Bobcat
Full Member


The scary part is though, i think Drumpf is actually insane and desperate enough to stage a false flag terror attack on the US just so he can prove them wrong.
Shocking.
feck feck feck feck feck.
The 9th Circuit’s dangerous and unprecedented use of campaign statements to block presidential policy
By Eugene Kontorovich February 9 at 9:15 PM
The 9th circuit has just upheld a nationwide temporary injunction on President Trump’s executive order relating to refugees and visas from certain countries. I think the court’s opinion is weak in most respects, but I will address one of the most interesting and potentially far-reaching aspects.
Generally, the president has vast discretion in issuing visas. One of the major arguments against the executive order is that while in principle a president can limit immigration from the seven affected countries, it would be unconstitutional for President Trump in particular to do so, because in his case the action is motivated by impermissible religious bias. The central exhibit for this argument is his campaign statements about a “Muslim ban.”
While the 9th Circuit did not address this at great length, focusing instead on due-process arguments, it did accept the basic validity of the form of the states’ argument. “The States’ claims raise serious allegations and present significant constitutional questions,” wrote the court.
There is absolutely no precedent for courts looking to a politician’s statements from before he or she took office, let alone campaign promises, to establish any kind of impermissible motive. The 9th Circuit fairly disingenuously cites several Supreme Court cases that show “that evidence of purpose beyond the face of the challenged law may be considered in evaluating Establishment and Equal Protection Clause claims.” But the cases it mentions do nothing more than look at legislative history — the formal process of adopting the relevant measure. That itself goes too far for textualists, but it provides absolutely no support for looking before the start of the formal deliberations on the measure to the political process of electing its proponents.
A federal appeals court ruled against President Trump's controversial immigration ban that barred refugees and citizens from seven Muslim-majority countries.
Indeed, a brief examination of cases suggests the idea has been too wild to suggest. For example, the 10th Circuit has rejected the use of a district attorney’s campaign statements against certain viewpoints to show that a prosecution he commenced a few days after office was “bad faith or harassment.” As the court explained, even looking at such statements would “chill debate during campaign.” If campaign statements can be policed, the court concluded, it would in short undermine democracy: “the political process for selecting prosecutors should reflect the public’s judgment as to the proper enforcement of the criminal laws.” Phelps v. Hamilton, 59 F.3d 1058, 1068 (10th Cir. 1995).
There are sound policy reasons for ignoring campaign statements or promises to shed light on subsequent official action. For one, campaign promises are often insincere, designed to appeal to voters. Indeed, they are explicitly instrumental, and their goal is not policy outputs, but election. Moreover, implemented laws or policies are often substantially different from promises, as is the case here.
Even the use of legislative/administrative history, in its most expansive form, looks only at the actual process – and not the personal background of the legislators, let alone before they took office. As the 9th Circuit itself put it in a discrimination case, “statements by decisionmakers unrelated to the decisional process itself” do not prove a discriminatory motive.McGinest v. GTE Serv. Corp., 360 F.3d 1103, 1138 (9th Cir. 2004).
The 9th Circuit’s ruling Thursday throws open a huge door to examinations of the entire lives of political officials whose motives may be relevant to legal questions. This introduces more uncertainty and judicial power into legal interpretation than even the most robust use of legislative/administrative history. Without a clear cutoff at assumption of office, attacks on statutes will become deep dives into politicians’ histories.
More broadly, constitutional structure supports examining only executive statements to interpret executive action. When Trump made his most controversial statements, he was private citizen. He had not sworn to uphold the Constitution, or to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. He was, in this sense, a legally differently obligated person. His policies and their relation to the Constitution would presumably be affected by his oath — that is why the Constitution requires it.
Moreover, the Constitution’s oft-forgotten opinion clause supports disregarding pre-inauguration statements. The Constitution puts at the president’s service the officials of the administration and requires they advise him as asked. What it means here is that the president must be seen as the unitary head of the executive branch and the pinnacle of a process of executive decision-making. That process is the only constitutionally recognized executive process. A candidate’s possible plans or promises are not part of the process. The opinion clause also suggests a president cannot be bound by the oral statements of federal officials (like Rudy Guiliani), especially when not “upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices.”
By accepting the use of preelection statements to impeach and limit executive policy, the 9th Circuit is taking a dangerous step. The states’ argument is in essence that Trump is a bigot, and thus his winning presidential campaign in fact impeaches him from exercising key constitutional and statutory powers, such as administering the immigration laws.
This would mean that Trump is automatically disbarred, from the moment of his inauguration, of exercising certain presidential powers, not because of his actions as president, but because of who he is — that is, how he won the presidency.
At oral argument, the judges asked if Trump could ban travel from all majority-Muslim countries. The question should be reversed. If the plaintiffs cast Trump’s views of immigration as impermissible, by this reasoning he cannot take the otherwise clearly legal action of restricting immigration from any of the world’s 50-odd majority-Muslim countries. This would mean that immigration system as created by Congress — which depends on broad executive discretion — will have essentially been destroyed.
Eugene Kontorovich is a professor at Northwestern University School of Law, and an expert on constitutional and international law. He also writes and lectures frequently about the Arab-Israel conflict.
Same here. I expected 2-1 based on the judge appointed by Bush (it was him, or another Rep president?).The ruling is like three slaps in Trump's ugly face.Wow, wouldn't have guessed 3-0 was on the cards from listening in to it.
To be fair, the DOJ guy was utterly appalling though.
I assume it's more unsafe due to Trump himself. He takes every opportunity to play into ISIS' hands, confirming the narrative that it's the West against muslims.BTW: Serious honest question .....
Is America suddenly a lot more unsafe in the few weeks since Obama left?
Im assuming new intel that tRump has seen suggest it is, and thats why he so hot and bovvered about this?
She tweets occasionally, it's not her first one. For example, she tweeted this:I don't know if it's the first post (although that's what I thought when I first saw it) but yeah it's a poor first post![]()
Well, I doubt those who claim to love the constitution actually fully read and understand it. Not just in the US but in many countries.Amazing that people who love to drape themselves in the flag and bang on about the Constitution want to get violent when it gets used to prove them wrong.
A dissenting opinion from a law professor in the WaPo
This is a bit worrying. Those courts better reach watertight decisions. If Trump should be able to overthrow it, I expect he would use it as leverage point to crack down on the judicial branch, get them in line.A dissenting opinion from a law professor in the WaPo
Also, I understand his argument till the paragraph second from the end. That makes zero sense. They aren't saying "he's a bigot", they are saying "here's proof of what that policy was desgined to do, from the mouth of the person who designed it".
And again, there is precedent to look beyond the words of the law to see if it is ultimately targeting a group even if the law doesn't say so - precedent upheld by everyone from Scalia to Brennan.
We could easily put up a 100 articles saying the decision is solid as hell...but, it's interesting to see how the 'other side' sees things.
Fox news and Republicans aren't exactly a source of great intellectual debate atm - just a lot of sour faces and anger.
These opinions albeit from overtly partisan entities, do give us some insight...
I somewhat agree with you, but would the average voter have a clue who the administrative head of the DNC is/ would it in anyway override their view of the Dem Senator/ President he'll be asking them to vote for?That's because his politics align with Bernie's. I'm not convincied appointing him would help with areas the Dems are hurting in at the moment - namely blue collar whites and voters who don't live in massive cities.
I heard one of his spokespersons on the Radio earlier saying the decision is fundamentally wrong because the ruling was on the basis of affecting the constitutional rights of people in other countries that are not U.S. citizens.
What are the chances the Supreme Court rules in his favour?
As the court explained, even looking at such statements would “chill debate during campaign.” If campaign statements can be policed, the court concluded, it would in short undermine democracy
There are sound policy reasons for ignoring campaign statements or promises to shed light on subsequent official action. For one, campaign promises are often insincere, designed to appeal to voters. Indeed, they are explicitly instrumental, and their goal is not policy outputs, but election. Moreover, implemented laws or policies are often substantially different from promises, as is the case here.
The entire EO is bad policy. Not only is it inefficient and vaguely non-sensical, its also completely ineffective since there is already extreme vetting from said countries.
Amuses me that the administration made no attempt to defend the logic of the ban. Their case was pretty much 'because el preso says so'. So it is quite apparent that there is no basis of a threat, no inside intelligence, it is just a 'show' from Trump's point of view.
Amuses me that the administration made no attempt to defend the logic of the ban. Their case was pretty much 'because el preso says so'. So it is quite apparent that there is no basis of a threat, no inside intelligence, it is just a 'show' from Trump's point of view.
KellyAnne thought she could go on Fox and not be asked any tough questions - Martha McCallum nails her twice - once about the Ivanka products and again asking her if she was getting suspended. She's clearly uncomfortable here, which sort of puts her jab at Hillary into more context.
A dissenting opinion from a law professor in the WaPo
Dershowitz (spell?) appeared on CNN and BBC quickly after the Trump administration filed the appeal against the TRO. I don't know if he changed his mind but at that time he said something along the lines of anybody who would claim to know how the final ruling would be cannot be taken seriously.I heard one of his spokespersons on the Radio earlier saying the decision is fundamentally wrong because the ruling was on the basis of affecting the constitutional rights of people in other countries that are not U.S. citizens.
What are the chances the Supreme Court rules in his favour?
As it should be IMO. I'm obviously missing context why the constitution would allow to exclude pre-election statements. Any constitution in any country should allow to hold people, including politicians, accountable for everything they say or do, whether during a political campaign or later. Why exempt politicians in a campaign? It doesn't make any sense to me.My reaction as I was reading this was, "Yeah great, let their campaign statements be scrutinized!!". To my mind, he's inadvertently making a case for holding campaign promises to accountability.
I heard one of his spokespersons on the Radio earlier saying the decision is fundamentally wrong because the ruling was on the basis of affecting the constitutional rights of people in other countries that are not U.S. citizens.
What are the chances the Supreme Court rules in his favour?
To add to that, the administration's argument is fundamentally flawed in that it fails to recognize the wording of the 14th Amendment...The problem is that the ban also targets US residents who are protected by the constitution. If the ban was only applied to people that haven't been processed and granted authorizations to live on US soil, the debate would be different.
To be protected by our constitution and our laws, you simply have to be here, legally or illegally.No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
To add to that, the administration's argument is fundamentally flawed in that it fails to recognize the wording of the 14th Amendment...
To be protected by our constitution and our laws, you simply have to be here, legally or illegally.
Not really if it is applied to the states themselves, but who in the states does it apply to. The court's decision actually broadened the scope of the people being injured by the executive order because of the wording of the 14th.IIRC the big fight over the 14th amendment was whether it can be applied to states, right? From that wording it looks very clear!
In contrast, Noah Purcell, the solicitor general of Washington state who was arguing to keep the injunction, cited Trump’s campaign trail promise to impose “a total and complete shutdown on Muslims entering the United States” and raised the specter of religious discrimination.
The court, though, did not base its decision on this argument, although it noted “we reserve consideration of these claims until the merits of this appeal have been fully briefed”.
One of the government’s key arguments was that the state of Washington lacked “standing” – the legal right to sue – but the court ruled that it did, naming for example the costs to state universities. The court also “note[d] the serious nature of the allegations the States have raised with respect to their religious discrimination claims”.
The three judges showed little patience for this argument during a hearing on Tuesday, saying that the government had failed to show how a temporary restraining order would cause harm. But they brought the hammer down in the ruling on the government’s claim that the White House had “unreviewable authority” on matters of national security.
“There is no precedent to support this claimed unreviewability, which runs contrary to the fundamental structure of our constitutional democracy,” they wrote. “Although courts owe considerable deference to the president’s policy determinations with respect to immigration and national security, it is beyond question that the federal judiciary retains the authority to adjudicate constitutional challenges to executive action.”
They said that the president based his opinion on the information that he collected from the national security meetings. I guess that those meetings are classified and he can't divulge a all lot.
T'chah, I don't believe for a minute that he has any really solid basis for identifying those particular countries (and not certain others). It is an attempt to do something showy for his voters.
@Neutral
All from the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...eny-trump-travel-ban-enforcement-uphold-order
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/09/travel-ban-ruling-supreme-court-donald-trump
IMO that article seems quite one-eyed, and downright wrong, given that the cornerstone of the order is not his campaign speeches.
Dec. 11, 2016 — Trump suggests he would use Taiwan's status as a bargaining chip. "I don't know why we have to be bound by a 'one China' policy unless we make a deal with China having to do with other things, including trade," he told Fox News Sunday .
Jan. 13, 2017 — Trump tells The Wall Street Journal , "Everything is under negotiation, including 'one China.'" The Chinese foreign ministry in turn says Taiwan is "non-negotiable." Chinese state media, tightly controlled by the government, publish two English-language editorials condemning Trump, including one China Daily editorial saying Trump was "playing with fire."
Feb. 8, 2017 — The White House announces Trump sent a letter to Chinese President Xi Jinping offering well-wishes for the Chinese Lunar New Year.
Feb. 9, 2017 — The White House says Trump and Xi have spoken by phone, and Trump "agreed, at the request of President Xi, to honor our 'one China' policy."
shrewd businessman....
again, not a bad idea....
fair enough
oh ok...