Ander Herrera vs N'golo Kanté | Thread has gone well

[Eddy_JukeZ]

I think they're at a pretty similar level to be honest.

I think Leicester having a poor season has attributed to Kante's extra media attention. He's the main reason Chelsea are doing great this season and Leceister are doing so poor has been spouted a lot. I've seen that mentioned numerous times.

They fail to realize that Vardy and Mahrez were exceptionally productive last season and have fallen back to Earth this season. Hazard/Matic/Costa all under-performed last season and are back to their norm this season.

 

[MadMike]

I will say that Herrera is absolutely underrated by the wider public, which is a bit of a shame. I don't think, however, that he could do the job of Kante in a 2 man midfield, but he's the perfect complementary player for Pogba as an energetic box to box midfielder in a 3 if you put a deep lying passer behind them and approximated the Juventus midfield of Pogba-Pirlo-Vidal.

The irony here is that he actually does Kante's job, in a 2 man midfield, with an ill disciplined midfield partner next to him and 1 less centre back behind him, while having a much better offensive contribution to boot.

I'd like to see Kante do what he does while playing with an attacking CM next to him and only 2 CBs, before I consider him worthy of a comparison with Herrera.

Actually, now that I think about it, didn't Conte try playing Matic further up the pitch early in the season (still 3 CBs) and Kante looked all at sea? Isn't that the reason why they play Kante + Matic instead of Kante + Fabregas?

Here's how I see things. Kante has a very very very particular role. He has great athleticism and he can do that role better than anyone if you remove from him any other responsibility.

Compared to Herrera he has worse vision, worse first touch, worse passing, worse positional awareness, worse link up play, worse stats on pretty much everything. He is the better athlete. But as a footballer, he just isn't on Herrera's level.

 

[DatGuyRich]

Comparing Herrera to Kante is borderline blasphemous.

One is a consecutive premier league title winner the other is an average midfielder who's ability is clouded by his passion and personality.

I will be seriously annoyed and worried if he is still in our strongest 11 come next season. Great option in the team but is nowhere near good enough for our future ambitions.

 

[Mike09]

@MaxiPaxi

Stats can't show how good the player's decision making, positioning, influence, vision, concentration, work rate, and how they play when off the ball.

I believe from those attributes that i have mentioned Herrera has the work rate and the concentration. But compared to Kante, the decision making, positioning (overall), influence, and off, Kante is still over Herrera. People said if you have more interceptions means you can read the game well better (which is true) however can read the game well better doesn't always mean your positioning is better. Positioning have different type and it can be when you are on or off the ball, while reading the game well is about anticipation and good positioning can help you to have good or better anticipation. Kante dominates the game while Herrera doesn't.

Calling Herrera has been brilliant is definitely exaggeration. Brilliant season should be what you call it on Keane, Scholes and Carrick 2012/2013.
He's only our 2nd or 3rd best player this season mainly because the rest are inconsistent and only Valencia and probably De Gea are more consistent than Herrera. The likes of Carrick I can only remember him having a poor one game against Liverpool but didn't play as much as Herrera this season due to match fitness and his age. The likes of Pogba and Zlatan have been very inconsistent but when they play at their best game this season they are better than Herrera as a player and Pogba at his best game is better than Herrera's as a midfielder.

 

[MadMike]

Comparing Herrera to Kante is borderline blasphemous.

One is a consecutive premier league title winner the other is an average midfielder who's ability is clouded by his passion and personality.

I will be seriously annoyed and worried if he is still in our strongest 11 come next season. Great option in the team but is nowhere near good enough for our future ambitions.

If anything is blasphemous, it's this post. The only player who's had a better season than Herrera has been Ibra. And arguably he has been more consistent than Ibra. He is POTY candidate for United.

You would be annoyed if one of our two best performers did not get replaced in the summer?

What a terrible post.

 

[Mike09]

If anything is blasphemous, it's this post. The only player who's had a better season than Herrera has been Ibra. And arguably he has been more consistent than Ibra. He is POTY candidate for United.

You would be annoyed if one of our two best performers did not get replaced in the summer?

What a terrible post.

What about Valencia???

Herrera had some poor games this season. Only Valencia, Carrick and De Gea had less poor games than Herrera this season so far. Carrick played less games than Herrera while De Gea is pretty much not as busy as he used to be in previous seasons. To me Valencia should be considered having better season than Herrera, Valencia had zero poor game and his worst game is "good game".

Will you take Kante over Herrera or Herrera over Kante in midfield? I'll take Kante over Herrera now.

 

[MadMike]

What about Valencia???

Herrera had some poor games this season. Only Valencia, Carrick and De Gea had less poor games than Herrera this season so far. Carrick played less games than Herrera while De Gea is pretty much not as busy as he used to be in previous seasons. To me Valencia should be considered having better season than Herrera, Valencia had zero poor game and his worst game is "good game".

Will you take Kante over Herrera or Herrera over Kante in midfield? I'll take Kante over Herrera now.

Carrick has had poor games to the point where he had to be withdrawn at half time. More than once. Even in his bad games Herrera is still irreplaceable on the pitch. And Carrick has had nowhere near the same minutes and influence on games. That's not even a contest.

Valencia is 3rd behind Herrera for me. Consistent performer but he's been lacking a bit of end product. Especially considering how often he gets in good positions to cross and has a target man the size of Ibra in the box. Against Soton in the final Herrera put a better cross from the right in the end than Valencia did all game.

Of course I would not take Kante over Herrera. Kante + Pogba would be worse than Herrera + Pogba, because Kante needs Matic behind him to cover for him.

If Kante alone offered enough protection as some people claim, then Conte would have been playing Fabregas instead of Matic. Which would be more equivalent to the Pogba + Herrera partnership. But they tried it at Chelsea and it didn't work out.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

The irony here is that he actually does Kante's job, in a 2 man midfield, with an ill disciplined midfield partner next to him and 1 less centre back behind him, while having a much better offensive contribution to boot.

I'd like to see Kante do what he does while playing with an attacking CM next to him and only 2 CBs, before I consider him worthy of a comparison with Herrera.

Actually, now that I think about it, didn't Conte try playing Matic further up the pitch early in the season (still 3 CBs) and Kante looked all at sea? Isn't that the reason why they play Kante + Matic instead of Kante + Fabregas?

Here's how I see things. Kante has a very very very particular role. He has great athleticism and he can do that role better than anyone if you remove from him any other responsibility.

Compared to Herrera he has worse vision, worse first touch, worse passing, worse positional awareness, worse link up play, worse stats on pretty much everything. He is the better athlete. But as a footballer, he just isn't on Herrera's level.

He doesn't really, since United play a 4-2-3-1 the midfield 2 is a bit of a misnomer as they don't press that high up the pitch, that's the responsibility of the number 10.

Chelsea began the season playing a 4-1-4-1, with Kante immediately in front of the centre backs with Oscar and Matic in front. There were numerous problems with this system, chiefly that Kante couldn't press further up the pitch and Oscar and Matic were restricted in terms of their forward movements, meaning Costa was isolated.

I agree that Kante is a poorer attacking player than Herrera, but I would very strongly disagree with the assertion that he has worse positional awareness. Kante has just about the best positional awareness I've ever seen from a midfielder; the best I've witnessed personally since Makelele. At times it's otherworldly, he is always in the perfect position to snuff out danger before it can fully develop. Aside from his freakish athleticism, it is by far his strongest attribute.

I would also gently suggest that you may want to watch more Chelsea matches this season-Kante has actually developed quite a bit as a passer as the season has gone along. Again, I'd agree that Herrera is superior in this regard, but it's very clear that he's worked very hard in training on his long passes, to the point where he'll hit one or two lovely long switches to the wing backs a match.

I've posted this elsewhere but the greatest advantage Kante gives your side is that he allows you to not only compete in midfield but to dominate midfields with only two players against three opposition players. This gives you a numerical advantage elsewhere on the pitch. It's why he's wasted in a midfield 3 and why Chelsea only started to click when Conte changed to a 3-4-3. It's the sort of impact that we really can't capture by stats currently, aside from points in the table.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Carrick has had poor games to the point where he had to be withdrawn at half time. More than once. Even in his bad games Herrera is still irreplaceable on the pitch. And Carrick has had nowhere near the same minutes and influence on games. That's not even a contest.

Valencia is 3rd behind Herrera for me. Consistent performer but he's been lacking a bit of end product. Especially considering how often he gets in good positions to cross and has a target man the size of Ibra in the box. Against Soton in the final Herrera put a better cross from the right in the end than Valencia did all game.

Of course I would not take Kante over Herrera. Kante + Pogba would be worse than Herrera + Pogba, because Kante needs Matic behind him to cover for him.

If Kante alone offered enough protection as some people claim, then Conte would have been playing Fabregas instead of Matic. Which would be more equivalent to the Pogba + Herrera partnership. But they tried it at Chelsea and it didn't work out.

Actually, it seems Conte may have been using Fabregas sparingly to save him for the run in, when relegation-threatened teams try to shut up shop and become more challenging to overcome. His having fresher legs may be vital during the run in; he's started the last 3 matches for Chelsea.

Also, Matic hasn't really been covering for Kante so much; of the two Matic is the more attacking player by far.

 

[POF]

Kante is a better ball winner. Herrera is a better all round midfield player.

Kante may win 2 consecutive titles but he has/had a very specific role in both sides. Both teams were set up to defend deep and use the space for pacy attackers. There is limited creativity from central midfield and any there was is provided by Kante's partner rather than Kante himself.

United do not have the personnel to play that way and cannot really carry a player as limited on the ball in central midfield as Kante. Herrera is not a natural defensive midfield player but it was a position that needed filling and he has adapted his game superbly.

At the start of the season if anyone suggested United's first choice midfield would be a duo of Herrera and Pogba I would have thought they were crazy. It's credit to Herrera's intelligence and versatility that it has worked.

 

[MadMike]

He doesn't really, since United play a 4-2-3-1 the midfield 2 is a bit of a misnomer as they don't press that high up the pitch, that's the responsibility of the number 10.

Chelsea began the season playing a 4-1-4-1, with Kante immediately in front of the centre backs with Oscar and Matic in front. There were numerous problems with this system, chiefly that Kante couldn't press further up the pitch and Oscar and Matic were restricted in terms of their forward movements, meaning Costa was isolated.

I agree that Kante is a poorer attacking player than Herrera, but I would very strongly disagree with the assertion that he has worse positional awareness. Kante has just about the best positional awareness I've ever seen from a midfielder; the best I've witnessed personally since Makelele. At times it's otherworldly, he is always in the perfect position to snuff out danger before it can fully develop. Aside from his freakish athleticism, it is by far his strongest attribute.

I would also gently suggest that you may want to watch more Chelsea matches this season-Kante has actually developed quite a bit as a passer as the season has gone along. Again, I'd agree that Herrera is superior in this regard, but it's very clear that he's worked very hard in training on his long passes, to the point where he'll hit one or two lovely long switches to the wing backs a match.

I've posted this elsewhere but the greatest advantage Kante gives your side is that he allows you to not only compete in midfield but to dominate midfields with only two players against three opposition players. This gives you a numerical advantage elsewhere on the pitch. It's why he's wasted in a midfield 3 and why Chelsea only started to click when Conte changed to a 3-4-3. It's the sort of impact that we really can't capture by stats currently, aside from points in the table.

You realise there is a logical fallacy in your last paragraph? You mention Chelsea dominating with a midfield 2 and then you mention Chelsea playing 3-4-3. Which is 4 midfielders instead of most teams 3.

The 3 CBs allow the full backs to stay further up and play as midfielders and press further up the pitch. That's part of why that works.

I do watch Chelsea, I have seen Kante's passing improve this season but it's still below most midfielders. It's the simple passes he messes up more often than the long ones from what I see.

Like I said they play with a system that gets the best out of him. They press high with a midfield 4 and that allows Hazard and Co to stay further up the pitch in the danger zone without having to track back too much.

 

[Adisa]

These comparison threads never go well for us.

 

[MadMike]

Actually, it seems Conte may have been using Fabregas sparingly to save him for the run in, when relegation-threatened teams try to shut up shop and become more challenging to overcome. His having fresher legs may be vital during the run in; he's started the last 3 matches for Chelsea.

Also, Matic hasn't really been covering for Kante so much; of the two Matic is the more attacking player by far.

No he's not. Matic stays positionally deeper. If by more attacking you mean he has more probing/creative distribution, then yes.

If Conte was saving Fabregas, maybe we should have saved Ibra and Real should have saved Ronaldo for the end of the season. The reason why he hans't played so much is because playing Matic and Kante works better. Simple as. No one plays an inferior formation for 2/3ds of the season.

 

[Attila]

I don't think there's that much of a difference between them. I don't wish we had Kante and I don't think he should be winning player of the year like some have suggested. That should go to someone like Hazard, Kane or Ibrahimovic

I think Gary Neville said Kante is the player he would pick from Chelsea to be at United. Thought it was ridiculous

 

[MadMike]

I don't think there's that much of a difference between them. I don't wish we had Kante and I don't think he should be winning player of the year like some have suggested. That should go to someone like Hazard, Kane or Ibrahimovic

I think Gary Neville said Kante is the player he would pick from Chelsea to be at United. Thought it was ridiculous

It was beyond ridiculous. I would take Costa in a heartbeat and Hazard too. In fact with Herrera doing a very similar job to Kante, I would probably take Matic ahead of him too, with Carrick near retirement.

Gary's punditry has declined since his first season and post his Valencia sacking. The stuff he says, like his defence of Wenger, are bordering on stupid.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You realise there is a logical fallacy in your last paragraph? You mention Chelsea dominating with a midfield 2 and then you mention Chelsea playing 3-4-3. Which is 4 midfielders instead of most teams 3.

The 3 CBs allow the full backs to stay further up and play as midfielders and press further up the pitch. That's part of why that works.

I do watch Chelsea, I have seen Kante's passing improve this season but it's still below most midfielders. It's the simple passes he messes up more often than the long ones from what I see.

Like I said they play with a system that gets the best out of him. They press high with a midfield 4 and that allows Hazard and Co to stay further up the pitch in the danger zone without having to track back too much.

I mean, the two wing backs in the 4 hardly count as midfielders; they patrol the flanks and are never in midfield. It's a very different situation than having a number ten 15 yards ahead who is pressing further up in a zone that otherwise you'd be responsible for, it's not like in a 4-2-3-1 the midfield two are pressing the fullback zones. It's hardly a fallacy.

No he's not. Matic stays positionally deeper. If by more attacking you mean he has more probing/creative distribution, then yes.

If Conte was saving Fabregas, maybe we should have saved Ibra and Real should have saved Ronaldo for the end of the season. The reason why he hans't played so much is because playing Matic and Kante works better. Simple as. No one plays an inferior formation for 2/3ds of the season.

Matic's average position tends to be deeper because he's less mobile, but it's not as though he's constantly the covering player, this is not true.

It's actually interesting that you think that Matic and Kante work better as a partnership; from what I can tell the majority of Chelsea fans actually prefer the partnership of Kante and Fabregas. I know I do, since Fabregas' thrust from midfield gives Chelsea an additional attacking avenue that can be crucial if opponents devote too many resources to covering the flanks against the wingbacks.

 

[Harry190]

At the end of the day, who's gonna win the Premier League twice in a row playing for 2 different teams?

Mind you, I think they're two very different types of players who would do well if they played together. An ultra mobile blitz-styled midfield a la Dortmund 2013.

 

[Mike09]

Carrick has had poor games to the point where he had to be withdrawn at half time. More than once. Even in his bad games Herrera is still irreplaceable on the pitch. And Carrick has had nowhere near the same minutes and influence on games. That's not even a contest.

Either you didn't watch our games or trying to defend your statement with false fact. Apart from Liverpool game, when Carrick had to be withdrawn not because he had poor games but because Jose had to changed the system to be more offensive as the scores were still draw, and Jose decided to swap player who's not offensive mind like Carrick to players who are more offensive mind like Rooney or Lingard or Rashford (which most of the time when we did it, it didn't change the result at all).

Valencia is 3rd behind Herrera for me. Consistent performer but he's been lacking a bit of end product. Especially considering how often he gets in good positions to cross and has a target man the size of Ibra in the box. Against Soton in the final Herrera put a better cross from the right in the end than Valencia did all game.

So your excuse is end product now?
Then what about Herrera? He's been lacking end product as well especially knowing how often he wastes so many of our chances with his terrible shootings instead of going for a pass or produce better shots?
Just like how you used Herrera's stats, Valencia has the most interceptions among of the right back in the league this season.

Valencia is one of the main reason why Mata and Mkhytaryan have so much freedom because he's covering the right flanks spot by himself and if Zlatan, Pogba, Mkhytaryan and the rest didn't missed their chances, Valencia could have more assists.

Of course I would not take Kante over Herrera. Kante + Pogba would be worse than Herrera + Pogba, because Kante needs Matic behind him to cover for him.

If Kante alone offered enough protection as some people claim, then Conte would have been playing Fabregas instead of Matic. Which would be more equivalent to the Pogba + Herrera partnership. But they tried it at Chelsea and it didn't work out.

Kante doesn't need someone to cover him. What happened with Leicester city? He doesn't need Drinkwater to cover him up, he's the one who is covering their midfield last season and made Morgan looked like the best centre back in the league last season. Kante even played with Fabregas against City, and also their last two games against Swansea and West Ham which means he can play with anyone. Everyone know that Kante can cover the ground more than Herrera and that's why they compare him with Makelele!!

 

[Stringer]

At the end of the day, who's gonna win the Premier League twice in a row playing for 2 different teams?

Mind you, I think they're two very different types of players who would do well if they played together. An ultra mobile blitz-styled midfield a la Dortmund 2013.

Do you believe Leicester would be leaders if Kante had stayed with them?

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Do you believe Leicester would be leaders if Kante had stayed with them?

I'm not the fella you asked but if I may answer, I don't think they'd be leading but they'd be far better off, that's for sure. Vardy and Mahrez have clearly regressed which was inevitable; they were playing far above their level. I do think they'd be challenging for a top four spot potentially with Kante, especially since Chelsea wouldn't be running away with the league without him. I would sort of envision a scenario where there would be a total clusterfeck at the top, so Leicester would be in 7th place, perhaps 4-5 points off 1st.

 

[Mike09]

Do you believe Leicester would be leaders if Kante had stayed with them?

Not guarantee a leader again but definitely will be a different story and he could have save Raineri as well. One thing for sure, he was the main man last season and this season he did the same thing to Chelsea. He made a relegation level centre back "Morgan" looked like the best centre back in the league last season and this time he turned a prone errors (Luiz) who was not a long ago being criticised this season against Monaco into high rated centre back.

 

[Jaybomb]

Kante is much better. Its obvious to see.

Herrera is still a good player but not a world class one like Kante. He's on another level and I wish we signed him last summer.

 

[roonster09]

Not guarantee a leader again but definitely will be a different story and he could have save Raineri as well. One thing for sure, he was the main man last season and this season he did the same thing to Chelsea. He made a relegation level centre back "Morgan" looked like the best centre back in the league last season and this time he turned a prone errors (Luiz) who was not a long ago being criticised this season against Monaco into high rated centre back.

Every time this is said when first half of the season Leicester were so poor defensively and the best offensive team in the league.

After 19 games they scored most goals and in defensive they were ranked 13th.

Second half was a different story and You aren't giving any credit to CBs who did superb job. Deeney rated them as the most difficult pair he faced last season as they didn't leave gaps in their position or was pulled wide by any players.

Kate was superb though but because of what happened this season lot of players' performances are sort of re written.

 

[gajender]

Both are very good players though Kante is marginally better than Herrera but the key difference between two is that one is overrated mostly by his team's supporters but other is vastly overrated by media and fans in general. Not hard to guess which one is who.

 

[BlueViper]

Statistically you can show Kante has scored more in the league and has a better shot accuracy, passed a higher percentage of his balls forward than backwards, has further average passing length and both have the same great passing accuracy. Herrera has him beat in key passes/chances created. But based on that you could make a simple case for atleast having a discussion on their attacking play.
But for the same reasons why no one is really going to discuss why Kante isn't as good moving forwards or on the ball as Herrera, a lot of us might not feel that a discussion is necessary in comparing Herrera and Kante in the defensive side of it despite stats.

On the mention of Kante's passing however, while he is typically due to misplace a simple ball at some point in a game, he is pretty decent aside from that. I think the more important aspect of his passing is the speed at which he does it. He switches or moves the ball along at a quick tempo. Compare that to Matic who takes twenty touches too many before sending along a slow pass to a teammate (and of course this is only on his left leg, as he seemingly doesn't want to do anything with his right) and you can see why Chelsea fans adore Kante a lot more on either end of the pitch. Kante's actually been very good for initiating counter attacks for us this season as he disposes of the ball very, very quickly.

 

[Mike09]

Every time this is said when first half of the season Leicester were so poor defensively and the best offensive team in the league.

After 19 games they scored most goals and in defensive they were ranked 13th.

Second half was a different story and You aren't giving any credit to CBs who did superb job. Deeney rated them as the most difficult pair he faced last season as they didn't leave gaps in their position or was pulled wide by any players.

Kate was superb though but because of what happened this season lot of players' performances are sort of re written.

I don't think being praised or rated by Deeney is a great thing. Sir Alex did say Kante is his player of the season last season.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Herrera is our Kante. Whether he's as good as Kante, I don't know, but he certainly has a similar play style, i.e. pressing, tackles, interceptions, covers ground, etc.

However, Kante, at both, Chelsea and Leicester has had a players beside him who protects the back four. Herrera, on the other hand, has Pogba, who does most, if not, all of the attacking, which means he can't always press, as he'll have no one behind him.

This is why I feel it's no surprise that Herrera is better when we play Carrick, as it means he is given the licence to run around and break up play, knowing he has someone behind him.

 

[BonkersIam]

Both are very good players though Kante is marginally better than Herrera but the key difference between two is that one is overrated mostly by his team's supporters but other is vastly overrated by media and fans in general. Not hard to guess which one is who.

go on then...i give up

 

[BonkersIam]

Of course I would not take Kante over Herrera. Kante + Pogba would be worse than Herrera + Pogba, because Kante needs Matic behind him to cover for him.

If Kante alone offered enough protection as some people claim, then Conte would have been playing Fabregas instead of Matic. Which would be more equivalent to the Pogba + Herrera partnership. But they tried it at Chelsea and it didn't work out.

Or Matic needed Kante.
What has he done for last 3 games? Its 'horse for courses'

 

[roonster09]

I don't think being praised or rated by Deeney is a great thing. Sir Alex did say Kante is his player of the season last season.

Why? Because it doesn't suit your narrative?

It shows how compact Leicester were defensively last season. They took no risks, stayed compact and backed themselves defending in the box than chasing the attackers to wide positions, at least for defenders.

 

[Varun]

Comparing Herrera to Kante is borderline blasphemous.

One is a consecutive premier league title winner the other is an average midfielder who's ability is clouded by his passion and personality.

I will be seriously annoyed and worried if he is still in our strongest 11 come next season. Great option in the team but is nowhere near good enough for our future ambitions.

As long as you're not confused and angry, we're all good.

 

[Mike09]

Why? Because it doesn't suit your narrative?

It shows how compact Leicester were defensively last season. They took no risks, stayed compact and backed themselves defending in the box than chasing the attackers to wide positions, at least for defenders.

Seriously? You are asking why!? This is what has gone wrong with nowdays standard. Deeney would have said so because that's the level of his standard. What about if we ask someone with the higher standard and quality who have faced them last season like Kane, Aguero and Costa? Have they say the same thing??

 

[roonster09]

Seriously? You are asking why!? This is what has gone wrong with nowdays standard. Deeney would have said so because that's the level of his standard. What about if we ask someone with the higher standard and quality who have faced them last season like Kane, Aguero and Costa? Have they say the same thing??

No one asked them so no one knows what their answer is.

Anyways you are missing the point here. It's about how the team was set up defensively and very narrow. Their defensive record wasn't down to 1 player, it was a team effort.

 

[Mike09]

No one asked them so no one knows what their answer is.

It's not just doesn't suit my standard but it doesn't sound right that we have to ackowledge Morgan and Huth to be one of the best or most solid centre backs in one of the best league because one of the mid table or bottom table level of striker said so. Drogba and RVP said Rio and Vidic are the toughest defenders they ever faced, that's more convincing than Deeney rated Morgan and Huth were his toughest paired he faced last season. Seriously Deeney last season were being bullied and stopped by Fosu Mensah!!

 

[Nighteyes]

Herrera is much better than Kante who's getting overrated to extraordinary levels.

 

[roonster09]

It's not just doesn't suit my standard but it doesn't sound right that we have to ackowledge Morgan and Huth to be one of the best or most solid centre backs in one of the best league because one of the mid table or bottom table level of striker said so. Drogba and RVP said Rio and Vidic are the toughest defenders they ever faced, that's more convincing than Deeney rated Morgan and Huth were his toughest paired he faced last season. Seriously Deeney last season were being bullied and stopped by Fosu Mensah!!

They might be midtable players like Mahrez, Vardy but last season they all played way beyond their levels. Again the point is not just CBs, it's about how the team was set up. So Kante wasn't making them look better than they were, it's the way they played staying compact.

 

[Womp]

Herrera is much better than Kante who's getting overrated to extraordinary levels.

Better maybe, but much better is being silly

 

[Treble_Winning]

No he's not. Matic stays positionally deeper. If by more attacking you mean he has more probing/creative distribution, then yes.

If Conte was saving Fabregas, maybe we should have saved Ibra and Real should have saved Ronaldo for the end of the season. The reason why he hans't played so much is because playing Matic and Kante works better. Simple as. No one plays an inferior formation for 2/3ds of the season.

Or maybe Jose has a point and Conte is fundamentally a conservative and defensive coach who is benching one of the most creative players in the league because he lacks the courage to approach games positively? He asks his wing backs to push all the way up but it's based on tactical positioning and drills. He has not allowed any of their players the freedom to express themselves except Hazard. Everyone else sticks strictly to his playbook. I can see how that might work against weaker teams but it's no wonder that he hasn't been very impressive in head to head match ups with better teams. If he doesn't take off the shackles they won't be going very far in the CL.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Or maybe Jose has a point and Conte is fundamentally a conservative and defensive coach who is benching one of the most creative players in the league because he lacks the courage to approach games positively? He asks his wing backs to push all the way up but it's based on tactical positioning and drills. He has not allowed any of their players the freedom to express themselves except Hazard. Everyone else sticks strictly to his playbook. I can see how that might work against weaker teams but it's no wonder that he hasn't been very impressive in head to head match ups with better teams. If he doesn't take off the shackles they won't be going very far in the CL.

3-1 at Man City?
4-0 vs Man United?
2-1 vs Spurs?
3-1 vs Arsenal?
5-0 vs Everton?
1-1 at Liverpool despite missing a penalty?

These aren't impressive results?

Hilarious that Jose is calling Conte a defensive coach despite Chelsea scoring 18 more goals than United this season. It's also funny you should mention Hazard being allowed to express himself, since it really is in stark contrast to his previous manager, one Jose Mourinho, who insisted on him hugging the left touchline and tracking back, not expressing himself at all. Really a stark contrast to this season. Interesting also that you omitted Pedro, who has been a different player this season, probably the best right winger in the league because he's been allowed to express himself and play further up the pitch and centrally.

But you're right, maybe if Conte had agreed to be Jose's assistant for this season he could have learned how to set up a team to allow his creative players to express themselves more yet have his team score 46% fewer goals.

 

[SidRed]

Kante is a world class DM. Herrera is more of a b2b type with better passing ability than Kante. But if I had to take only one for a 3 man midfield it would be Kante.