Lacking a consistent virtuoso matchwinner

Raees

Pythagoras in Boots
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May 16, 2009
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I think it is clear to see that in many ways United have progressed from Moyes and LVG, the build up play is much better, we are defending better, we are controlling games both home and away against majority of sides again, we are creating more chances but something in the final third clearly isn't working.. drawing far too many games and whilst that can be put down to poor finishing, I do feel like when I am watching our rivals especially at home, they look like they're carving out chances with ease whereas we are really having to 'out-football' sides with our passing rather than just tearing them to shreds effortlessly. Which explains why even though we look so superior to some sides, we are winning by close margins rather than big ones.

Some of our build up play, is even better than some of the stuff I saw from Fergie's sides, but with Sir Alex's teams, you knew we would score goals because we had people in the team with matchwinning ability, pace, purpose and could grab a game by the scruff of the neck.. there were characters in the side (Ronaldo, Tevez, Giggs, Rooney, Nani), but I feel this current side is devoid of that matchwinner who can take on players and go score the winning goal in a game.

  • Mkhitaryan, really impressing me now with his dribbling and in many ways he fits that virtuoso mould but he lacks that natural cutting edge, more of a creator than a regular matchwinner
  • Martial, he is the guy who we need to be regularly beating men and scoring goals but has been in and out of the side all season
  • Rashford, steep learning curve this season and I don't think he is ready to be that consistent matchwinner we need, lacks quality
  • Mata, lacks the pace and dribbling threat to really dominate a game and keep opponents on the back foot
  • Lingard, a hard working support player not a match-winner
For all the great wing options we have, none of them are guys we can currently rely on to 9 games out of 10, terrorise the opposition with their running ability and score goals for fun.. and it is the reason why we are not in the top 4. Even Zlatan, he can score goals, but outside of the goals, he is heavily reliant on service and when you compare him to forwards from the other sides, he doesn't have enough about him to make our attack look electric and difficult to keep control of. We have a very static attack which is relatively easy to contain. Only his game against West Brom when he went between two players was a goal where you can say he's destroyed the opposition where they are well set, but his other goals are more target man/poacher style goals.

When I look at Arsenal, their build up play has not been superior to ours, they're a poorer side than us in many respects but Alexis Sanchez is such a big factor in their ability to dominate sides and get themselves on the scoresheet. Liverpool have Firmino, but guys like Coutinho, Mane are a goalscoring threat who can beat men with ease and want to score goals.. for me they still lack one more real big matchwinner out wide like us, but the difference is they need that type of player to become a title winning side, whereas we need one to get us into the top 4 right now. They look scary when they go forwards, Swansea looked nervous as feck yesterday, whereas we try and keep up concerted pressure through passing our way to a goal and no one really has that quality and conviction to disorientate the opposition with a run and put it in the back of the net.

Barcelona have Neymar, Messi and Suarez, Madrid still have Bale, Ronaldo is more Zlatan at this stage but to be fair even without Bale, they have guys like Vasquez, Benzema playing out of their skin so its still working for them, Chelsea have Hazard, but even Costa can produce magic when the odds are against them and do it regularly (underrated dribbler on the ball).

Since Ronaldo left, we haven't had that reliable wizard of a player who we can look to when the chips are down to take on the opposition and change the flow of the game, instead the entire team needs to get it together for us to start fighting our way back into a game.. that is fine but top sides, really do need their matchwinners and I would like to see us have a big player at their peak who can beat players, produce match winning feats on a regular basis and get us off our seats.

Is Martial going to be that player, is Griezmann really have that pace/electricity about his play to be the type of player I am describing? Do you agree that there is an X Factor missing from our side?
 
Agreed, we need that 'Can opener' to borrow a phrase from Fergie. Not necessarily a creative #10 type or a Messi/Ronaldo figure, but someone who can create something when the team is under pressure. Someone who will never shy away from responsibility.

I believe Griezmann fits the bill.
 
@Raees Disagree. Martial, Mhkitaryan, Rashford, Ibrahimovic, Pogba are all match winners, even Mata could probably be considered one.

I think this line of thought is only strengthened when you use Firmino, Mane and Coutinho as yard sticks.
 
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No. We lack synergy, we don't use enough combinations and every player play alone which leads to our team not being greater than the sum of its part, it's not even equal to the sum of its parts.

We have can openers but we are unable to heat the food and put it properly on the table.
 
ivaldo said:
@Raees Disagree. Martial, Mhkitaryan, Rashford, Ibrahimovic, Pogba are all match winners, even Mata could probably be considered one.

I think this line of thought is only strengthened when you use Firmino, Mane and Coutinho as yard sticks.
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JPRouve said:
No. We lack synergy, we don't use enough combinations and every player play alone which leads to our team not being greater than the sum of its part, it's not even equal to the sum of its parts.

We have can openers but we are unable to heat the food and put it properly on the table.
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Maybe my title isn't quite explaining what I mean. Basically what I mean is that in an ideal world, Mkhitaryan and Martial are exactly the type of players I mean but right now, they're not taking that extra step of being like a Sanchez or Hazard if you get what I mean... they're not winning games for us, right now i.e. we need more productivity from them and be more 'star man' than just side act.

Rashford likewise, on paper no reason why he shouldn't go out there and win games himself but it isn't happening for him at the moment.

Pogba and Zlatan, Mata are class but I think they need the team to be dominating possession to play really well, and can surprise the opposition against the odds with moments of quality but they're not the type of players who will keep the opposition on the back foot throughout 90 minutes when the odds are against them.. due to the lack of pace they possess. Whereas guys like Martial/Mkhi, they are the type of guys who even when we're struggling to get on the ball much, even with little possession they should theoretically be able to remain a threat as they can go on a run and take the game to the opposition.
 
It's not as simple as outright buying that player though is it?

Our team lacks composure, we've bought these big players who are the type of people you have described but they are new here too. The players we are most reliant on are players that have come here this season. If you look at other teams who have the same time it is a player that has come in a few seasons ago, into a settled team of players who knew each other's playing styles.

Coutinho, Hazard, Sanchez, Costa, Aguero,KDB and perhaps even Kane/Alli are the type of players you are describing. All of them bar maybe the latter two came into a side that was fairly settled and had the most important thing when becoming a team's go-to-man: TIME. It's not as simple as buying a world class player and expecting them be the 'matchwinner'. They all needed the time to acclimatise the the league and the team, just like we should afford our players.

Our 'best' players have the unfortunate predicament of being in a high pressure climate, where the media give them very little leeway and they're expected to put in World Class performances week in week out without affording them the time to acclimatise to the league, to the players around then and our manager who is ALSO new to the club. Pogba, Zlatan, Martial, Mkhi and perhaps in the future Griezmann/Icardi/Rashford/whoever will become this type of 'matchwinner'. We just need to give them time and patience. Half of our best team have barely played with each other for heaven's sake. Once they start to gel and click we will reap the rewards I am sure. Right now our team has the potential, but time and effort is required to turn potential into quality.

Griezmann, Bale, Suarez didn't become as good as they currently are when they first came to their respective clubs either despite being in already settled teams. Modric too IIRC. They all proved to be quality players, as will ours.

Time and patience is all they need.
 
Martial was a match winner last season, if our manager gets rid of his phobia towards trusting any younger players he could have hit a higher stride this year too.
 
Very good thread Raees!

I have been thinking about almost everything you wrote for a long time. It was a huge disappointment when Pool bought Sadio Mané, we desperately needs a player with his ability to accelerate and outrun defenders.

I don't think Greizmann is that type of player, he's more of a finisher inside the box. But we need him also.

I hope we continue to play 433 but find a replacement for Carrick so we can give Pogba more freedom to attack with less defensive responsibility's.
 
Raees said:
Maybe my title isn't quite explaining what I mean. Basically what I mean is that in an ideal world, Mkhitaryan and Martial are exactly the type of players I mean but right now, they're not taking that extra step of being like a Sanchez or Hazard if you get what I mean... they're not winning games for us, right now i.e. we need more productivity from them and be more 'star man' than just side act.

Rashford likewise, on paper no reason why he shouldn't go out there and win games himself but it isn't happening for him at the moment.

Pogba and Zlatan, Mata are class but I think they need the team to be dominating possession to play really well, and can surprise the opposition against the odds with moments of quality but they're not the type of players who will keep the opposition on the back foot throughout 90 minutes when the odds are against them.. due to the lack of pace they possess. Whereas guys like Martial/Mkhi, they are the type of guys who even when we're struggling to get on the ball much, even with little possession they should theoretically be able to remain a threat as they can go on a run and take the game to the opposition.
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I get what you mean and I think you are wrong. Hazard is winning games this season because the frame of Chelsea is sound and consistent, Conte created that synergy. Last season Hazard wasn't winning games for Chelsea on a consistent basis because the framework of their team was weak. Pedro was a dud and now he isn't.

United already have the individualities, we can obviously improve in that department but our main problem is our lack of collective synergy. That's why Mourinho doesn't have a definite first eleven, we have a roster but we don't have a team. We have difference makers but we lack the consistency in our intensity, in our movements as a team, in our tactical and technical understanding.
 
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Put an Alan shearer or RVN in this team right now and we would be winning every game, what we need is a One chance, One goal type like Eric used to do.
Scoring goals when one is needed is a trait only a handful of players have , I hope we get greizman and he can be our go to guy.
 
Raees said:
Maybe my title isn't quite explaining what I mean. Basically what I mean is that in an ideal world, Mkhitaryan and Martial are exactly the type of players I mean but right now, they're not taking that extra step of being like a Sanchez or Hazard if you get what I mean... they're not winning games for us, right now i.e. we need more productivity from them and be more 'star man' than just side act.

Rashford likewise, on paper no reason why he shouldn't go out there and win games himself but it isn't happening for him at the moment.

Pogba and Zlatan, Mata are class but I think they need the team to be dominating possession to play really well, and can surprise the opposition against the odds with moments of quality but they're not the type of players who will keep the opposition on the back foot throughout 90 minutes when the odds are against them.. due to the lack of pace they possess. Whereas guys like Martial/Mkhi, they are the type of guys who even when we're struggling to get on the ball much, even with little possession they should theoretically be able to remain a threat as they can go on a run and take the game to the opposition.
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It'll come. Let's not forget that all those match winners you mentioned in the OP were playing for us in the 08/09 season. During the vds clean sheet run we failed to score more than 2 goals in 10 of those 14 matches, it also included plenty of 1-0s.

We've only just got going, I'm sure we will become more clinical in the near future.

7even said:
It was a huge disappointment when Pool bought Sadio Mané, we desperately needs a player with his ability to accelerate and outrun defenders.
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We have Mhikitaryan, Martial, Pogba nd Rashford who can all do that.
 
Mal donaghy said:
Put an Alan shearer or RVN in this team right now and we would be winning every game, what we need is a One chance, One goal type like Eric used to do.
Scoring goals when one is needed is a trait only a handful of players have , I hope we get greizman and he can be our go to guy.
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See I think if you put a Ruud into this side, we would face a similar problem to what we have with Zlatan. It wouldn't take our attack to that next level.

Side needs a Cristiano Ronaldo circa 2008, and it would drag this side to titles, top 4 minimum. Martial was being this type of player last year, and if he showed last years form and in this current side.. we'd have been title contenders. His mismanagement or his own lack of progress is what has held this side back from being above what is a very mediocre Arsenal side.
 
This is just an easy excuse. We have Zlatan, Pogba and Mata. These three by themselves were previously match winners for their teams being their best player. Add to that the likes of Martial and Mikhitaryan who you can tell have the ingredients to be match winners.

So this excuse is just lazy analysis. We need better cohesion and understanding along with some consistency. The players we have are good enough to be beating Stoke City.
 
Didn't think Greizmann was that player but he's just smashed an amazing hit from twenty five yards :eek:

Barely knew he was playing then BOOM. Opened the can.
 
I think we have the magic players clearly: Martial, Pogba, Mkhi, Mata etc. They are underperforming because our collective offense is underperforming. That's on Mourinho and it needs time too. At the same time we haven't been that bad offensively. Sure we are not flowing in the final 3rd but we are creating enough to win games. Just not finishing.

You can clearly see the progression though. We have become solid defensively and are controlling and dominating matches home and away. Next step is to improve our play in final 3rd to create clearer chances. It may not come in time for us to finish in top 4 this year.

I don't think the solution is buying more star power.

I also think having Zlatan as focal point is harming our attack because of lack of pace and runs in behind. At the same time he has scored our goals. So not easy to drop him. What I mean is we might flow better offensively if we had Martial, Rashford and Mikhi in the final 3 but our finishing might be worse.
 
Agreed. We lack that one transcendent 'cheat code' player who can both - have an impact on the game in open play, and come up big in matches where the rest of the team is floundering as a talisman of sorts - to convert marginal losses into draws, and draws into outright victories. The last player of that ilk we had was Van Persie 2012/13 - the rest of the team under Fergie was really good, too, but he was the tour de force player who pushed us over the edge several times throughout the season, especially in pivotal moments through the season when the pressure was high. Zlatan's probably the closest thing to him we have right now, but he no longer has Van Persie's overall effect on the game or his penchant for delivering in big matches against big domestic teams through the course of that particular season - RVP scored 5 goals in 6 games vs Liverpool, Arsenal and City, and even rescued matches in the last minute via key set pieces in the death:



We have diminished matchwinners relative to that level (Zlatan and Rooney - to varying degrees), or up-and-comers who often blow hot and cold (Pogba), or players who're still finding consistency (Mkhitaryan), or youngsters who are in and out of the XI (Martial, Rashford), or good but not great players who can sometimes push us over the edge (Mata) - but not that one singular titan at his peak who has the ability to consistently drag us out of trouble again and again à la Hazard or Sánchez, let alone Real and Barcelona's assortment of riches.

Who can be that player? I dunno. Martial is an obvious in-house solution. Pogba can develop into that player, too. In terms of the market - Aubameyang would be a good bet because he's at his dynamic peak. Griezmann is another obvious Müller-esque solution who can win you games without being dynamic like Bale or Neymar - provided we build the team for him to an extent, and give him service like Atlético does because he can't quite beat his man consistently like some of the others. Not a virtuoso per se (just like Müller wasn't - even at his peak), but he's at a good age to be a big part of the future for United. The only major concern from a systemic standpoint is his fit with Pogba, and how you accommodate them both to play in their peak roles and positions.

Speaking of Pogba, his ex-teammate Dybala is another one we should look at - awesome dribbler, has the gift of evading defenders on the ball, takes the responsibility for Juventus instead of shrinking as the match wears on - in terms of both playmaking and finishing chances, and is likely going to be Argentina's prime mover once Messi diminishes in stature, or retires after the World Cup in 2018:



Someone like him who has evidenced the ability to consistently affect and win matches and always wants to take on the responsibility of getting on the ball to create magic, and is coming into his peak could be a game changer for United. Scored 23 goals vs 32 for Griezmann through the course of last season, but played 9 matches lesser than the Frenchman, and is a greater creative presence. Has a competitive, visibly fiery edge about him, too.
 
Did Dybala not say he dreams of Barca and that he dislikes the Premier league teams? Or am I thinking of someone else?
 
We've got match winners, but they're not consistent enough.

On their day, Martial, Ibrahmiovic, Pogba, Mkhitaryan, Rooney, Rashford and Mata can all provide moments of magic to win a game. I think the problem is they're not consistent enough, whereas, your Neymar's, Messi's, Ronaldo's, Bale's, etc, all do it on a consistent bases, which is why they're labelled world class.

From the players I mentioned, I'm hoping Martial can become our Ronaldo/Messi type of player. To me, he has all the physcial attributes to do that. His mental attributes will have to improve if he wants to become a top, top player, though.

Having said all of that, there's no guarantees that Martial, or any of the players I mentioned, will become that player for us, and consistently produce moments of magic when things aren't going well for us.

Thing is, currently, there's no players in that category that are available. People mention Griezmann, but he seriously isn't that player, in my opinion. Yes, if he gets a chance he will most likely score, but he's not the type to take on 2/3 players and put the ball in the back of the net, i.e. Messi/Neymar.
 
Over thinking it...

Most on here wouldnt swap our forwards with Liverpools and yet they score about 20 more goals than us.

We miss too many chances. Its that simple.
 
RedStarUnited said:
Over thinking it...

Most on here wouldnt swap our forwards with Liverpools and yet they score about 20 more goals than us.

We miss too many chances. Its that simple.
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I'd swap Martial, Mata, and Rooney for Firminho, Countiho, and Lallana. I'd throw in Lingard for free, too.
 
JPRouve said:
No. We lack synergy, we don't use enough combinations and every player play alone which leads to our team not being greater than the sum of its part, it's not even equal to the sum of its parts.

We have can openers but we are unable to heat the food and put it properly on the table.
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I think we can heat the food and put it on the table but lack the utensils to carry it to our mouth.

As for chewing and digestion.....
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Who's that? If you are telling me its Rashford, then he got 3 starts so far this season. That's hardly putting his trust in someone, more like plan B.
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Not sure what you are talking about? Hes started 14 games in all comps and made 17 subs apps. That's a lot of trust in an 18/19 year old.

And, in all honesty, he's been very poor in most his starts.
 
Wednesday at Stoke said:
Martial was a match winner last season, if our manager gets rid of his phobia towards trusting any younger players he could have hit a higher stride this year too.
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I totally agree with this. The funny thing is that none of the the young players let us down last season. Not to say that the young players are at the level required but sometimes this virtuosity can come in moments with young players given that confidence once in a while
 
The talent is there. Pogba and Zlatan are as good as their counterparts for our domestic rivals. Miki too, when he is playing. We could do with Martial recapturing last year's form. Rashford is a great sub, which is an important role. It's up to Jose to bring it all out in a coherent style. We do still need a superior goalscorer like Griezmann.
 
JPRouve said:
No. We lack synergy, we don't use enough combinations and every player play alone which leads to our team not being greater than the sum of its part, it's not even equal to the sum of its parts.

We have can openers but we are unable to heat the food and put it properly on the table.
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Agree with this.

I don't think the combination of players always works.
 
Zlatan has shouldered the bulk of the goal-scoring burden; but not enough goals appearing from elsewhere in the forward line. When Zlatan has an off day (as per Stoke away), we struggle to create and finish good chances. Martial or Rashford have yet to step up this season, but have youth on their side. A consistent, proven goal-scorer will be on the summer shopping list.
 
Zlatan has scored 13 goals in his last 15 games. Show me the "match winner" with better stats than that.
 
The only genuine outfield match winner we have is warming the bench every other two matches, so what's the point of complaining about the lack of a match winner? Jose would have misused him if another one was there too.

diarm said:
Zlatan has scored 13 goals in his last 15 games. Show me the "match winner" with better stats than that.
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He is as flat track bully as it comes, he has hardly set the world alight against top 6 teams and missed some glorious chances which cost us plenty of points.

AndyJ1985 said:
I'd swap Martial, Mata, and Rooney for Firminho, Countiho, and Lallana. I'd throw in Lingard for free, too.
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You remind of Remy who posted this about Ronaldo back in 2006. Amazing that you wanna swap the only world class outfield player you have at United with those mediocre LFC forwards.
 
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It's not that we lack a matchwinner, we have one in Zlatan, it's that we lack multiple match winners. These are the main striking combos we have had in the last couple of decades:

RVP, Rooney
Rooney, Hernandez, Berbatov
Ronaldo, Rooney
Ronaldo, Rooney, Tevez
Van Nistelrooy, Rooney
Van Nistelrooy
Yorke, Cole, Sheringham

No surprises to see in the seasons we had 3 we were most successful, and the period where Van Nistelrooy was on his own was our worst.

Zlatan would fit in any of those lineups but he can't be expected to do it all on his own just like Van Nistelrooy couldn't. There will always be games where you just cant score or the defence doubles up on you and so on. You need alternatives. Even if we get Griezmann we still need at least one more 10-15 goal player from somewhere.
 
I'd say its more to do with trying too hard at trying to nullify the opponent as per stoke city, a game in which we played with fellaini for tactical reasons and it didn't work. We have repeated this over and over again this season. All the top teams have a starting 11 regardless of opposition, our manager chooses to outgun the opposition instead of just putting out his best team and as a result the team suffers. I don't mind fellaini coming off the bench but starting him is plain idiotic, it didn't work last year and it doesn't work now. I also don't understand why we take off martial to put rashford on the wing, surely when were chasing the game we should use rashford as a striker alongside Zlatan.
 
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