Fidel Castro dies aged 90

Castro also sent Cuban troops to fight Israel (just a small number) and to take part in the various wars that plagued Africa from the 60's to the 80's. Tried to help set up a number of regimes that would be loyal to his soviet masters. Seemed helping to try to build an empire through conquest was right up his alley.

This is a strange point to make.

Cuba's stance regarding foreign policy was always intended to act as a buffer to Western/Neocon imperialism. So its hardly any surprise they were on the opposite end regarding Israel and Western-backed African despots. It doesn't mean they had imperial aspirations.

Ask yourself, how many countries has Cuba helped overthrow since 1952, and compare that to the US and its allies.
 
Its a little hard to gauge the potential of the post-Batitsta government when the US slapped pretty crippling sanctions on Cuba the moment it had the audacity to overthrow its brutal dictator. Yet despite that handicap they still managed to cultivate a pretty stellar healthcare service for all Cubans as well as achieve literacy rate almost unrivalled across the globe. To the extent a child is more likely to die at birth in the US than in Cuba, and less likely to be given health coverage (economic status depending, which is not an issue in Cuba).

I'm not absolving Castro's Cuba of Human Rights offenses and other atrocities that may have occurred, but its objectively a better country for all Cubans than it was under the US-backed Batista regime (which btw had its own impressive torture portfolio).
Many dictators have done good things for their country. They have also done terrible things to the human beings in their country that overshadow the good that they did. Castro falls into that camp.
 
This is a strange point to make.

Cuba's stance regarding foreign policy was always intended to act as a buffer to Western/Neocon imperialism. So its hardly any surprise they were on the opposite end regarding Israel and Western-backed African despots. It doesn't mean they had imperial aspirations.

Ask yourself, how many countries has Cuba helped overthrow since 1952, and compare that to the US and its allies.
Have I said anything here to indicate I believe the U.S. actions were right? So what is the point of bringing them up?


All you really need to do is look at history to know the Soviets and their allies were not trying to do anything different from what other colonial/imperialist powers had done. One mans freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and all that.

And you do know saying "oh well some one else has done those things to" does not make doing those things right?

As I said I fully understand criticism of the U.S. and it's actions. Just seems strange to turn a blind eye to the same actions when they are done by others.
 
Built the autobahn to didn't he?
A good bit of it... Enough that it was Ike's model for the US Interstate System

Made the link between smoking and cancer and worked to ban it, along with many other carcinogenic substances like asbestos. Cleaned water of lead and Mercury. Encouraged women to get regular breast cancer screenings.
 
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Have I said anything here to indicate I believe the U.S. actions were right? So what is the point of bringing them up?


All you really need to do is look at history to know the Soviets and their allies were not trying to do anything different from what other colonial/imperialist powers had done.
One mans freedom fighter is another man's terrorist and all that.

And you do know saying "oh well some one else has done those things to" does not make doing those things right?

As I said I fully understand criticism of the U.S. and it's actions. Just seems strange to turn a blind eye to the same actions when they are done by others.

You're absolutely right, which makes Cuba's foreign policy stance all the more understandable. We've lost count of how many times the US had attempted to overthrow and assassinate Castro, nevermind the crippling sanctions they've forced on Cuba. So it makes sense from a survival prospect that the Cubans would veer closer to the Soviet Union, hence mirroring their own foreign policy. Were it not for their stewardship to the Soviet Union, they wouldn't have lasted and would have probably gone the way of Chile or Nicaragua.

Also, and this is probably a topic for another thread, I don't think you can compare US and Soviet foreign excursions, one side clearly had more of a interventionist fetish than their counterpart ever did.
 
Allowing Khrushchev to try to establish nuclear weapons sites on Cuba probably didn't help Castro's relationship with the US much...
 
Allowing Khrushchev to try to establish nuclear weapons sites on Cuba probably didn't help Castro's relationship with the US much...

Well, it could have been a bit different if Eisenhower didn't stand him up or try to kill him....
 
Allowing Khrushchev to try to establish nuclear weapons sites on Cuba probably didn't help Castro's relationship with the US much...

The relationship was never there to begin with. I think the Cubans gave up trying to salvage any means of friendly diplomacy with the US after the latter's failed Bay of Pigs invasion a year before the missile crisis. I'm sure they would have welcomed the deterrent too.
 
USSR expanionism would be at the expense of American foreign exceptionalism, so a no-brainer there for Castro.
You can easily flip that in regards to the US and its allies... Which is the point @JustAFan was making isn't it?

Cuba and the USSR are guilty of the same Cold War policies that people criticize the US and its allies for.
 
I'm sure it had nothing to do with helping the USSR's expansionist (imperialist) goals

No...It didnt.... Soveit had no interest in Castro, many higher ups didnt even know who he was during/after the revolution. Many infact thought he was setup by CIA.

Only after US denied him any form of recognition of his governance, did Soviet union come into picture....
 
You can easily flip that in regards to the US and its allies... Which is the point @JustAFan was making isn't it?

Cuba and the USSR are guilty of the same Cold War policies that people criticize the US and its allies for.

You could, but there's also a great degree of false equivalence there. You can't really compare the scale of intervenionsm between the US and USSR since the end of WWII.
 
It is interesting that on indexes of national happiness Cuba tends to rank higher than the USA and U.K. for example

They probably didn't poll firing squad victims, political prisoners, people that had their property nationalized by the government, or expats who can actually speak their mind without fear of retribution.
 
They probably didn't poll firing squad victims, political prisoners, people that had their property nationalized by the government, or expats who can actually speak their mind without fear of retribution.

Ahh yes, the 1 percenters formerly of Miramar who threw their toys out of the pram when their lavish lifestyles sanctioned by Batista had come to an end.
 
They probably didn't poll firing squad victims, political prisoners, people that had their property nationalized by the government, or expats who can actually speak their mind without fear of retribution.
Yeah I'm gonna say they were under-represented in the polling sample.
 
Ahh yes, the 1 percenters formerly of Miramar who threw their toys out of the pram when their lavish lifestyles sanctioned by Batista had come to an end.

So you condone firing squads and political prisoners then ? You're quite the spokesman for socialism.
 
No...It didnt.... Soveit had no interest in Castro, many higher ups didnt even know who he was during/after the revolution. Many infact thought he was setup by CIA.

Only after US denied him any form of recognition of his governance, did Soviet union come into picture....
They'd established diplomatic relations in 1960. The missile crisis was 1962...
 
So you condone firing squads and political prisoners then ? You're quite the spokesman for socialism.

I don't, but I'm not going to take the word of former Cuban 1 percenters living in Miami.

Reminds me of the Iraqi elite who had it good under Saddam, now living in the UAE and Saudi Arabia longing for the good ol days.
 
I don't, but I'm not going to take the word of former Cuban 1 percenters living in Miami.

Reminds me of the Iraqi elite who had it good under Saddam, now living in the UAE and Saudi Arabia longing for the good ol days.

Castro was charismatic and brought people health care.

 
Well if little Marco says so :lol:

Where else are you going to get opinions of Cubans other than expats these days. And by that I mean the not at gun point or under surveillance of secret police variety.
 
They'd established diplomatic relations in 1960. The missile crisis was 1962...

Whats your source on that?.

Even if it's right, which I don't think so, Eisenhower snubbed him way before that in 1959 and had placed embargo on cuba.

Soviet- Cuba relations only strengthened after the Bay of pigs invasion (1961). As I said, before that, KGB had no idea on him and they thought he was a US Puppet.
 
People who escape Cuba and other similar situations tend to have a greater appreciation for freedom. And besides, you know there's little valor and morality to Castro's Cuba when his own daughter needed a wig and disguise to escape her own Dad's utopian paradise.

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-12-23/news/mn-4825_1_cuban-dictator-fidel-castro-s-daughter

I'm not trying to pain Castro's Cuba as some new-world Utopia. I accept there were some unpleasant things sanctioned under his regime, as is the case with pretty much every Latin American state in the last 60 or so years, US-friendly or otherwise.

I'm looking at this objectively from a quality of life perspective. I don't care about some rich Cubans in Miami crying crocodile tears over freedom when themselves or their parents enjoyed the lavish lifestyles they had under the Batista regime, which arguably put Castro's torture squads to shame. Though I do care about the poor and ordinary who have since enjoyed stellar free healthcare and education their parents or grandparents could only dream of having. That's something many poor Americans would likely never enjoy.
 
I'm not trying to pain Castro's Cuba as some new-world Utopia. I accept there were some unpleasant things sanctioned under his regime, as is the case with pretty much every Latin American state in the last 60 or so years, US-friendly or otherwise.

I'm looking at this objectively from a quality of life perspective. I don't care about some rich Cubans in Miami crying crocodile tears over freedom when themselves or their parents enjoyed the lavish lifestyles they had under the Batista regime, which arguably put Castro's torture squads to shame. Though I do care about the poor and ordinary who have since enjoyed stellar free healthcare and education their parents or grandparents could only dream of having. That's something many poor Americans would likely never enjoy.

So in essence you admit that Castro wasn't all that after all. Progress.
 
He'll be criticised more than is justifiable by large parts of the right. He'll be praised more than is justifiable by large parts of the left.

More interestingly, to me anyway, I think he may be the last of his kind, to such an extent, in that regard.
 
As a proud leftie, I cant think of anything more damaging to the left wing movement than to suggest, in any way whatsoever, that Cuba was socialism working well. We can't let people think the murder & oppression of tens of thousands of political opponents, trade union leaders and gay people is a price worth paying for a decent NHS or school system.