Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Unmutual said:
If Corbyn was making a big tent approach on Europe, that might be a fair comment. But he isn't.
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The term might not be the perfect fit but i disagree, they went with the decision to appeal (or not push away) to a wide base by voting for article 50 rather than the conceding to the will of the core base.

All we've heard over the last year is complaints that Labour haven't done that. I say Labour and not Corbyn because the decision to do so was one with wide support amongst the MPs.
 
Smores said:
The term might not be the perfect fit but i disagree, they went with the decision to appeal (or not push away) to a wide base by voting for article 50 rather than the conceding to the will of the core base.

All we've heard over the last year is complaints that Labour haven't done that. I say Labour and not Corbyn because the decision to do so was one with wide support amongst the MPs.
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Again, this isnt just about the Article 50 vote. This is about the failure to champion a version of soft Brexit based around ongoing single market membership, one that could appeal to Remainers & also honour the outcome of the referendum. That was the big tent option. Corbyn ruled out single market membership because of state aid rules of all things, offered nothing else, then whipped in favour of giving May a free hand in negotiations with the EU. That's why Remainers are unhappy.
 
Unmutual said:
Again, this isnt just about the Article 50 vote. This is about the failure to champion a version of soft Brexit based around ongoing single market membership, one that could appeal to Remainers & also honour the outcome of the referendum. That was the big tent option. Corbyn ruled out single market membership because of state aid rules of all things, offered nothing else, then whipped in favour of giving May a free hand in negotiations with the EU. That's why Remainers are unhappy.
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Nonsense 90% of the discussion has been moaning about the A50 vote and its hypocrisy across the board. People are willing to abandon principle to help on welfare because of bad polling but a definitive rreferendum and it MUST be fought.

Secondly what you've laid out is exactly what Labour has been championing until May laid out it wouldn't happen after which they demanded impact analysis of us leaving. I don't think people understand that May had a free hand irrespective, could they have championed harder? Probably but it would have been seen as blocking article 50 and the precious polling said that was bad. Cant have it both ways.
 
Smores said:
Nonsense 90% of the discussion has been moaning about the A50 vote and its hypocrisy across the board. People are willing to abandon principle to help on welfare because of bad polling but a definitive rreferendum and it MUST be fought.

Secondly what you've laid out is exactly what Labour has been championing until May laid out it wouldn't happen after which they demanded impact analysis of us leaving. I don't think people understand that May had a free hand irrespective, could they have championed harder? Probably but it would have been seen as blocking article 50 and the precious polling said that was bad. Cant have it both ways.
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Calling people hypocrites for agreeing with the welfare cuts but disagreeing with the A50 decision is weird, because you seem have made the opposite journey. I assume you dont consider yourself a hypocrite, so dont call others out. Better to accept that, despite the strong parallels, both are finely weighted issues and its possible to be on one side of the debate on one and on the other the next time.

On the other point, Corbyn has never suggested single market membership. He was pressed to confirm it during the leadership contest and ruled it out.
 
Dobba said:
It'll only get greater from here when the inevitable leadership race kicks off again. Bring it on.
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I dont really expect a leadership contest any time soon. As evidenced by your comment, it would rally his supporters, and MPs know that. They also know its given Corbyn an excuse for his performance, and turned a lot of members against them. At this point either Corbyn stands down, or he goes into 2020, at which points he's responsible for what happens.
 
Unmutual said:
I dont really expect a leadership contest any time soon. As evidenced by your comment, it would rally his supporters, and MPs know that. They also know its given Corbyn an excuse for his performance, and turned a lot of members against them. At this point either Corbyn stands down, or he goes into 2020, at which points he's responsible for what happens.
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If Labour offered a non-Blair backed non-Tory lite alternative (i.e. someone who is even in viewing distance of the left of the party) I'd consider voting for them and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in that. This is their third chance to do what is probably their best bet of getting rid of Corbyn, bar going all Putin on him and poisoning his nut roast.

I won't be holding my breath.
 
Dobba said:
If Labour offered a non-Blair backed non-Tory lite alternative (i.e. someone who is even in viewing distance of the left of the party) I'd consider voting for them and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in that. This is their third chance to do what is probably their best bet of getting rid of Corbyn, bar going all Putin on him and poisoning his nut roast.

I won't be holding my breath.
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Whats your strategy, if labour can’t win elections with this course?
 
PedroMendez said:
Whats your strategy, if labour can’t win elections with this course?
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I'm not interested in the party if they go back to their 'abstaining to look tough on scroungers' days of the recent past. I'd just vote for people like Nick the Flying Brick from last night's Stoke byelection who, amongst other things, wanted to abolish gravity.
 
Dobba said:
If Labour offered a non-Blair backed non-Tory lite alternative (i.e. someone who is even in viewing distance of the left of the party) I'd consider voting for them and I'm sure I wouldn't be alone in that. This is their third chance to do what is probably their best bet of getting rid of Corbyn, bar going all Putin on him and poisoning his nut roast.

I won't be holding my breath.
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Owen Smith was from the soft left of the party, but as soon as he stood against Corbyn, the pro-Corbyn machine labelled him a Blairite. The reality is that only a Corbyn anointed MP could win, because the mere act of disagreeing with Corbyn is enough to taint the person standing.
 
Unmutual said:
I dont really expect a leadership contest any time soon. As evidenced by your comment, it would rally his supporters, and MPs know that. They also know its given Corbyn an excuse for his performance, and turned a lot of members against them. At this point either Corbyn stands down, or he goes into 2020, at which points he's responsible for what happens.
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Optimistic

 
Unmutual said:
Owen Smith was from the soft left of the party, but as soon as he stood against Corbyn, the pro-Corbyn machine labelled him a Blairite. The reality is that only a Corbyn anointed MP could win, because the mere act of disagreeing with Corbyn is enough to taint the person standing.
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The only thing 'soft and left' about Owen Smith was that ice cream van's stock when nobody turned up to one of his speeches.
 
Unmutual said:
Owen Smith was from the soft left of the party, but as soon as he stood against Corbyn, the pro-Corbyn machine labelled him a Blairite. The reality is that only a Corbyn anointed MP could win, because the mere act of disagreeing with Corbyn is enough to taint the person standing.
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You know he lied about immigration putting schools in his area under pressure. Nicking one straight from the UKIP/BNP note book, but hey cock jokes work for some I guess.

Dobba said:
The only thing 'soft and left' about Owen Smith was that ice cream van's stock when nobody turned up to one of his speeches.
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:lol:
 
Dobba said:
It'll only get greater from here when the inevitable leadership race kicks off again. Bring it on.
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Even the harshest Labour critic as said there should be no further leadership challenge. But if they want to go for it again as you say bring it.
 
Unmutual said:
Calling people hypocrites for agreeing with the welfare cuts but disagreeing with the A50 decision is weird, because you seem have made the opposite journey. I assume you dont consider yourself a hypocrite, so dont call others out. Better to accept that, despite the strong parallels, both are finely weighted issues and its possible to be on one side of the debate on one and on the other the next time.

On the other point, Corbyn has never suggested single market membership. He was pressed to confirm it during the leadership contest and ruled it out.
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Not at all when i was mulling this over i very much identified my thoughts as hypocritical but the basis for my contradiction is that i believe a referndum result should stand irrespective of my opinion. The basis of the contradiction on the other side to me just seems like caring about an issue more than another.

Corbyn called for it many times, his appointed brexit secretary called for it many times. A quick google will show you that. You can argue their media strategy of doing so is lacklustre but it has been in the papers every time.
 
Drifter said:
Even the harshest Labour critic as said there should be no further leadership challenge. But if they want to go for it again as you say bring it.
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Because there isn't really an alternative direction at the moment. Labour is in trouble irrespective, why would any politician step in and take the blame.

Still id change if at all possible, Labour should fake news its way to a majority if need be. The balance between keeping the remainers but grabbing some reluctant leavers will be important if the tories collapse
 
Smores said:
Corbyn called for it many times, his appointed brexit secretary called for it many times. A quick google will show you that. You can argue their media strategy of doing so is lacklustre but it has been in the papers every time.
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Youre confusing access to the single market with membership of it.
 
Nice line on radio 4's 'the news quiz' today:

Civil partnerships were introduced by the last labour government, though of course at the time no one realised it was going to be the last labour government.

As for news comedy in general, I quite like Have I Got News for You on BBC TV, mostly for Ian Hislop, but the radio version is far funnier, give it a try if you're into that sort of thing.
 
712 said:
Nice line on radio 4's 'the news quiz' today:

Civil partnerships were introduced by the last labour government, though of course at the time no one realised it was going to be the last labour government.

As for news comedy in general, I quite like Have I Got News for You on BBC TV, mostly for Ian Hislop, but the radio version is far funnier, give it a try if you're into that sort of thing.
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Ian Hislop does some good work but is a smug detestable cnut.
 
Jippy said:
Ian Hislop does some good work but is a smug detestable cnut.
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Do you hate him just because he's smug, or is there any more to it? I've always liked him, though HIGNFY has been unwatchable for as far as I remember.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Do you hate him just because he's smug, or is there any more to it? I've always liked him, though HIGNFY has been unwatchable for as far as I remember.
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I used to like Private Eye, but it gets samey after a while and has a smug, high-handed tone ('trebles all round!' Boom boom for the eight millionth time). PE is like the reverse Daily Mail, in that it is broadly a force for good, but makes you angry.
I always preferred Paul Merton on HIGNFY, but he is very hit and miss. Not seen it in yonks.
But yep, my dislike of Hislop stems from his delivery and mannerisms more than anything. And his face.
 
@Both - Fair!

Would struggle to disagree with any of that - except that Merton is a million, million times more annoying. Though I'm happy to call myself prejudiced against any and all improv 'artists'.
 
I remember around the time Corbyn became leader, one of the reasons I didn't mind him compared to the others was because a considerable portion of the party continually refused to recognise their own failings and consistently shifted blame elsewhere: to the SNP, to Miliband's leadership and other similar factors.

Corbyn's managed to go down the same track, only to a far greater extent. He comes across as being unable to comprehend that he might be the problem to some extent...that he might not be a great leader and would be better off resigning.

I think his parties treatment of him has been poor for a lot of his tenure but there comes a time where you've just got to stop blaming other people and accept responsibility for your failings; Corbyn's job was to provide a strong opposition, and he's failed. It's all well and good for him to play politics for moral purposes and aim to cling onto his position but he's not helping anyone who doesn't want a Tory government, just further enabling them to enact whatever they want because his polling is so pitiful.
 
As useless as Corbyn is, McDonnell's the real poison in the party right now.
 
Ubik said:
As useless as Corbyn is, McDonnell's the real poison in the party right now.
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It's a complete shower of shit all over the place.

I mean what is this:





The leader of the Oppostion does not think the government should at least *try* to stay in the single market.
 
Blimey, McDonnell is acting as if Mandelson came out and said he's doing everything he can to undermine and oust Corbyn or Blair got off his throne of Iraqi skulls to hold some bizarre press conference. Or that there had been completely unfounded stories in Murdoch's rags that Corbyn was to stand down.
 
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