His role was different to the one he plays at United though.
Ander Herrera vs N'golo Kanté | Thread has gone well
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His role was different to the one he plays at United though.
I know. He really suits the pressing game as well though. I think he'd do well under Klopp.
He's still learning this season too. Think he'll be even better next time around.
To answer the OP - because Kante is the superior player
Yeah, the dismissal of stats w.r.t Kante v Herrera is beginning to get ridiculous. What is it that Kante does so well that stats can't capture?
I suppose one is lauded because he's said to be instrumental in two consecutive EPL title wins with two different teams, whereas Herrera is playing for us. On the very basic level that is, without going into statistics, things not captured by statistics and all that talk.
Herrera has had a great season but Kante dominates games. He has one of the best engines in the league.
His engine. Closing down, forcing opponents into making mistakes I suppose. Other than that I can't see Kante being any more important than Herrera is for us.
There's a lot. First, Kante's presence is a major deterrent-opponents are less likely to pass the ball towards players who can be closed down by Kante, and the speed with which he closes down means that this comprises a considerable range. Opposing players are thus forced into making more difficult passes and this results in more turnovers. Kante has fewer opportunities to make interceptions because he prevents opponents from making those passes in the first place just by being around.
Kante also forces opposing players in possession into bad or inefficient decisions due to his relentless closing down. Even if it doesn't cause a turnover, taking the tempo out of an opposition attack and forcing them to go backwards is a good thing for the team, and isn't captured by statistics. Similarly, Kante forces rushed shots and passes that aren't classified as turnovers for him but result in possession being gained for the team.
Finally, he is a one man wrecking ball when it comes to breaking up counterattacks-since the change to 3-4-3 Chelsea haven't conceded a single goal from a counter. This is largely due to Kante's pace and understanding of where and how to position himself perfectly to prevent danger. It really is an invaluable asset for the team.
You could be right. Or you could be wrong. The things you have mentioned sound so intangible they could be hypothetical. In any case, wouldn't Harrera's interception success rate lead to the same effects?
Statistically speaking De Gea is nowhere near the best goalkeeper on earth, which rather proves that stats by themselves rarely tell the whole story.
Yeah it's completely different for goalies. Concentration levels make world class goalkeepers, which is hard to measure in stats.
Only on a United forum would this be a discussion.
Trying to make Americans interested on "soccer" was a mistake
Ander Herrera is on the same level as Kante. Just cause he doesn't run around the pitch like a fecking mad man doesn't make him unworthy of discussion.
I don't believe Kante is necessarily a better footballer than Herrrera. He's more athletic and just stunningly consistent. Always performs at a high level. That's why he's more talked about. Herrera has been praised this season, rightly so as he's upped his level and been more consistent. Needs to maintain it.
Also helps that in the last 2 seasons Kante has been integral to two title winning sides (formality with Chelsea) who play the best football in the league.
Also helps that in the last 2 seasons Kante has been integral to two title winning sides (formality with Chelsea) who play the best football in the league.
This is largely my point-defensive statistics generally do a poor job of accurately telling the full story, since they are trying to measure a negative action. None of the things I've mentioned are currently tracked, or if they are they aren't available to the public.
Interception success rate would be a very interesting stat to have access to, but right now all we know is interception totals-we don't know if Herrera made more interceptions because he had more chances to (i.e. opposing players were more emboldened to pass in his area) or if he's genuinely better at intercepting. I'm a bit biased so I'd be inclined to think that the former hypothesis is more accurate, but unless someone went back and charted it we can't really know.
Away from the stats they are also different players. Kante is seen as the better player which is understandable, but I wouldn't swap Herrera for him at all.
Different applications. How can you compare if they don't even play on the same team set up or role?
Herrera has better stats in intersections. In fact he pretty much has better stats right across the board.
I'd love having Kante on our team, but more than happy with Herrera.
Such a likeable person aswell.
Also think he is important in the dressing room, and making our spanish contigent enjoy their time at the club.
Such a likeable person aswell.
Also think he is important in the dressing room, and making our spanish contigent enjoy their time at the club.
if Mourinho ever played a 343 or similar for a run of games with Herrera in the same role as Kante then perhaps it could be judged
Right, and therein lies the limitations with defensive statistics, because I don't think anyone could possibly argue with a straight face that Herrera is a better defensive midfielder than Kante. There are certainly things that Herrera does better than Kante, but locking down a midfield isn't one of them.
I don't think it's anything to do with formation. Herrera and Kante could have the same roles within a team playing different formations. Listen, I know stats don't tell the whole story, but surely they tell enough to ask questions?
Actually he sort of does. Less effective, but he has the mad man bit down.
Another stat to throw in there from Opta-powered WhoScored is Kanté ranks as the 6th best midfielder in the league - behind Pogba, Herrera, Gueye, Henderson and Dembele - and the 5th best player in the Chelsea team. I don't think that's too far from the truth either. His average rating is brought down by his first couple of months in the season where he got a rating of below 7 in five of his first six games. It's entirely understandable that he took time to settle but people have completely glossed over the fact he was underwhelming to begin with. The ratings accurately reflect that. As a comparison, Herrera has had just one rating below 7 in the seventeen games WhoScored have rated since the beginning of November.
While these stats are undoubtedly limited I don't think they should be flat-out ignored. The same stats placed Kanté as the 6th best player in the league behind Mahrez, Payet, Sánchez, Dembele and Ozil, which I think roughly correlates with what our eyes all told us last year. It shows there's nothing inherently biased in the statistical measures against Kanté or his style of play too. He just hasn't been as exceptional as he was last season.
Exactly. It's fecking laughable.
I guess I'm already arguing that Herrera is as good. In the thread title there's a 'Vs.' So obviously there's an argument there. Listen I'm not great at articulating my point across, but I did ask In the OP why was Herrera not receiving as much plaudits as Kante when they have the same stats, not wether Kante was a better player. Which makes me a fool for putting a vs in a thread title in the first place.
Without being agro, I'm not sure what you've said to me, mate. I'm a bit drunk so that could be it.
Kante would win the blankets back from my missus, hes that good
Because Kante plays in the better team right now. They are on the verge of winning the league so that's why...
when Arsenal was at the top of the table, Coquelin was receiving the same plaudits...
Media = Hype (not proper knowledge)
As soon as our team gets into a title challenge, our players will receive those plaudits.
Because Kante plays in the better team right now. They are on the verge of winning the league so that's why...
when Arsenal was at the top of the table, Coquelin was receiving the same plaudits...
Media = Hype (not proper knowledge)
As soon as our team gets into a title challenge, our players will receive those plaudits.
Yeah I suppose but I remember Michael Carrick had the same treatment. He was a mainstay in one of the most successful parts of Man Utd history, yet he only started receiving his plaudits when was well over 30. So is it because Man Utd midfield was littered with Robson, Keane, Scholes that we're so dismissive of our recent players?
Perhaps
He's not in Kante's class let alone be in a discussion with him.
Considering many have him tipped for the player of the year, those ratings are out of the window. Ever since they changed the formation i'd say he's been easily as good as he was last season if not better. You should've have thrown those stats out when you saw Henderson being rated higher.
I really haven't seen any evidence to suggest what you're saying. Really, I think Kante is class player but he's nowhere near as good as people are making him out to be.
Ha ha. I hope you've had a good night!
Not really mate. I'm stuck on RedCafe whilst the wife and the cat are plotting to kill me!
but they are not playing the same role because of formation and style of play ...thats like comparing a CB in a 3 like Luiz to a CB in a 4
Exactly. But it's proof of how amazing Kante is. He actually kept running to make up for his awful touch... players never do that!
Most overrated player in the world right now. Quality player but the lovefest is so OTT.
Well, I suppose I'd have to respectfully disagree with you then mate. I'm a big believer in the power of statistics in general as a tool, but it's important to keep in mind that stats in football are really in their infancy, particularly on the defensive side of the ball. I know it's very hand-wavey and a bit anecdotal, but Kante's impact goes beyond what we can currently measure. The security he brings to the midfield allows the rest of the team to play with so much freedom-for instance now Hazard doesn't have to defend and can roam the entire attacking third, destabilising the opposing defense. That's a direct result of Kante's presence, but how can it be properly quantified?
I will say that Herrera is absolutely underrated by the wider public, which is a bit of a shame. I don't think, however, that he could do the job of Kante in a 2 man midfield, but he's the perfect complementary player for Pogba as an energetic box to box midfielder in a 3 if you put a deep lying passer behind them and approximated the Juventus midfield of Pogba-Pirlo-Vidal.