Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Adebesi]

She's actually attempting to honour the vote, you mean. And is also respecting the constraints of the EU's orthodoxy on key issues.

The City isn't going to disappear, although there will be uncertainty and some job losses. There is more at stake here than the financial sector, however, and Brexit represent just the opportunity for a broader restructuring of the national economy. Years down the line, people will look back and laugh and the contentment we had with the status quo.

ALways find it entertaining when Brexiters try to spin the decline of London as a financial centre as a desirable rebalancing of the economy. The preferable way to do that would of course be to boost other sectors, not decimate the most successful one we have.

 

[jackofalltrades]

So you agree this is a failure of Government and not migration?

Yes, that was the point of my original post about the MIF. What I wanted to say was that migration can cause problems but it's the government's responsibilty to deal with these, which Labour did badly but the Tories did worse.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Goes back to another of @DomesticTadpole's questions about what happens when Trump is kicked out of office after his first term, or even sooner if he is called out for the shameless looting of the country that is surely coming?

The thing is we have to remember the UK is not going through this in isolation, everything is changing so fast. Who knows what will be happening with the EU in 12 months after votes in France, Italy, the Netherlands and elsewhere. Another US President might be more pro EU but he wont be able to turn back time, and it is hard to envisage (but not impossible) this person being outright hostile to the UK. I think the US, with or without Trump, will always urge all sides to be constructive.

I think Brexit has looked a lot like Trump for some time now, that's why the two get conflated so often.

Yeah, agreed. The whole world has been plunged into uncertainty and the goal posts seem to be moving all the time. Brexit and Trump are both a huge part of this and, as people keep saying, there are similar motivations behind a big chunk of both electorates. Desperate people who would take literally anything over a continuation of the status quo. I have a lot of sympathy with that but I think history will look upon this chain of events as a tragedy. Wealthy countries with excellent standards of living accelerating their demise because hucksters took advantage of people who thought they had nothing to lose. I suspect they'll find out they had a lot more to lose than they thought...

 

[jackofalltrades]

"Where there is discord, may we bring harmony." St Francis, Thatcher and now May

 

[Adebesi]

Yeah, agreed. The whole world has been plunged into uncertainty and the goal posts seem to be moving all the time. Brexit and Trump are both a huge part of this and, as people keep saying, there are similar motivations behind a big chunk of both electorates. Desperate people who would take literally anything over a continuation of the status quo. I have a lot of sympathy with that but I think history will look upon this chain of events as a tragedy. Wealthy countries with excellent standards of living accelerating their demise because hucksters took advantage of people who thought they had nothing to lose. I suspect they'll find out they had a lot more to lose than they thought...

Couldnt agree more. But obviously hope Im wrong and in 10 years we look back and think how great it was that we left the EU and forced the institution to modernise and improve itself.

 

[berbatrick]

I think she is taking the only possible option she has: a tax war if the EU tries to hold its ground on rules.

 

[MTF]

Despite Trump's buddying up with oikes like Farage and Gove I could not imagine a worse time in history to be aligning your future prosperity with the US, seeing as its going to be run by someone who is so clearly incompetent as a leader.

And also so inclined to treat relationships on a purely transactional, and not constructive basis.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Couldnt agree more. But obviously hope Im wrong and in 10 years we look back and think how great it was that we left the EU and forced the institution to modernise and improve itself.

Wonder what will happen if other countries decide to leave the EU? Not sure it will happen until they see what impact it has on us. If things go well it might make a few others take the plunge. If it is a disaster then the EU will be stronger.

 

[Adebesi]

Wonder what will happen if other countries decide to leave the EU? Not sure it will happen until they see what impact it has on us. If things go well it might make a few others take the plunge. If it is a disaster then the EU will be stronger.

I dont think things will develop as "rationally" as that, by which I mean it wont be a case of wait and see, then make an informed decision. It will be populists in other countries whipping up anger about immigrants, about austerity (and then blame wasteful EU), about unemployment etc. What happens with the EU will depend on how successful anti-EU populists are, not informed and reasoned observations about what happens to us. Particularly as it wont wait around to see what happens with us.

I think things will come to a head personally, I dont know if the EU will collapse but it will either have to reform in a big way or else it will. The whole freedom of movement thing is not only an issue here, every time a bomb goes off in Paris it feeds the narrative that Germany has invited terrorists into Europe and nobody can keep tabs on them. So actually, while the UK ultimately left because the EU wouldnt give concessions on free movement, I think the EU will end or at least qualify free movement. Not to keep us in, but to ensure nobody else leaves.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I dont think things will develop as "rationally" as that, by which I mean it wont be a case of wait and see, then make an informed decision. It will be populists in other countries whipping up anger about immigrants, about austerity (and then blame wasteful EU), about unemployment etc. What happens with the EU will depend on how successful anti-EU populists are, not informed and reasoned observations about what happens to us. Particularly as it wont wait around to see what happens with us.

I think things will come to a head personally, I dont know if the EU will collapse but it will either have to reform in a big way or else it will. The whole freedom of movement thing is not only an issue here, every time a bomb goes off in Paris it feeds the narrative that Germany has invited terrorists into Europe and nobody can keep tabs on them. So actually, while the UK ultimately left because the EU wouldnt give concessions on free movement, I think the EU will end or at least qualify free movement. Not to keep us in, but to ensure nobody else leaves.

The freedom of movement has become a problem because the EU has got too big. Although it was likely designed that way to provide loads of cheap labour, which is wrong in itself.

 

[Adebesi]

The freedom of movement has become a problem because the EU has got too big. Although it was likely designed that way to provide loads of cheap labour, which is wrong in itself.

And which country pushed hardest for EU enlargement? Oh yes it was the UK!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The freedom of movement has become a problem because the EU has got too big. Although it was likely designed that way to provide loads of cheap labour, which is wrong in itself.

Not sure how you work that one out.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

And which country pushed hardest for EU enlargement? Oh yes it was the UK!

Yep. How will human rights be affected by leaving? Sorry if you are copping for all the questions?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Not sure how you work that one out.

That you let a lot of countries join with desperate people who want a better life and will work for a pittance and can be exploited in the process.

Although the ones who moan about immigration seem to hitting out at anyone and everyone. The fact that a lot of immigration is from the Commonwealth. Is it the Syrian refugees they don't like. Likely they don't like anyone who isn't English and likely don't like some of them either.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

That you let a lot of countries join with desperate people who want a better life and will work for a pittance and can be exploited in the process.

Basic minimum wage is supposed to prevent that.

The EU have been pushing towards a EU-Wide minimum wage for a while so that debunks the idea that it's all about exploitation.

 

[Stanley Road]

Of course, but we all know beforehand that the EU cannot possibly give in to her and won't

Still have to ask for it. Or should ask for nothing cos nothing is on the table?

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Basic minimum wage is supposed to prevent that.

Supposed to, if employed legally.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Supposed to, if employed legally.

Can't blame the EU there though, more chance of being legally employed if you're an EU citizen in an EU member state.

 

[Adebesi]

Yep. How will human rights be affected by leaving? Sorry if you are copping for all the questions?

That's my biggest concern and its too early to say I think. I was all for remaining anyway, but if we had to leave I would not want to be taken out under a Tory government, especially not one desperate to do anything to mitigate the economic impact of doing so. So as I said earlier, when it comes to a trade deal with the US, it will be either it doesnt happen, or it happens on US terms, which means social protections are out and corporate interests come first. Anything that gets in the way of growth - regulations around worker conditions, the environment, planning permission, whatever - will all be subordinated.

So yeah, I see it as a complete disaster.

 

[Sly]

Hard brexit it is. At least there's some clarification, although UK so called plan looks a bit vague. Really doesn't concern me (worked in UK for a while but rejected to live there permanently because i missed Southern Europeu quality of life) but it brings uncertainty to the lives of plenty of people who i met there (including brits who work for foreign companies). I hope that in the end everything goes as smoothly as possible for both sides (although i'm a bit skeptical).

 

[Jippy]

Evil EU undermining backing our law again.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Yep. How will human rights be affected by leaving? Sorry if you are copping for all the questions?

Very short and simplistic:

You're still in the Council of Europe (not to be confused with the European Council or Council of European Union), which is a completely different institution than the European Union.

European Convention on Human Rights is not really 'related' to the European Union, though shiteloads of people (understandably) mix it all up.

edit: ffs I can;t explain this properly in English, my bad.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Just seen a statement from IBEC. They are not happy with the speech. Not happy at all. I expect similarly pissed off responses from business leaders throughout the EU. Silly cow will be sending her negotiators into a hornets nest.

 

[sammsky1]

Its been fun taking the piss out of the USA and Trump these past weeks.

And then all of a sudden, I watched Theresa May's BrExit speech today and remembered that we in the UK are in even more trouble than the yanks; our politicians are pandering to right wing racists who don't understand that the immigration door bolted along time ago.

I don't think I've had such a load of hypocritical nonsense for a long time: on the one hand proclaiming UK is going to be a global nation and a magnet for international talent but who won't allow immigrants in. Apparently we are going to become a tax haven for the international elite: even though we don't like foreigners anymore.

May and her tory cabinet have had months to work out what they should do and yet they still don't have a clue.

And then our erstwhile British PM even had the temerity to advise the EU how to function when UK left and threaten them for good measure.

Utterly screwed because a load of people did not take the BrExit vote seriously enough.

 

[sammsky1]

Yeah, agreed. The whole world has been plunged into uncertainty and the goal posts seem to be moving all the time. Brexit and Trump are both a huge part of this and, as people keep saying, there are similar motivations behind a big chunk of both electorates. Desperate people who would take literally anything over a continuation of the status quo. I have a lot of sympathy with that but I think history will look upon this chain of events as a tragedy. Wealthy countries with excellent standards of living accelerating their demise because hucksters took advantage of people who thought they had nothing to lose. I suspect they'll find out they had a lot more to lose than they thought...

the most severe example of Self sabotage I've seen in my life so far

 

[Henrik Larsson]

the most severe example of Self sabotage I've seen in my life so far

Over here in the Netherlands the sentiments are roughly the same. I've discussed it with various people, but honestly, nobody seems to have a clue where all the anger comes from, taking into account we're one of those wealthy countries with excellent standards of living.

Frustration I could understand, and as a matter of fact many valid points of criticism towards the institute 'European Union' can and definitely should be made.

But it doesn't really seem to be about valid and constructive criticism, all I hear is incredible anger and despair. And trying to think about it rationally, I have no idea where these extreme emotions come from, with so many people completely refusing to take terrible situations in plenty of countries all over the world into context, refusing to let in any realisation of how far we have come get in the way.

In general I've literally never seen such big groups of people with such incredible feelings of anger in my life, and this obviously translates to the EU discussions.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Still have to ask for it. Or should ask for nothing cos nothing is on the table?

What she said today was for the benefit of the Brexiters, she knows full well that the EU cannot accept this, and when they don't it will be the nasty people from the EU that prevented it, absolving her from blame if and when it all goes wrong. She may as well have asked for the currency reserves of France and Germany, she won't get those either.

There was only two choices really, a full hard brexit or carry on under a similar guise but basically still a member of the EU, she chose the former which really means that she has nothing to bargain with other than EU and UK citizens lives

 

[FC Ronaldo]

 

[Stanley Road]

What she said today was for the benefit of the Brexiters, she knows full well that the EU cannot accept this, and when they don't it will be the nasty people from the EU that prevented it, absolving her from blame if and when it all goes wrong. She may as well have asked for the currency reserves of France and Germany, she won't get those either.

There was only two choices really, a full hard brexit or carry on under a similar guise but basically still a member of the EU, she chose the former which really means that she has nothing to bargain with other than EU and UK citizens lives

Its like you see the eu as some nirvana it isnt, christ on a bike, the world will carry on and so will the uk.

 

[711]

What she said today was for the benefit of the Brexiters, she knows full well that the EU cannot accept this, and when they don't it will be the nasty people from the EU that prevented it, absolving her from blame if and when it all goes wrong. She may as well have asked for the currency reserves of France and Germany, she won't get those either.

There was only two choices really, a full hard brexit or carry on under a similar guise but basically still a member of the EU, she chose the former which really means that she has nothing to bargain with other than EU and UK citizens lives

That's how I've been reading it for a long time now I'm afraid, with a predictable result.

 

[Silva]

Yeah, agreed. The whole world has been plunged into uncertainty and the goal posts seem to be moving all the time. Brexit and Trump are both a huge part of this and, as people keep saying, there are similar motivations behind a big chunk of both electorates. Desperate people who would take literally anything over a continuation of the status quo. I have a lot of sympathy with that but I think history will look upon this chain of events as a tragedy. Wealthy countries with excellent standards of living accelerating their demise because hucksters took advantage of people who thought they had nothing to lose. I suspect they'll find out they had a lot more to lose than they thought...

Ironically, those with the least to lose, young people who would massively benefit from the destruction of the worlds economy and health services and untimely deaths for the old are the ones voting for stability.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Ironically, those with the least to lose, young people who would massively benefit from the destruction of the worlds economy and health services and untimely deaths for the old are the ones voting for stability.

Fairly sure a massive economic melt-down isn't the same thing as an orderly cull of the old and the frail.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Its like you see the eu as some nirvana it isnt, christ on a bike, the world will carry on and so will the uk.

I've said before the EU is not perfect and needs reforms, the UK could have helped with the reforms but all Farage and his mates seemed interested in was to have cheap snipes at the EU on the rare occasions he decided to turn up and the UK has been poorly represented in the EU over the past few years.

The world will carry on, the EU will continue maybe even stronger without the UK, especially if it gets the UK services sector. The UK will carry on as well, but what it will be like is difficult to imagine at this moment

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Over here in the Netherlands the sentiments are roughly the same. I've discussed it with various people, but honestly, nobody seems to have a clue where all the anger comes from, taking into account we're one of those wealthy countries with excellent standards of living.

Frustration I could understand, and as a matter of fact many valid points of criticism towards the institute 'European Union' can and definitely should be made.

But it doesn't really seem to be about valid and constructive criticism, all I hear is incredible anger and despair. And trying to think about it rationally, I have no idea where these extreme emotions come from, with so many people completely refusing to take terrible situations in plenty of countries all over the world into context, refusing to let in any realisation of how far we have come get in the way.

In general I've literally never seen such big groups of people with such incredible feelings of anger in my life, and this obviously translates to the EU discussions.

The anguish does seem massively disproportionate to the reality, I agree. I blame unrealistic aspirations because of lives immersed in social media, ogling the 1%. Not that the disparity of wealth isn't wrong so much as people are forgetting how far things have come from the past and in comparison to living in less wealthy/enlightened countries.

 

[Silva]

Fairly sure a massive economic melt-down isn't the same thing as an orderly cull of the old and the frail.

It would be an inevitable side effect. Suicide rates go up, health funding goes down.

 

[Santi_Mesut_Alexis_87]

I don't get it: May wants the UK to leave the UE single market, but she still wants Great Britain to have some sort of access to European markets, without freedom of movement though. It doesn't work like that. If you are out you are out, not half and half.

 

[Mozza]

That you let a lot of countries join with desperate people who want a better life and will work for a pittance and can be exploited in the process.

Although the ones who moan about immigration seem to hitting out at anyone and everyone. The fact that a lot of immigration is from the Commonwealth. Is it the Syrian refugees they don't like. Likely they don't like anyone who isn't English and likely don't like some of them either.

Freedom of movement has existed from the start, no one could for see Eastern Europe joining after the collapse of the Soviet Union

They don't like Migrants. This country has lost all sense on the topic. When asked whats to blame for the NHS crisis, migration came top

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Freedom of movement has existed from the start, no one could for see Eastern Europe joining after the collapse of the Soviet Union

They don't like Migrants. This country has lost all sense on the topic. When asked whats to blame for the NHS crisis, migration came top

Migrants will always get the blame, when in reality most of the citizens of this country will be descended from migrants/settlers of some sort, Angles, Saxons, Vikings, Romans, Normans the list goes on and on, same with the US.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It would be an inevitable side effect. Suicide rates go up, health funding goes down.

Still not seeing the "massive benefits" of growing up in a society where people are so desperate they're killing themselves, left right and centre.

 

[Red Defence]

I don't get it: May wants the UK to leave the UE single market, but she still wants Great Britain to have some sort of access to European markets, without freedom of movement though. It doesn't work like that. If you are out you are out, not half and half.

You saying that all other countries outside the EU that have access to European markets have freedom of movement as a condition of access?