Cristiano Ronaldo - Performances (wums will be thread banned)

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Balu said:
I'm pretty sure that some people back then would have argued the same way, if people said Müller is better than Cruyff or Pele.

Also:

That's complete nonsense. That myth that Müller was that limited poacher who didn't offer anything but goals is so so sad.
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Did you read this in Kicker as well?

Also try to work out what the actual point was instead of cherry picking one sentence and not taking the whole context. Also look up the word seemed.
 
Stack said:
Did

Did you read this in Kicker as well?

Also try to work out what the actual point was instead of cherry picking one sentence and not taking the whole context. Also look up the word seemed.
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I read your post again and still think my post is spot on. Sorry if you can't see it.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
They had at best 3, maybe 4 players that were considered world class.
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While I really like your post, just a quick addition before I leave this thread again. Let's not underrate the other players in that Bayern side. Obviously Beckenbauer, Müller, Breitner (up until he left in '74 of course) and Maier weren't just worldclass but are all time greats. Additionally I'd add Schwarzenbeck and Roth as worldclass players in their prime. Of course it wasn't a galactico side like we have it today, because teams weren't bought the same way and the team was filled up with solid but still quality role players, but "at best 3, maybe 4 worldclass players" isn't true either.
 
Stack said:
*sighs*
see I got to watch him play, you apparently read about him in kicker.

You however also completely miss the actual point because you have gone into trainspotter mode. The point was to illustrate just how idiotic the belittling of Ronaldo on here actually is. He scored a hat trick last week and one poster referred to it as a deflection, an undeserved penalty and a gift from Bale.
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But you flat out lied and said he didn't assist nor defend which is utter nonsense. Did you live in Germany? How did you watch Muller regularly then because the UK or new zealand didn't have German football on regularly. Watching Gerd in his prime would also put you at about 50+ years. I have watched all their important games and most of his champions league games from 1972 to 1977 so I can give a pretty good argument.

As Balu pointed out and I have said multiple times here, comparing Ronaldo to Messi is like comparing Gerd Muller to Cruijff. Ronaldo is a great goal scorer based on his output.

Also Kicker provided the journalists thay voted for the Ballon D'or for Germany iircc so they had weight in influencing the public perception of good players. That's what the whole world had to go on which is why people still spout the myth that Gerd was a poacher when anyone thay watches him play can quickly see that wasn't the case. You obviously never watched him play because you flat out lied about him to big up Ronaldo.
 
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Balu said:
I read your post again and still think my post is spot on. Sorry if you can't see it.
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Fine, I still think you miss the point and your post is that of a train spotter who cant see the end of his nose.

I will try again another way but I already know this will be misinterpreted and misunderstood or more likely simply twisted to suit an agenda.

Video of Mullers 14 world cup goals.
If these were Ronaldo's goals they would be viewed as mostly ugly, mostly lacking creativity, mostly being lucky to be in the right spot at the right time, mostly opportunistic.
Back then they were viewed as the work of a genius.

 
totaalvoetbal said:
But you flat out lied and said he didn't assist nor defend which is utter nonsense. Did you live in Germany? How did you watch Muller regularly then because the UK or new zealand didn't have German football on regularly. Watching Gerd in his prime would also put you at about 50+ years. I have watched all their important games and most of his champions league games from 1972 to 1977 so I can give a pretty good argument.

As Balu pointed out and I have said multiple times here, comparing Ronaldo to Messi is like comparing Gerd Muller to Cruijff. Ronaldo is a great goal scorer based on his output.

Also Kicker provided the journalists thay voted for the Ballon D'or for Germany iircc so they had weight in influencing the public perception of good players
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Yeah Im over 50, didnt always live in just NZ or the UK, spent time in Germany, Holland, USA, Australia, Finland, France.

Again you have completely missed the point because you are in trainspotter mode and lack the ability to understand context. I absolutely agree with the bit I have bolded. Im pointing out the utter idiocy of those who belittle Ronaldo because he only seems to score goals. Muller scored goals, he didnt score many truely wonderful from mazy dribbles from the middle of the park, he didnt score many from 30 yards out with delicate curled shots. He was in the right place at the right time all the time. Thats the work of genius but so many on here use it as a way to say Ronaldo is less than a great player.
 
Stack said:
Fine, I still think you miss the point and your post is that of a train spotter who cant see the end of his nose.

I will try again another way but I already know this will be misinterpreted and misunderstood or more likely simply twisted to suit an agenda.

Video of Mullers 14 world cup goals.
If these were Ronaldo's goals they would be viewed as mostly ugly, mostly lacking creativity, mostly being lucky to be in the right spot at the right time, mostly opportunistic.
Back then they were viewed as the work of a genius.

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No they weren't because Muller was seen as an ugly footballer so stop lying. Uli Hesse writes about it in his book on Bayern, David winter describes it in his book. My father and uncles also said he wasn't really fancied back then and that he was seen as just a goa scorer because that is how he was promoted by the media.

Tell me how did you watch him live?
 
Stack said:
Yeah Im over 50, didnt always live in just NZ or the UK, spent time in Germany, Holland, USA, Australia, Finland, France.

Again you have completely missed the point because you are in trainspotter mode and lack the ability to understand context. I absolutely agree with the bit I have bolded. Im pointing out the utter idiocy of those who belittle Ronaldo because he only seems to score goals. Muller scored goals, he didnt score many truely wonderful from mazy dribbles from the middle of the park, he didnt score many from 30 yards out with delicate curled shots. He was in the right place at the right time all the time. Thats the work of genius but so many on here use it as a way to say Ronaldo is less than a great player.
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Noone considers Muller a genius though. The same way a lot of people don't consider Ronaldo a genius at least in the context of Messi. There is a reason players like Cruijff, Messi, Pele, Maradona and Di Stefano usually have their own podium.

Ronaldo is a great goal scorer for sure but that's where I draw the line, at least in the last 3 to 4 years.

He will go down as an all time great but he doesn't have that extra that the other aforementioned players had.

People deride Ronaldo in the context of Messi from what I read which is a bit unfair as Messi is on another level. Any other player doing what Ronaldo does would get praised to the high heavens but I guess he rubs people the wrong way so it's hard for objective analysis.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
No they weren't because Muller was seen as an ugly footballer so stop lying. Uli Hesse writes about it in his book on Bayern, David winter describes it in his book. My father and uncles also said he wasn't really fancied back then and that he was seen as just a goa scorer because that is how he was promoted by the media.

Tell me how did you watch him live?
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You keep reading the books.
I saw him in total maybe 10 times, club and internationals.
How many times did you go to a stadium to watch him?
But then all thats doing is diverting from the actual point.

Being a pure goal scorer at the time was seen as praise. Today its used as a way to selectively belittle Ronaldo.

Of course you will ignore that last comment and wander back to train spotting and again completely miss the entire point.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
Noone considers Muller a genius though. The same way a lot of people don't consider Ronaldo a genius at least in the context of Messi. There is a reason players like Cruijff, Messi, Pele, Maradona and Di Stefano usually have their own podium.

Ronaldo is a great goal scorer for sure but that's where I draw the line, at least in the last 3 to 4 years.
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OK I now know you have absolutely no clue at all. Utterly ridiculous . He was an absolute genius.
 
Stack said:
OK I now know you have absolutely no clue at all. Utterly ridiculous . He was an absolute genius.
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Genius in the context of Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Maradona etc

No, noone considered him a genius and he was and seen as an unsightly footballer by the media back then. As I said, perception rarely matches reality as you yourself who claimed to watch him said he didn't assist and didn't defend which was as flat out lie.

Everything is in context. Ronaldo is not a genius if we use Messi as a reference or even a player like Iniesta.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
Genius in the context of Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Maradona etc

No, noone considered him a genius and he was and seen as an unsightly footballer by the media back then. As I said, perception rarely matches reality as you yourself who claimed to watch him said he didn't assist and didn't defend which was as flat out lie.

Everything is in context. Ronaldo is not a genius if we use Messi as a reference or even a player like Iniesta.
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Messi isnt a genius if we use DeGea as a reference and thats precisely the idiocy that goes on in here.
 
Stack said:
OK I now know you have absolutely no clue at all. Utterly ridiculous . He was an absolute genius.
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I've seen over 40+ game and more recently as evidenced by me disproving your lies that all he did was poach and never assist and never defend. So I have seen more of him than you. So you are going on your memory of when you were at best 10+ years old as opposed to the people who were involved with voting the best players at that time. I didn't watch him in the stadium but I have watched more matches of him than you and clearly know more about his abilities than you do evidenced on that lie you spouted that led to this whole debate.

Again in Netherlands Muller is also seen as a tap in merchant because that is how he has been portrayed by the media throughout. You are just lying all the way through here.

Ronaldo is derided because of his attitude. He is a great goal scorer for sure and an all time great. The problem is people analyse him in the context of Messi and only a handful of players in history can match up to him.

Also people are analysing him based on his game from a few years back when he was a dribbler and was more spectacular so I think he is judged in thay context as well.

It's admirable that he changed his game to compensate for his deterioration in his other skill sets. Everything is viewed in context especially when Ronaldo is involved. He is an all time great, noone can take that away from him.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
Genius in the context of Cruijff, Beckenbauer, Maradona etc

No, noone considered him a genius and he was and seen as an unsightly footballer by the media back then. As I said, perception rarely matches reality as you yourself who claimed to watch him said he didn't assist and didn't defend which was as flat out lie.

Everything is in context. Ronaldo is not a genius if we use Messi as a reference or even a player like Iniesta.
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I can do the trainspotter thing too.
Quote for you from a Shoot annual I have from the back then. Just so you know Shoot was the big football publication of the time. 1972. Its a caption to a photograph of Gerd Muller in an article written by Jimmy Armfield (people of my generation will know who he was)

"Germany's genius, Gerd Muller leaves the England defence sprawling"

of course according to you nobody considered him a genius........

too funny
 
Stack said:
Messi isnt a genius if we use DeGea as a reference and thats precisely the idiocy that goes on in here.
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Except De Gea isn't an outfield player and isn't compares to Messi every single turn by almost every single media outlet...

What next, Guardiola isn't a genius when compared to the Bayern Munich kit man?
 
Stack said:
There is a player called Gerd Muller who only scored goals, he didnt assist, didnt play make, didnt create much, didnt defend, didnt seem to do much except score goals. On top of that he only ever seemed to score ugly or easy tap in goals. He was always in the right place at the right time, it wasnt viewed as lucky but viewed asa function of the timing of his runs, his anticipation, his ability to see what was coming. Nobody ever belittled the quality of his game because of it, it was something seen as huge asset, a skill in itself. He is one of the greatest goal scorers of all time. I was lucky enough to see him play and he was a superstar of the time.
He wasnt viewed by some the way that Ronaldo is viewed , (someone who contributes nothing but just goals.) he was viewed as a genius who's contribution was the goals he scored, despite the lack of everything else he didnt contribute.
Wish you and others could have seen him. Your perception of Ronaldo might be a little different. You should look him up some time.
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I know of Gerd Muller and he was quite a beast of a player but unless I'm way off I seem to have the impression that people rated him more as a great goalscorer than as a GOAT player. Finishing and goals are a very important part of football but it's not the be all and end all or during the middle 00s people would have rated Van Nistelrooy on par with Henry for instance or said Lampard is a better player than Scholes because he scores a lot more. My opinion of Ronaldo is he will finish as one of the game's greats and maybe 20 years from now those that aren't given to intensely scrutinizing careers of players will be generous to him because of his goal tally but the fact will remain that he wasn't as dazzling or influential or impressive as a few others whom they will rate higher because of their own subjective criteria for assessing legacies.
 
rollingstoned1 said:
I know of Gerd Muller and he was quite a beast of a player but unless I'm way off I seem to have the impression that people rated him more as a great goalscorer than as a GOAT player. Finishing and goals are a very important part of football but it's not the be all and end all or during the middle 00s people would have rated Van Nistelrooy on par with Henry for instance or said Lampard is a better player than Scholes because he scores a lot more. My opinion of Ronaldo is he will finish as one of the game's greats and maybe 20 years from now those that aren't given to intensely scrutinizing careers of players will be generous to him because of his goal tally but the fact will remain that he wasn't as dazzling or influential or impressive as a few others whom they will rate higher because of their own subjective criteria for assessing legacies.
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I havent been addressing any GOAT angle. The bit that I am addressing is how people will use certain specifics as a method of belittling Ronaldo. I used Muller as an example because he didnt do the expansive dazzling stuff, he scored goals and back then he was thought of as being an absolute hero (unless you were dutch and bitter about his goal in the 74 WC). The fact Muller didnt do anything dazzling in general play wasnt held against him as some sort of negative. The fact he was always in the right place at the right time and was so often able to finish off moves because of it was something that was admired, understood and appreciated. Sadly todays fan seems so blinded by stats, awards, trophies etc that they seem to me to miss key things in the actual playing of the game. Players such as Muller dont end up being in the right place at the right time all the time by pure luck, there is a skill quotient to it. ( I am betting many simply wont understand that one)

Ronaldo scores a ton of goals, not because he is lucky but because its what he is good at. The fact he doesnt provide amazing defence splitting passes doesnt make him a less of a player than someone who does nor does it lessen his contribution.
 
totaalvoetbal said:
Noone considers Muller a genius though. The same way a lot of people don't consider Ronaldo a genius at least in the context of Messi. There is a reason players like Cruijff, Messi, Pele, Maradona and Di Stefano usually have their own podium.

Ronaldo is a great goal scorer for sure but that's where I draw the line, at least in the last 3 to 4 years.

He will go down as an all time great but he doesn't have that extra that the other aforementioned players had.

People deride Ronaldo in the context of Messi from what I read which is a bit unfair as Messi is on another level. Any other player doing what Ronaldo does would get praised to the high heavens but I guess he rubs people the wrong way so it's hard for objective analysis.
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People constantly deride ronaldo vs messi in creativity. But look at the actual stats. Ronaldo has 183 assists in his career. Do you know how many messi the best final pass maker in history has?

217. So Ronaldo has only 34 less assists than messi. Yet he is constantly said to only provide goals. Nope he is the 4th highest assist maker in europe in the last 6 seasons.

It's nonsense if any midfielder was producing those type of numbers in assists they'd be thought to be one of the most creative ever.
 
mancan92 said:
People constantly deride ronaldo vs messi in creativity. But look at the actual stats. Ronaldo has 183 assists in his career. Do you know how many messi the best final pass maker in history has?

217. So Ronaldo has only 34 less assists than messi. Yet he is constantly said to only provide goals. Nope he is the 4th highest assist maker in europe in the last 6 seasons.

It's nonsense if any midfielder was producing those type of numbers in assists they'd be thought to be one of the most creative ever.
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"Look at the stats"

No, dude. Look at the passes. The passes Messi do, Cristiano can't do. Cristiano doesn't have the vision Messi has.
 
IFC 1905 said:
"Look at the stats"

No, dude. Look at the passes. The passes Messi do, Cristiano can't do. Cristiano doesn't have the vision Messi has.
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So Ronaldo scores goals - check. Ronaldo assists goals - check. But he's somehow not an all time great because Messi's passes are prettier. Now I've heard it all.
 
charlton66 said:
So Ronaldo scores goals - check. Ronaldo assists goals - check. But he's somehow not an all time great because Messi's passes are prettier. Now I've heard it all.
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So it all goes into numbers to you. To have the ability to make a 30 yards pass accuratelly is the same than giving it in a one-two against the keeper. The vision & the ability to put the ball where you want doesn't count. It's all the shame, black & white.
 
IFC 1905 said:
To have the ability to make a 30 yards pass accuratelly is the same than giving it in a one-two against the keeper.
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Because every assist Messi gave was a 30 yarder and every assist Ronaldo gave was a 1-2 in front of a keeper. And then you have the audacity to say that you aren't completely biased off your tits when it comes to Argentine players.

Anyway this is a thread for Ronaldo. There's another thread if you wanna continue that daft comparison and there's a thread for Messi if you wanna talk about him.
 
IFC 1905 said:
"Look at the stats"

No, dude. Look at the passes. The passes Messi do, Cristiano can't do. Cristiano doesn't have the vision Messi has.
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You started saying that Cristiano is not among the ten best but at this point this is a comparison against Messi using the beauty of the passes.
So maybe(since their stats are quite close) he shouldn't be so down in your list of best players in history.
 
It's pointless debating whether it's only numbers or not. Fact remains is 30 years from now Ronaldo's stats will show he is one of the Football greats. Maybe he is really a notch below Messi in terms of talent, but who cares? His hard work put him there and that's something to be praised and lauded.

Ronaldo's public image is often unlikeable and that colours opinions. I think some still feel hurt he left for Madrid. Messi is no angel too, but people forget that or ignore those because he has a better image consultant or plays more prettily.

Football is pretty simple at times. You have a player like Ronaldo who can score pretty much with any part of his body, has scored against teams big or small, scored consistently ridiculous quantities over the last decade and is not slouch when it comes to assists as well. I look at Ronaldo and I look at .... Well, Rooney now..... I would take a "declining" Ronaldo in a heartbeat.
 
There's no need to go back to Gérard Muller's era for comparison.

Just remember the 90s and even early 00s. Players like Inzaghi, Romario, Batistuta, etc; were never belittled just because they scored goals. If you don't value that goal instinct that much then what do you make of Bayern's Mulller? he doesn't dribble, he's not very elegant but the fecker gets them in.

I'd have him ahead of any player here in an heartbeat and there's a reason why they never let him go.
 
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When you look Gerd Muller's attributes, he isn't your 'ideal' goalscorer. He isn't that fast, not really tall nor very physical, dribbling isn't his forte, his shot isn't that hard, etc. But he's scored in every stages he's in. As a striker, he's genius.
 
Ronaldo was never a spectacular dribbler or playmaker even in his younger years. His bread & butter is goalscoring.
 
BlueCelery said:
Ronaldo was never a spectacular dribbler or playmaker even in his younger years. His bread & butter is goalscoring.
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He was a spectacular player when he was younger but then he went to England and started changing his game to be a goal scoring, after all doesn't matter if Xavi and Iniesta made Barcelona's midfield the best ever because Messi would have the glory because all his goals. Doesn't matter if you have the best goalkeeper or defender in the world the striker always gets the glory.
 
Aldo said:
Because every assist Messi gave was a 30 yarder and every assist Ronaldo gave was a 1-2 in front of a keeper.
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Sorry, but this is really stupid. Cristiano doesn't have the ability to put 30 yarders with accuracy. Others are proven to have it.

Now if you'll put the numbers here, Cristiano might even be as good as Ozil, Pirlo or Maradona at it. Which is beyond ridiculous. He's a complete striker, maybe the most complete ever, but that's it.
 
Ronaldo once scored with his dick, if that isn't creative then I don't want to live any more.
 
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