Has political correctness actually gone mad?

Pogue Mahone said:
You're right, of course. What's going on in (some) US campuses isn't comparable to the proper, systematic racism from the bad old days. But it does feel like their version of a civil rights movement is jumping the shark when they decide that the logical next step to move away from all that shit is basically the exact opposite of progress.
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When it starts to work its way into law, I'll worry. Until then, I'll resist getting worked up. However, you're not completely wrong. The biggest problem modern leftism has is its tendency to slip into parody, and thus inadvertently become a recruitment tool for the right. The whole censorious attitude the likes of Jon Ronson exposed, is definitely something I find worrisome...There's merit there, for sure... However...

hobbers said:
If whites were not a minority on that campus that sort of idiocy could easily turn violent.
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For one, Whites most certainly aren't a minority on that campus. It's Berkley FSS! What on earth would give you that idea? For two, are you actually implying that this imaginary minority status is the only thing stopping white students from assaulting peaceful ethnic protesters? Because if that's the case, you've just made a far better case for minority safe spaces, than any protester could possibly hope to!

Even ignoring that particular lunacy, it's still worth pointing out that white people pretending to be outraged by this kind of nothing are just feigning outrage. The kind of outrage you shrug off over dinner, rather than seeth over for generations. All in order to justify an insecure discomfort at the change in stauts quo. Like Donald Trump complaining about getting less time in the debates than Hilary, when he was factually shown to have gotten more; For those born on the right side of privilege, and losing the most territory, equality always feels like oppression.

If i were at Berkeley with that sort of bigotry being openly permitted I'd feel somewhat oppressed.
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No you wouldn't. You've probably feck all idea what being oppressed means in tangible terms. It doesn't mean "being peeved enough of an evening to rant a bit on the net"..It means being consistently held back and fecked over by the mechanisms of power for generations, then getting told you're overstepping your boundaries when you're given small, reparational advantages to make up for your deep endemic powerlessness....And then being told that's oppressing those comfortable with the status quo.

If a group of white students tried that exact same stunt they'd be kicked out of college by the end of the day..
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Yes, because the two things would be significantly different, contextually. In the same way Cracker and Nigger are. White people stopping blacks from entering a college in 2016, would have poignant historical president, and could be actively and genuinely hurtful to black people. Black people telling whites to walk a few meters to the left, has no context at all, and would only engender anything approaching anger in those desperate for a pee. Or desperate for an argument.


@Pogue Mahone Look what you've done!?
 
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The online mob isn't an exclusively left wing problem though. I'm not even sure how left wing mobs have become so contentious and thought of as a dominating one. Perhaps because newspapers and online click farms have realised there's money to be made in copy-paste journalism. But I struggle to think of ethics in gaming journalism (mandatory lol) or Leslie Jones taking abuse for doing a white mans job as SJW crowds.

But, hey ho, white men are totally oppressed so what would I know.
 
From a conscientious newbie.

Bacon apologist said:
"I realize the thread has turned into a "laugh at and get outraged by kids" kinda thing, so I don't know if you were serious about posting about the Berkeley protest, but you do know that they are not trying to recreate segregation, right?

If you're interested, the protest was over a conflict with the administration about the location of a safe space ment for, among others, gay people, transgender people and racial minorities. I know 'safe space' is a dirty and fuzzy word for a lot of people, so just in case; it's literally just a room (in this case it's literally a room) where certain things, depending on who the safe space is designed for, are off limit.

So, it's less about "let's bring back the good old days, feck race mixing", and more about "hey, why did you move our room to a shitty location in the basement?"

Oh, and they were blocking people of all races, not just white people."
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Mockney said:
For one, Whites most certainly aren't a minority on that campus. It's Berkley FSS! What on earth would give you that idea?
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Looks majority Asian to me.

Mockney said:
are you actually implying that this imaginary minority status is the only thing stopping white students from assaulting peaceful ethnic protesters? Because if that's the case, you've just made a far better case for minority safe spaces, than any protester could possibly hope to!
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Ohohoho, definitely not. Quite the opposite. The more white people there are the more aggressive and confrontational some of these headcases would have been, and the more chances of flashpoints.

Mockney said:
Even ignoring that particular lunacy, it's still worth pointing out that white people pretending to be outraged by this kind of nothing are just feigning outrage.
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Who's outraged? I think most people just like mocking these idiots for embracing blatantly regressive concepts, and being racist in their means of protest.

Mockney said:
No you wouldn't. You've probably feck all idea what being oppressed means in tangible terms.
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No more so than any of those kids in that blockade, no.

Mockney said:
Yes, because the two things would be significantly different, contextually. In the same way Cracker and Nigger are. White people stopping blacks from entering a college in 2016, would have poignant historical president, and could be actively and genuinely hurtful to black people.
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When did it suddenly become white people stopping blacks from entering college? What if white students were campaigning for whites only spaces because they don't particularly feel comfortable around those of other ethnic groups?

tl;dr racism in the past was really bad. So a little racism in the opposite direction in the here and now is fine.
 
Silva said:
The online mob isn't an exclusively left wing problem though. I'm not even sure how left wing mobs have become so contentious and thought of as a dominating one. Perhaps because newspapers and online click farms have realised there's money to be made in copy-paste journalism. But I struggle to think of ethics in gaming journalism (mandatory lol) or Leslie Jones taking abuse for doing a white mans job as SJW crowds.

But, hey ho, white men are totally oppressed so what would I know.
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It's the Trump/Farage/Clarkson model of idiocracy. Blame criticism of your ideas on imaginary victimization by the all knowing, all seeing (and probably super-Jewy) lefty liberal media...Despite existing solely on the support of the infinitely more powerful, reactionary, Murdoch controlled, right wing media, that owns 80% of our newspapers, most of our television, and yet still spends most of its energy trying to undermine the one, small, license fee funded corner of the cultureshepre it doesn't control.
 
I don't think anybody here is suggesting that what is occurring on campuses is comparable in its societal impact. However, universities do represent that final transition between schooling and the workplace, and we should want our next generation to be as inclusive as possible.

In one of the articles posted earlier, it referred to a universities where grief and sexuality events were divided upon racial lines; why should this course be encouraged? Empathy and understanding have more to do with someone's personality and mindset than their ethnicity.
 
Silva said:
The online mob isn't an exclusively left wing problem though. I'm not even sure how left wing mobs have become so contentious and thought of as a dominating one. Perhaps because newspapers and online click farms have realised there's money to be made in copy-paste journalism. But I struggle to think of ethics in gaming journalism (mandatory lol) or Leslie Jones taking abuse for doing a white mans job as SJW crowds.

But, hey ho, white men are totally oppressed so what would I know.
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I think that's shown itself through a lot of the Donald Trump supporting groups on Reddit and the like. In their attempt to somehow be different, or trying to highlight their supposed oppression...they're just as oppressive to any dissenting opinion as any left-wing group they claim to hate...probably much, much more so, but seem to lack the self-awareness to see it, or perhaps just don't want to admit it.
 
hobbers said:
Looks majority Asian to me.
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If you combine all different denominations of "Asian" into one, manageable monthly "Asian", then sure. But then that would be pretty darn racist, really...


Ohohoho, definitely not. Quite the opposite. The more white people there are the more aggressive and confrontational some of these headcases would have been, and the more chances of flashpoints.
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Aside from failing to accept how wrong you were about the Berkely demographics (because hey, why should factual accuracy matter when you're making sweeping prejudicial judgements about races!?) you're now saying that a white majority would indeed increase violence, but only by being so irresistibly white and awesome, that the huddled minority masses would inevitably rise up and attack them?...because... Why not?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, because that sounds so awful, I'm sure I must have misinterpreted it.


Who's outraged? I think most people just like mocking these idiots for embracing blatantly regressive concepts, and being racist in their means of protest.
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By now I'm well aware that I'm wasting my time with you, but it'd be remiss of me to not at least try and point out (for the benefit of others) that the fact you feel comically indifferent to this outrage, proves precisely how unwarranted the comparison between actual racism, and your idea of racism, is.

When did it suddenly become white people stopping blacks from entering college? What if white students were campaigning for whites only spaces because they don't particularly feel comfortable around those of other ethnic groups?
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White students wouldn't have to campaign for white spaces, because 99.99% of spaces are white by default. Once again, this is the point. Racism doesn't exist in a vacuum. After centuries of slavery, and a mere 50 odd years of attempted rehabilitation, we can't just handwave ourselves back to default!

The last 300+ years of history has been a long form tale of white people stopping blacks from entering everything!...It's only in the last half century or so that we've even begun to look at it any differently.

;dr racism in the past was really bad. So a little racism in the opposite direction in the here and now is fine.
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Ipso Facto; Racism's done! The Fresh Prince cured it. Well done everyone!
 
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Mockney said:
Some of you have a really poor grasp of what racism and oppression actually are, do and mean in the real world. That Berkeley shit is daffy duck, hippy yout nonsense, obviously, but it's not oppressive, or even closely equivalent to the Civil Rights movement.

Comparing slightly inconveniencing white students entering one entrance of a College, with the aim of setting up misguided but harmless social areas, with the hate fuelled resistance of the state, police and populace to black people even being allowed in centres of higher learning, by penalty of law, is crass to say the very least..

Young idealist liberals can be idiots. Always have been. Don't use it as justification to become an even more idiotic Mail comment section dickhead.
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Good post.
I'm not in favour of a space segregated by colour or any other characteristic*. But to equate that to, say segregated bathrooms is misleading. This particular space was a meeting to discuss experiences of racial discrimination, which is nothing like a bathroom (that has nothing to do with race**)

* Though if there was a women-only rape victim meeting...I don't see how I'd object.


Silva said:
It's always worth noting he's the guy who said feminist on twitter fish for rape threats.
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Was wondering if I would have to point this out :D


**Insert correlation between race and penis length here.
 
Mockney said:
Some of you have a really poor grasp of what racism and oppression actually are, do and mean in the real world. That Berkeley shit is daffy duck, hippy yout nonsense, obviously, but it's not oppressive, or even closely equivalent to the Civil Rights movement.

Comparing slightly inconveniencing white students entering one entrance of a College, with the aim of setting up misguided but harmless social areas, with the hate fuelled resistance of the state, police and populace to black people even being allowed in centres of higher learning, by penalty of law, is crass to say the very least..

Young idealist liberals can be idiots. Always have been. Don't use it as justification to become an even more idiotic Mail comment section dickhead.
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Most 'racism' these days is daffy duck, hippy nonsense. Funnily enough much of the Looney Tunes back catalogue struggles to get airtime now because a lot of it offends someone or other. There is very little real racism left of the ilk that created racial segregation in the US. Still, excluding someone based on the colour of their skin is the very definition of racism, and you can be absolutely certain it would be global news if it was the other way around. Don't try and sugar coat it.
 
11101 said:
Most 'racism' these days is daffy duck, hippy nonsense. Funnily enough much of the Looney Tunes back catalogue struggles to get airtime now because a lot of it offends someone or other. There is very little real racism left of the ilk that created racial segregation in the US. Still, excluding someone based on the colour of their skin is the very definition of racism, and you can be absolutely certain it would be global news if it was the other way around. Don't try and sugar coat it.
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The only sugar coating here is the attempt to ignore the hundreds of years of racism that still have a very real effect, including Mike Pence an actual person trying to become Vice President of the US actively pursuing the suppression of black voters and Donald Trump, an actual person trying to become President of the US wanting to ramp up the consistently proven to be racist broken windows and stop and frisk practices in US police departments. Liberal hippy nonsense that's lead to the deaths of thousands of black men, that's lead to the extremely disproportionately racist implementation of the war on drugs that imprisons black men for private profit. Daffy Duck racism that made it possible for doubting the legitimacy of the first black president to thrust someone as a major party candidate for president. If these things aren't real racism, what the feck is? Do you need to see an actual lynching to think there's a problem?

Minority communities don't want to have to rely to having private meetings and and they don't want to have to focus on relatively narrow policies. But the way the deck is stacked against them means they have to. It's not a choice, but a necessity.
 
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Straight white people complaining they're not allowed to go to an LGBT workshop meant for people of colour are a bit like an ugly, single, overweight, STD ridden drunk complaining he's not allowed to enter burning man's orgy tent. Is it really that difficult to work out why?
 
Mockney said:
If you combine all different denominations of "Asian" into one, manageable monthly "Asian", then sure. But then that would be pretty darn racist, really...
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Sad that you're not even joking. Japan, China and Korea, along with Taiwan and Vietnam, are already defined as East Asian from a cultural perspective. Or are we now saying every country has to have its own defined race? If so, we're going to need to brainstorm a lot more races to classify all those white and black people. Because it looks like African American has suddenly become a racist term. Lumping white Americans and Canadians together? Racist. Colombians and Mexicans are both Latino? Racist.

Mockney said:
only by being so irresistibly white and awesome that the huddled minority masses would inevitably rise up and attack them?
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Hey, your words. Seriously though, why is this so difficult to comprehend? The video clearly shows the level of aggression shown to those who were white. The more white, the more instances of aggression. The more white, the greater the chance of that behavior attracting justified ridicule. The more white, the greater the chance of flashpoints. It's not rocket science.

Good luck finding a white student in Berkeley dumb enough to instigate aggression or violence on a member of a minority on campus.

Mockney said:
proves precisely how unwarranted the comparison between actual racism, and your idea of racism, is.
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I simply pointed out a couple of basic observations that even a child could see. You're the one drawing false equivalences all over the shop to pad out your crusade for social justice.

I'm not debating this point, racism is racism is racism. As I already said, the effect and scale may be smaller but the motivation is the same.

Mockney said:
White students wouldn't have to campaign for white spaces, because 99.99% of spaces are white by default. Once again, this is the point. Racism doesn't exist in a vacuum. After centuries of slavery, and a mere 50 odd years of attempted rehabilitation, we can't just handwave ourselves back to default!
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White college kids wouldn't want to campaign for white spaces because they are not intolerant of other ethnic or racial groups. And the only thing endangering that tolerance is the identity politics championed by the snowflakes on display here.

The best way to perpetuate racial tensions is divisory identity politics. Keep telling black kids that white privilege is out there systematically eradicating their life prospects, and then wondering why they don't achieve their potential, or why they feel they need safe spaces from white students at college.

Silva said:
It's always worth noting he's the guy who said feminist on twitter fish for rape threats.
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Ah yes. I who dared to give too much credit. Sorry, the correct opinion here is that there could never be a radical feminist smart enough to do that, right?
 
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You're right, we should tell everyone that there's no such thing as systemic bias and discrimination. That'll lead to way more progress. Sticking your head in the sand never hurt anyone, right?
 
How long before puritans complain that alcoholics anonymous is discriminatory? Or before they complain that drug rehabilitation clinics won't admit them? Why do OBYGNs treat so few men? What's the deal with NAACP? Shouldn't white people get to advance their grievances? We used to have slaves, it's so hard now.
 
Silva said:
Straight white people complaining they're not allowed to go to an LGBT workshop meant for people of colour are a bit like an ugly, single, overweight, STD ridden drunk complaining he's not allowed to enter burning man's orgy tent. Is it really that difficult to work out why?
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Are you in a minority where you live? I am.

I'm comfortable enough in my own skin to get on with things, and realise stirring up ill feeling by attempting to segregate myself by excluding others would have a detrimental effect. Pick your battles, and do it when there is genuine racism to be addressed. Don't sully the cause by bleating on every little thing like these people are.
 
Silva said:
You're right, we should tell everyone that there's no such thing as systemic bias and discrimination. That'll lead to way more progress.
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Well honesty is usually a good starting point.
 
11101 said:
Are you in a minority where you live? I am.

I'm comfortable enough in my own skin to get on with things, and realise stirring up ill feeling by attempting to segregate myself by excluding others would have a detrimental effect. Pick your battles.
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I am, but what does that have to do with it? As far as I can tell, a university society was being mistreated and protested. Why should they not fight that battle?

hobbers said:
Well honesty is usually a good starting point.
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"we don't want to be treated like shit" is about as honest as it gets.
 
I generally dislike the tendency on the part of some people to portray white men as being the great victims of modern society. Even still, I happily read through Mockney and Silva's posts looking for points to argue against as I quite enjoy being contrary.

Then I read things like "most 'racism' these days is daffy duck, hippy nonsense", "there is very little real racism left of the ilk that created racial segregation in the US" and "white college kids wouldn't want to campaign for white spaces because they are not intolerant of other ethnic or racial groups".

Ffs guys.
 
sullydnl said:
I generally dislike the tendency on the part of some people to portray white men as being the great victims of modern society. Even still, I happily read through Mockney and Silva's posts looking for points to argue against as I quite enjoy being contrary.

Then I read things like "most 'racism' these days is daffy duck, hippy nonsense", "there is very little real racism left of the ilk that created racial segregation in the US" and "white college kids wouldn't want to campaign for white spaces because they are not intolerant of other ethnic or racial groups".

Ffs guys.
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Have a look through the history books if you think modern racism is the Western world is anywhere close to what it once was. We're a million times better now and very few serious incidences of it occur, but you wouldn't think that to listen to some people. There is still some way to go but arguing things like segregating a college group just dilutes the real problems.
 
11101 said:
Have a look through the history books if you think modern racism is the Western world is anywhere close to what it once was. We're a million times better now and very few serious incidences of it occur, but you wouldn't think that to listen to some people. There is still some way to go but arguing things like segregating a college group just dilutes the real problems.
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Being "not close to where it was once" is a million miles away from the point you're making that it's more or less a non issue.
 
Mockney said:
For those born on the right side of privilege, and losing the most territory, equality always feels like oppression.
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This needs to be said a million times over, and over, and over again.

11101 said:
Have a look through the history books if you think modern racism is the Western world is anywhere close to what it once was. We're a million times better now and very few serious incidences of it occur, but you wouldn't think that to listen to some people. There is still some way to go but arguing things like segregating a college group just dilutes the real problems.
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Out of curiosity, how do you - I presume as a non person of colour - identify racism?
Telling people who are of colour that racism isn't as bad as it once was, therefore we're doing a great job and you shouldn't complain, isn't really comforting. And if you were a person of colour you would know this, and know how ridiculous your argument is.
 
vi1lain said:
Out of curiosity, how do you - I presume as a non person of colour - identify racism?
Telling people who are of colour that racism isn't as bad as it once was, therefore we're doing a great job and you shouldn't complain, isn't really comforting. And if you were a person of colour you would know this, and know how ridiculous your argument is.
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Read up thread. I am a minority, and frequently see and experience racism to some degree in life and in work. I just don't get so worked up about it as many people seem to do, because gone are the days when when it was dangerous to be a minority and I believe by going about life as if all is normal it eventually will be normal. Kicking up a fuss about the serious incidences is necessary, but kicking up a fuss about anything and everything just creates further divide.
 
11101 said:
Read up thread. I am a minority, and frequently see and experience racism to some degree in life and in work. I just don't get so worked up about it as many people seem to do, because gone are the days when when it was dangerous to be a minority and I believe by going about life as if all is normal it eventually will be normal. Kicking up a fuss about the serious incidences is necessary, but kicking up a fuss about anything and everything just creates further divide.
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I actually agree with this. But I imagine it's tricky spotting the dividing line between the two. Especially when young and idealistic.
 
11101 said:
Read up thread. I am a minority, and frequently see and experience racism to some degree in life and in work. I just don't get so worked up about it as many people seem to do, because gone are the days when when it was dangerous to be a minority and I believe by going about life as if all is normal it eventually will be normal. Kicking up a fuss about the serious incidences is necessary, but kicking up a fuss about anything and everything just creates further divide.
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So basically, you wish others would have the same mindset as you. And those who do 'kick up a fuss' (irrespective of the fact that you don't know them, their situation, what levels of racism/prejudice they receive etc) should basically suck it up.
Rather than actually trying to aim to remove the environment which allows racism to continue.

What do you think will change by doing nothing? And how do you qualify what is "serious" and what isn't when it comes to racism?
Why is the onus placed on those who are targeted, and not those who do the targeting?
 
11101 said:
Have a look through the history books if you think modern racism is the Western world is anywhere close to what it once was. We're a million times better now and very few serious incidences of it occur, but you wouldn't think that to listen to some people. There is still some way to go but arguing things like segregating a college group just dilutes the real problems.
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You didn't argue that it wasn't what it once was though. You said there was very little of it and that most "racism" these days was hippy dippy nonsense. All of this in a year where racial tensions have come to the fore as one of the biggest issues in America, perhaps only topped in newsworthiness by the presidential campaign of a candidate who intends to introduce blatantly racist policies.
 
Mockney said:
If you combine all different denominations of "Asian" into one, manageable monthly "Asian", then sure. But then that would be pretty darn racist, really...




Aside from failing to accept how wrong you were about the Berkely demographics (because hey, why should factual accuracy matter when you're making sweeping prejudicial judgements about races!?) you're now saying that a white majority would indeed increase violence, but only by being so irresistibly white and awesome, that the huddled minority masses would inevitably rise up and attack them?...because... Why not



White students wouldn't have to campaign for white spaces, because 99.99% of spaces are white by default. Once again, this is the point. Racism doesn't exist in a vacuum. After centuries of slavery, and a mere 50 odd years of attempted rehabilitation, we can't just handwave ourselves back to default!

The last 300+ years of history has been a long form tale of white people stopping blacks from entering everything!...It's only in the last half century or so that we've even begun to look at it any differently.



Ipso Facto; Racism's done! The Fresh Prince cured it. Well done everyone!
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You do realize that UC schools have quotas which discriminate against white candidates.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/la-oe-mac_donald-2008sep07-story,amp.html?client=safari
 
AllezLesDiables said:
You do realize that UC schools have quotas which discriminate against white candidates.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.latimes.com/la-oe-mac_donald-2008sep07-story,amp.html?client=safari
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I looked at the reference in the LA Times article ("study by Prof. Richard Berk"). Google showed me this: (http://www.senate.ucla.edu/committee/lga/2003/lgaFeb2003/Annual_Rep_CUARS.doc
Berk is mentioned there)
On page 5, the 3rd table, last row: "Under-represented minorities"
Admit rates: 1999 24.1% 2000 23.8% 2001 22.1%
"Overall" admit rates
1999 28.9% 2000 28.9% 2001 28.9%
That is a direct opposite of what the article said ("At UCLA, from 1998 to 2001, black applicants were 3.6 times as likely to be admitted to its undergraduate college as whites, and Latinos 1.8 times as likely, even after controlling for economic status and school ranking, according to an unpublished study by statistician Richard Berk.")

CA residents (strongest link), females, 1st-gen learners and students from poor schools (weakest link) seemed to be the groups with consistently higher admit rates than the average.


Further,
Does the UC system use affirmative action?

No. California schools are bound by Proposition 209, which in 1996 disallowed state public institutions from discriminating on the basis of race, sex or ethnicity. That means the UC system can’t use an individual’s race as a factor when considering his or her application.

Does this mean UC Berkeley might begin an affirmative action policy?

No — the Proposition 209 ban will remain effective despite the Supreme Court decision. In California, an affirmative action program cannot be implemented unless state law is changed. Seven other states have passed similar affirmative action bans.
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Source: http://projects.dailycal.org/affirmative-action/
The 1st graph (admission rates vs year) shows quite neatly what happened once affirmative action was dropped: admit rates for American Indians, blacks and latinos dropped drastically both in absolute and relative (to other groups) terms, whites dropped slightly in absolute terms but rose in relation to minorities, while Asians were the most steady in absolute terms and rose to the top by 2010.
 
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