Here's a cool trick - Change the topic to a discussion of the Iraq War so Putin's actions are no longer front and center in this thread.
Russia's at it again
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
Didn't George Bush get advised by Powell to invade Iraq days after 9/11?
I don't think we'll even know the real rational. Something something Saudi Arabia
Unless you think the US government is run by total idiots, they should have known what would be the likely consequences of their criminal actions.
And what is your take, then? It doesn't matter that we've done as long as we had noble intentions? So Putin's bloodless takeover of Crimea is worse than a bloody mess in Iraq or Libya because NATO, unlike Russia, had good intentions?
If we're taking a moral stance then yes, like I said, intent is everything. That is exactly my point. If you knowingly break the speed limit and run someone over, you are absolutely a worse person than someone who doesn't break the speed limit and takes out a whole family*.
*This is a fecking analogy, FAO any petrol-heads who think speed limits don't actually save lives and are basically an infringement on their rights
No, the trick is to blame Putin for everything that you're unhappy about. Like when your presidential candidate loses the election.
Hey we were blaming him well before the election took place. Its just that now the world knows what a manipulative loser he is.
But according to you, his candidate won. So who's the loser?
Completely agree. The entire Soviet/Russian experience has been built on a never ending orgy of propaganda and lies, so it wouldn't be particularly surprising if your point was lost on its audience.
Debatable after 4-8 years of President Shortfingers and SoS Exxon.
Well we are still in the middle of the story. I'd imagine the real losers will be the less powerful state who may find themselves on the wrong end of retaliatory measures.
But how do you know what the politicians' true intentions are? You simply believe what you want to believe.
BravoYou've been talking about Russia crumbling under sanctions for years now. Now it's time for "retaliatory measures". I'afraid to ask, what's the next stage will be called? I have an idea, how about "extreme vengeance activities"?
You do have to admit Sanctions have been tough for the Mafia State. I'd imagine Trump and Putin will fall out at some point over something innocuous, which is when it may become evident that attempting to install a puppet doesn't always yield the desired result.
Things are fine at the Mafia State, thanks for asking. The inflation is no picnic, but the Russians lived through much harder times than these. The approval rating for Putin is still going strong. The embargo from the EU actually allowed the local agricultural corporations to massively increase their production, and they pray for the sanctions to hold while the European business is applying pressure on their own governments to remove the sanctions and allow them back into the Russian market. The next French president (Fillon or Le Pen) will be much friendlier towards Russia than this puppet Hollande. The presidential elections in Moldova and Bulgaria brought to power people that used pro-Russian populism as a way of getting elected. The tide is turning in Europe and not only there. Putin is currently visting Japan and is discussing with Abe the possible ways of resolving the Kuril islands issue and that could lead to a much closer relationship between the two countries. Things are getting better, I must say.
How are things at your end? Seen any good elections lately?
How are things at your end? Seen any good elections lately?
Possibly...but I suspect Putin will do everything he can in regards to keeping Trump onside and playing him like a fiddle.
I'm forecasting a bromance for the ages.
I'm sure he will, especially if Trump has business interests or debt in Russia, which are invisible at the moment because he hasn't released his taxes. But he will also be under immense pressure from both the GOP and Dems to take action against the hacks, assuming Obama himself does nothing (which I doubt).
Obama's interview is very good. It's hard to evaluate his presidency, but I think he'll be remembered as a consummate statesman (in the face of obstructionism). Will probably achieve JFK levels of adoration in years to come.
Has a valid point about the GOP, too. The most anti Russian party in the world suddenly embracing the most authoritarian leader that country has had since at least before Gorbachev.
They blamed it on the FBI, then on the electorate, then on Putin.. It's embarrassing.
All three of which are inextricably intertwined.
Saddam Hussein might have been a monster, but the Iraq invasion has had catastrophic consequences, destabilized the Middle East and North Africa and caused untold amounts of humanitarian suffering to millions & millions of innocent civilians.
But, that isn't the point of my argument. The point is that we have to take the Russian's actions into perspective, despite how wrong their actions might be. For example, you can also be rest assured that the US meddles with internal Russian affairs by way of illegal means. The difference being that the Americans do it in ways which are far more sophisticated and subtle.
So as long as you can point the finger at someone else for something Russia does not have to be held accountable for what it does. I guess perspective is important, after all the Bush doctrine has resulted in a large amount of deaths, but hey Mao was responsible for over 40million deaths so let's keep things in perspective and we see old Bushie was not so bad after all.
Lol wut?
Why do some people insist on twisting and turning my argument? I'm not defending Russian skullduggery, far from it. I'm just pointing out that it's not only Russians who are "at it again". My arguments are all part & parcel of encouraging people to make well informed balanced and objective opinions. Nothing is black & white. This isn't Mordor, it's far more complicated than just good against evil.
The Russians feel threatened by the West. The West has gained a great deal of influence in Eastern Europe in particular and Russia influence has been dwindling at the same time. The Russians are trying to counter act this by destabilizing the West. This is not an excuse to condone Russia's behaviour, it's an honest observation for the reasons why. You can imagine if the foot was on the other shoe the US or any other super power would do exactly the same, be it probably in a more sophisticated manner than the seemingly maffia like Russian government seems able to.
The Russians feel threatened by the West. The West has gained a great deal of influence in Eastern Europe in particular and Russia influence has been dwindling at the same time. The Russians are trying to counter act this by destabilizing the West. This is not an excuse to condone Russia's behaviour, it's an honest observation for the reasons why. You can imagine if the foot was on the other shoe the US or any other super power would do exactly the same, be it probably in a more sophisticated manner than the seemingly maffia like Russian government seems able to.
The absolute irony of the USA accusing another country of interfering in foreign elections. Hilarious.
Can somebody please, in short and clear points, tell me what is Russia exactly accused of? What did they do exactly (concerning the elections)?
Why did US export over 100 billion dollars worth of weapons to a country with one of the worst human rights records under the past 8 years? Weapons that are used to bomb civilians in Yemen and who knows what else in the future.
is this fake news still doing the rounds on here?
This place is really is an echo chamber.
This place is really is an echo chamber.
Not really...the anti-Trump and anti-Russians posters are in the majority, yes, but there's been a fair few voices either arguing for Trump or for Russia. Dissenting views aren't being silenced.
I might be a cnut for this but I can't get arsed about Russia interfering in American elections when the US has been doing this for decades too. Both countries are guilty so I refuse to criticise only one of the 2 for it.
I think when all is said and done, you have to give some credit to Russia. You can't flex your muscles with munitions any more, if the superpowers of the world actually came to blows it would be game over for everyone.
They've recognised that the new war zone is digital. By possessing the most powerful digital weapons you can influence politics world wide, you can boost your own economy and damage rivals by stealing intellectual property and you can provoke fear and chaos with carefully constructed narratives.
I think we've just entered a new era and it's going to be a very difficult issue to overcome.
Similarly to how Bush used fear of terrorism to push through laws that broke basic human rights and May has just pushed through the snoopers charter, I expect at some point a controversial law to come about where western governments have some form of control over the press in the interest of filtering out damaging fake news articles.
They've recognised that the new war zone is digital. By possessing the most powerful digital weapons you can influence politics world wide, you can boost your own economy and damage rivals by stealing intellectual property and you can provoke fear and chaos with carefully constructed narratives.
I think we've just entered a new era and it's going to be a very difficult issue to overcome.
Similarly to how Bush used fear of terrorism to push through laws that broke basic human rights and May has just pushed through the snoopers charter, I expect at some point a controversial law to come about where western governments have some form of control over the press in the interest of filtering out damaging fake news articles.
Agree with everything, but one point worth remembering - leaks aren't 'Fake News'. Genuine leaks are just facts, it's up to the public to decide whether they're news or not.
The way to fix this, and the only way for governments to 'win' in the long term is to actually concede that they need to become more transparent regarding their own people. And they need to fly straight, as they fecking well should.
At present, footballers and mindless celebrities are scrutinized more than the people we allow to govern over us, and it isn't healthy, for us or them.
It's hilarious that people have been so easily coaxed into focusing solely on 'the Russians', rather than the content that 'the Russians' (or whoever) actually leaked, it's crazy.
"Hey, mate, here's a text from your missus to another bloke", 'hey baby, this affair is great, I love the sex we have behind my husband's back'
"...hang on a minute, did you go in my missus' bag to get that text!? You bastard!"
One might presume that the text is being willfully ignored, because it's a much bigger problem to admit we've got than simply blaming the guy who showed it to us.
Fair point.