Here's a challenge. Read this without feeling homicidal. Bet you can't.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Because of something I said earlier in this thread, some countries like the UK, France or Holland have politicians who wants to hug as much power as they can, for that reason they are against things like a common EU Home secretary.
It is interesting that some other EU nations have protectionist policies regarding immigration, if the UK had adopted something similar I doubt that Brexit would have happened.
I'm surprised that Cameron didn't offer something similar before the referendum.
My favourite part..
I can imagine imports of gollywog badges and blackface fancy dress costumes would indeed skyrocket..
Perhaps a bit controversial but it's articles like that that give me some form of understanding of religious extremism and how innocent people can sympathise with extremists who do terrible things in the name of their values or beliefs.
When you see horrific things like the Charlie Hebdo attacks in France or the Sydney Siege, we instantly condemn the abhorrent acts and obviously rightly so.
If somebody was to blow up the Ritz with Farage, the Barclay Brothers, Lebedev, Desmond, Oakeshott and other repulsive figures in it, I'd find it very difficult to feel anything other than relief at the thought the world will be a better place without them.
I know that's an absolutely awful thing to say, but to me this "alt-right" that is emerging is very much through their self interested bigotry and hate. They're responsible for making a lot of people's lives miserable.
Would you say then that fom means having the ability to apply to live / work in any eu country? Like having to apply to live work in the states
We don't need an interpretation of what freedom of movement means, it's already in place..
Wiki said:
That's obviously a must more open and free system than having to apply to live in the US or other non-EU country.
He didn't because immigration wasn't really a problem for the UK, it was only a good political argument. It's a bit like VAT debates, if the floor sets by the EU was a problem the UK would be on it not several points above it.
But they all have different rules
In effect the uk could negotiate Exit and say yes to fom and not let anyone in, excellent
I realised after I posted it that Cameron probably didn't ever consider losing so he thought there was no need to offer anything like that.
Eastern European migrants are our most cost effective citizens too so you can see why such policies are a waste of time in fiscal terms. Like you say it is only a political argument.
To make it clear, FoM is literally a freedom to move to an other country, it's not a freedom to stay in it. But if you comply to certain rules you are automatically granted some resident's rights.
So no, if the UK say yes to FoM, they can't prevent certain people to move to the UK and they can't prevent them from staying if they comply to the rules.
Out of interest can you link to details on this? All i can find online is that its as per UK rules where it has to be advertised to residents or EEA before you can employ from outside both.
The only movement the UK made to give preferential treatment to local workers was jobs are now advertised for a period by the Job Centre before they go on the EU wide job portal.
You appear to have missed the parts that said..
"Any EU citizen can move to and remain in another EU country for up to three months.
...
Other EU citizens who wish to stay longer than three months must have comprehensive sickness insurance and prove that they have financial resources to support themselves."
@Kentonio, the part about benefits is interesting because according to the EU you have little rights but the UK and Germany are pretty generous, so since most people know nothing about the EU, they assumed that it was because of it that foreigners were entitled to benefits.
I don't normally get emotional about politics but, the way Farage and Trump have scammed two great countries is infuriating. It's infuriating because you can see it from a mile off but you know most people are still falling for it.
Brexit 'can be stopped', says Tony Blair
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/24/brexit-can-stopped-says-tony-blair/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/24/brexit-can-stopped-says-tony-blair/
So it's nothing to do with the EU then. Because both the places you're talking about are in the EU. It's everything to do with our shit national government.
And they're literally laughing at them. In a fecking gold plated room. You couldn't make this shit up.
Yes, this should work. Tony Blair and a slimy Lib Dem leading the charge for 'democracy'.
I really don't understand how those two people in particular are leaders of anti establishment movements.
The Institute for Fiscal Studies says tha the low paid will suffer most over the next decade. Nobody expected that !! Did they ?
This is what I've been saying all along, each country have their own rules, because the UK government can't handle their own affairs, the EU is an easy scapegoat just like the immigrants are a scapegoat, unfortunately there are too many gullible people who swallow all the drivel.
I used to have a document on it at my previous job, see if I have it anywhere.
But they got rid of those Immigrants. So wages will go back to pre mass immigration. That's their theory anyway.
Ah yes. All those highly paid jobs that we'll be able to take over. In hotels, bars, restaurants, Telepizza and agriculture, such as sprout picking. Not to mention hospitals as it only takes 2 weeks to train doctors and nurses. And all this without inflation or automation. And multinationals just dying to throw dosh around.
You make it sound so derogatory to do those type of jobs, i hope you're embarrassed
That's what you took from that post?
Don't forget the mess that this will be for pensions in 20 years time. Almost all Western countries have serious demographic issues combined with an awful pensions situation. With interest rates in the doldrums, and ever-decreasing mortality rates - it isn't looking particularly bright either. Of course, as usual people are very short term. Ironically, the easiest solution to this upcoming pensions and labour force issue is simply by allowing immigration into the working age. (In particular, for low paying and 'unattractive' positions). Watching Britain's pension schemes unravel down the line will certainly be 'interesting'.
Don't be a fool.
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He realises it isn't a country he can bomb, right?
Well if he takes out a different nationality, he could. And he could lead the charge - from behind of course.
How is that hypothetical any different to the present reality as an EU member?
The business head of the Remaih campaign said there would be rise in wages, although he wasn't particularly thrilled at the prospect.
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The Brexit campaign contained 'Wankers of Mass Destruction'.
You answer your question in the second part of your post. I think one of the issues of brexit was that immigration was bringing down wages so when when it is reversed people assumed wages would rise. The report says people will be worse off than now. It's hypothetical of course, things could get better, or even worse. Oil is now over 50$ a barrel, I think, which is someting we have to pay for in $, all the indications are that inflation will rise. I understand that unemployment is at below 5%, how close is that to full employment ? When or if people return to their own countries, what Jobs will they leave for British people and what conditions will be on offer from a Tory government which wants not to put an end to globalisation but to change the conditions ?
There is a perfectly credible case for a second EU referendum, says former PM John Major
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...uk-john-major-comment-pm-latest-a7438266.html
What is it with these retro politicians.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...uk-john-major-comment-pm-latest-a7438266.html
What is it with these retro politicians.
Salaries and the UK standard of living would have gone up if Boris/Davis cherry picking plan worked. The UK would have the best of both worlds ie unrestricted access to Europe's market and money without any real competition for jobs by European people.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem possible, as the EU is determined not to allow any cherry picking. That means that the UK will probably be able to control EU immigration but will lose the unrestricted access to the EU market. Tariffs will be forced across all the board and factories/business might have to leave the EU and pitch camp in mainland Europe. That will translate in lack of jobs in the UK, which means more competition to jobs which means lower salaries.
Unfortunately that doesn't seem possible, as the EU is determined not to allow any cherry picking. That means that the UK will probably be able to control EU immigration but will lose the unrestricted access to the EU market. Tariffs will be forced across all the board and factories/business might have to leave the EU and pitch camp in mainland Europe. That will translate in lack of jobs in the UK, which means more competition to jobs which means lower salaries.
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Mr Brexit himself said that he would push for a second referendum if the vote is close. Well the vote is close
Blair and Major need to stay quite, they are unpopular personalties who don't have the credibility anymore to speak to the matter. The remain supporters really have lacked credible personalties during the whole thing and those two don't help.
From my perspective, like @Stanley Road I'm a British citizen living abroad, in the Basque region of Spain so am one of those significantly impacted with this decision. The unfortunate reality is the absolute nonsense that gets printed in the popular media in the UK is what drives elections nowadays.
Having lived here for over 5 years it is interesting to see what a warped view the British and the Spanish have of each other. The British believe in general the Spanish are a bunch of fat waiters with everything happening mañana. The Spanish believe in general the British are a bunch of uncultured drunken football hooligans who live on an island divorced from reality.
Neither is true, but the strength of the media (in particular the Mail and the Sun) is able to push people to believing one extreme or the other. What I can say is that Spain is a greatly divided nation, with areas of high unemployment and other areas of great economic strength. Where I live near Bilbao is one of the industrial, financial and agricultural pillars of the country with the average wage equivalent to in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_lists_of_Spanish_autonomous_communities#By_economy
Problem is most British have this image that Spain don't produce anything and live purely of tourism, but that conveniently forgets the many enormous Spanish companies (some of whom have a presence in the UK) like Santander, Inditex (Zara), Telefonica and the biggest Co-operative in world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation). Most British people go to Benidorm or Malaga and that is the extent of what they see. Unsurprisingly whilst they are there they get served by a local waiter.
Lets take Zara for example, they have 68 stores in the UK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zara_(retailer)) I bet many of them employ Spanish nationals as well as British nationals. This is classified as "immigration". The amount that Zara contributes to the UK economy in terms of taxes both in VAT and employment taxes is significant. But of course, all Spanish are waiters.
In terms of the problems, the unemployment is indeed high, in particular amongst young people. What is staggering though is that if the UK had 40% youth unemployment there would be riots on the streets, high levels of crime and a complete breakdown of social and political structures. Here families are very close and those people still live with their parents so crime remains low. In the UK when you turn 18 parents kick you out the door.
As for the UK, the UK has improved immeasurably over the last 30 years in so many aspects due to integration with Europe. The food for example, in the early 90s was absolutely appalling. People typically cooking with lard, canned goods etc. It was hard to even find olive oil. Since then the influence of european production has had a significant impact in improving that aspect, things that now people take for granted.
There has been a significant improvement in the quality of living and the standard of living, but people only see the negatives without seeing all of the positives that Europe brought to the UK. It is sad to see all of this unravel based on a campaign founded on untruths, it does seem that the country is going backwards. I hope gaining control of the borders for immigration from Europe is worth the economic impact that is coming to the country, what is clear is that it isn't going to pretty and the only ones who are going to better off are the ones who are already well off in the first place.
From my perspective, like @Stanley Road I'm a British citizen living abroad, in the Basque region of Spain so am one of those significantly impacted with this decision. The unfortunate reality is the absolute nonsense that gets printed in the popular media in the UK is what drives elections nowadays.
Having lived here for over 5 years it is interesting to see what a warped view the British and the Spanish have of each other. The British believe in general the Spanish are a bunch of fat waiters with everything happening mañana. The Spanish believe in general the British are a bunch of uncultured drunken football hooligans who live on an island divorced from reality.
Neither is true, but the strength of the media (in particular the Mail and the Sun) is able to push people to believing one extreme or the other. What I can say is that Spain is a greatly divided nation, with areas of high unemployment and other areas of great economic strength. Where I live near Bilbao is one of the industrial, financial and agricultural pillars of the country with the average wage equivalent to in Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked_lists_of_Spanish_autonomous_communities#By_economy
Problem is most British have this image that Spain don't produce anything and live purely of tourism, but that conveniently forgets the many enormous Spanish companies (some of whom have a presence in the UK) like Santander, Inditex (Zara), Telefonica and the biggest Co-operative in world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation). Most British people go to Benidorm or Malaga and that is the extent of what they see. Unsurprisingly whilst they are there they get served by a local waiter.
Lets take Zara for example, they have 68 stores in the UK (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zara_(retailer)) I bet many of them employ Spanish nationals as well as British nationals. This is classified as "immigration". The amount that Zara contributes to the UK economy in terms of taxes both in VAT and employment taxes is significant. But of course, all Spanish are waiters.
In terms of the problems, the unemployment is indeed high, in particular amongst young people. What is staggering though is that if the UK had 40% youth unemployment there would be riots on the streets, high levels of crime and a complete breakdown of social and political structures. Here families are very close and those people still live with their parents so crime remains low. In the UK when you turn 18 parents kick you out the door.
As for the UK, the UK has improved immeasurably over the last 30 years in so many aspects due to integration with Europe. The food for example, in the early 90s was absolutely appalling. People typically cooking with lard, canned goods etc. It was hard to even find olive oil. Since then the influence of european production has had a significant impact in improving that aspect, things that now people take for granted.
There has been a significant improvement in the quality of living and the standard of living, but people only see the negatives without seeing all of the positives that Europe brought to the UK. It is sad to see all of this unravel based on a campaign founded on untruths, it does seem that the country is going backwards. I hope gaining control of the borders for immigration from Europe is worth the economic impact that is coming to the country, what is clear is that it isn't going to pretty and the only ones who are going to better off are the ones who are already well off in the first place.
Having read through some of the OBR's report, it would seem that their assumptions regarding immigration are mostly guesswork. They also referred to a prediction where net inward migration declines by 100,000 a year on from the vote. Of course as David Gauke admitted on QT last night, the Treasury's own report was predicated on the UK making bad decisions after the referendum. This tells you much about No 11's integrity, and that of once trusted sources like the FT.
You star off by criticising what you perceive as a tendency toward inaccurate generalisations, and then proceed to do just hat throughout the remainder of your post.
You are quite right about Blair and Major though. Indeed the latter suggested that Brexit was akin to North Korea during the campaign.
You star off by criticising what you perceive as a tendency toward inaccurate generalisations, and then proceed to do just hat throughout the remainder of your post.
You are quite right about Blair and Major though. Indeed the latter suggested that Brexit was akin to North Korea during the campaign.
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