local residents who see him has a bloke who's prejudiced and holds racist views. In fact when sober, he makes no bones about how attracted he is to black women.

On the other hand for many people they fear people in authority that hold similar racist views (ie Police officers, politicians etc) because they possess the power to act on those beliefs. They can actually affect and alter the outcome of someone's life, and in many a instance over many years have done so.
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Good post, I agree.
Everybody is discriminatory or holds prejudiced views for example many people think blondes are better than brunettes. Difference is what you do with those thoughts and opinions that really matter.
Can blondes show their advantage over brunettes to the point where it affects their ability to get a job, get a house etc. No, of course not. Has there been a long historical context that displays brunettes as being second class citizens and worth less than blondes? Nope. Are brunettes more likely to be a target of violence or threat based on their hair colour? Nope, and so on.
Therefore what's the real impact other than it being someones opinion?

I think people get tied into this idea that racism is simply insulting or thinking less of someone based on their race only, and something can only be racist if there are derogatory terms associated with it.
And until you've lived your life being a person of colour, I don't really see how you can qualify what is truly is racist.

hobbers said:
Whether the intention behind the discrimination stemmed from a racist ideology.
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I still don't think that adequately differentiates between racism and prejudice or discrimination, but i'm not going to tell you what your opinion should be.

I would however suggest that you're not really in the position to talk about the impact of racism, or it's overuse - especially since (i'm assuming) it's not something that impacts your life? Therefore how could you measure the impact it has on those it does affect?
 
To what extent do you think the Trump phenomenon is explained by the issues being discussed in this thread? I mean, there's also Nafta and his supposed business acumen. And then there's the question of whether Clinton lost it, rather than Trump winning it. But how much is down to the fact he says what a lot of people think but are afraid to say? Or feel frowned upon for saying?
 
Adebesi said:
To what extent do you think the Trump phenomenon is explained by the issues being discussed in this thread? I mean, there's also Nafta and his supposed business acumen. And then there's the question of whether Clinton lost it, rather than Trump winning it. But how much is down to the fact he says what a lot of people think but are afraid to say? Or feel frowned upon for saying?
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Lots. The guy in this video touched upon some of it. Well, from what I could tell while I was trying to avoid throwing up from the camera work, anyway

 
Yeah I saw that video, caused quite a stir among a few people I know. But I agree. Saw a clip on a right wing channel called Louder with Crowder which said something like "people don't want some ****** taking a dump next to their 6 year old daughter while they're at Chucky Cheese", which I thought summed up a certain mood quite amusingly.
 
I watched that video ready to disagree with him and did with some of his opening gambits. Since when is admitting to having a public and private persona a bad thing?! But he makes some good points, which I've been banging on about in this thread. The combination of social media and ever diminishing important stuff to complain about means that the liberal left has crawled up its own arse and become its own worst enemy.
 
But what are the "liberal left" actually saying (or not) that is causing such extreme reactions? A genuine question?

Surely it's got to be more than "I can't say what I think" argument? If so why the outrage at things like kids protesting about a safe space in college. In the 60s were there not protests about black students going to white colleges? What's different?

Are there more immigrants and people of colour in better jobs, homes or positions of status and influence that I'm not aware of? Last time I checked they ranked highly amongst the dispossessed and unlistened to in society.

Is arguing for a fairer world for all so wrong? Why does the white voter feel so alienated in a world which in recent history they have dominated?
 
Olly said:
Lots. The guy in this video touched upon some of it. Well, from what I could tell while I was trying to avoid throwing up from the camera work, anyway

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The guy hits the nail on the head imo. Instead of being angry at the Trump voters they should be angry at their own party for not offering a real alternative to Trump. She lost because she couldn't get people to vote for her and not because the racists and misogynists came out in droves.

His point about the debating culture the regressive left and the alt right have created is also very poisoned atmosphere very everyone who doesn't agree with them 100% is automatically the enemy, if you want to convince someone of your view point that's a dead certain way to not make it happen and will drive a lot of people who are moderate into one or the other extreme corner and the debating culture goes to complete shit.
 
Shinehead Dred said:
But what are the "liberal left" actually saying (or not) that is causing such extreme reactions? A genuine question?

Surely it's got to be more than "I can't say what I think" argument? If so why the outrage at things like kids protesting about a safe space in college. In the 60s were there not protests about black students going to white colleges? What's different?

Are there more immigrants and people of colour in better jobs, homes or positions of status and influence that I'm not aware of? Last time I checked they ranked highly amongst the dispossessed and unlistened to in society.

Is arguing for a fairer world for all so wrong? Why does the white voter feel so alienated in a world which in recent history they have dominated?
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My guess is the biggest turnoff is the frequently pushed idea of 'white privilege'. All other things being equal, of course it's easier being white than being a minority. But all other things aren't equal - there are huge variances in circumstances. A lot of white people feel poor and left behind... telling them they're 'privileged' is a sure fire way to piss them off and show that you don't understand their circumstances.

The biggest indicator of privilege in our societies is wealth. That's not to say we should completely stop talking about other considerations such as gender, race or nationality, but there needs to be a focus on the fact that a poor white person has more in common with a poor black person than they do with a rich white person. And a rich black person has more in common with a rich white person than a poor black person.

Focussing on identity politics that seeks to elevate racial division above wealth as the issue of our time is completely counterproductive. It divides the natural working class coalition we need to construct if we are to win elections from the left.
 
I've been reading some of Obama's speeches from 2008 - he delivered a brilliant speech on race at the National Constitution Center. It contained this passage which I think perfectly encapsulates the problem:

That anger [that black people feel] is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don't feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience - as far as they're concerned, no one's handed them anything, they've built it from scratch. They've worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they're told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren't always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze - a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns - this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.
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That's exactly it. Obama understood that dividing up the working class into blacks, whites, latinos and the rest is an extremely counterproductive thing for any liberal to be doing. It means you can't win elections from the left.

Worth reading the full transcript here: http://constitutioncenter.org/amoreperfectunion/
 
T
MikeUpNorth said:
I've been reading some of Obama's speeches from 2008 - he delivered a brilliant speech on race at the National Constitution Center. It contained this passage which I think perfectly encapsulates the problem:



That's exactly it. Obama understood that dividing up the working class into blacks, whites, latinos and the rest is an extremely counterproductive thing for any liberal to be doing. It means you can't win elections from the left.

Worth reading the full transcript here: http://constitutioncenter.org/amoreperfectunion/
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Thanks for the link and earlier response. I have to read the full transcript.

I totally agree with you that in a ideal world we should be focussing on shared issues and ideologies, rather than those that divide us. It's a travesty that in the 21st century that the issue of racial division still exists. But it does. But isn't that what happened with Brexit and Trump? The politics of "us and them"? Elevation of race, immigration etc as the reason for the lack of wealth?

I cant agree that people should live in a world where all things aren't equal circumstancewise or any otherwise simply because that the way it is.

Your comment:

A lot of white people feel poor and left behind... telling them they're 'privileged' is a sure fire way to piss them off and show that you don't understand their circumstances.

I think you could replace "white people" with black, Latino etc and this comment would still be correct.

So what does someone who falls into the "minorities" (god I hate this word) group do when they feel disenfranchised or left behind? How do they make their voices heard, or doesn't it matter because they aren't white and poor?

What other elements contribute to "white privilege" other than wealth for you? I believe there are many other important factors at play, such as education, housing, opportunities for employment, social acceptance etc. The list is endless....
 
MikeUpNorth said:
My guess is the biggest turnoff is the frequently pushed idea of 'white privilege'. All other things being equal, of course it's easier being white than being a minority. But all other things aren't equal - there are huge variances in circumstances. A lot of white people feel poor and left behind... telling them they're 'privileged' is a sure fire way to piss them off and show that you don't understand their circumstances.

The biggest indicator of privilege in our societies is wealth. That's not to say we should completely stop talking about other considerations such as gender, race or nationality, but there needs to be a focus on the fact that a poor white person has more in common with a poor black person than they do with a rich white person. And a rich black person has more in common with a rich white person than a poor black person.

Focussing on identity politics that seeks to elevate racial division above wealth as the issue of our time is completely counterproductive. It divides the natural working class coalition we need to construct if we are to win elections from the left.
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It's important to note that "white privilege" isn't only about economic status, money, wealth etc. - this is a dangerous concept that will only leave you feeling frustrated, especially if you aren't rich.
Privilege is a wide scope that covers a lot of things, social environments, education etc.
Also depending on the context, white privilege isn't even a bad thing, it can be used to make changes that impact everybody. Instead the usual response is to feel attacked and get defensive. Similar principle for Black Lives Matter. Instead of asking the question why these things exist or what we can do to build bridges and open communication, we stay isolated and listen to propaganda from both sides.

To be able to say "i'm a white person who feels left behind" means that you begin to understand what minorities have been saying for decades, that the system is broken, politicians don't represent us, a change needs to be made etc.
The difference is when white people begin to feel left behind things change much quicker.
 
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