Ander Herrera vs N'golo Kanté | Thread has gone well

RedSky said:
It's a crazy world when the newbies on here are making more sense than the regulars. :)
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The thing is as well majority of chelsea fans probably would tend to agree that herrera is underrated and that he doesnt get praise for his acheivements but when you have posters as stupid as treble ramming there point across about herrera being the superior player because hes acheived similar levels over a much smaller period of time its just exasperating really.

I also think that kante is going to improve immensely over the next few years conte has already so clearly identified that kante needs to work on attacking aspects of his game and has openly talked of making him a more rounded player.
 
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As has been pointed out there's a fair bit stats will often not say about a player. Kante may be similar in regards to certain aspects of his game stats wise like tackling and interceptions...but I'd be interested to know how much ground he covers alone because his frighteningly good stamina and ability to just keep on working and running must be a nightmare for teams to deal with in itself. If you're aware of a player in the other team who's able to cover a lot of distance in a short amount of time, and you're aware that they can do it consistently, then it would surely make you rethink where/who you're passing the ball to and may deter you from looking for the riskier option.

Of course, haven't seen the stats on that one...so I could be wrong and perhaps Herrera's covering more ground in comparison to Kante than I'd have thought, but I'd say Kante's the comfortably better player. Herrera's been very good, right enough, and is having his best season for us, and he's a vastly different type of player to Kante...but yeah, Kante's comfortably better right now.
 
I would go as far as to say Kante could be the best defensive midfielder in the world right now or at least is in the conversation as to who is, Herrera, outside of Man United fans, won't be mentioned.
 
Herrera is the better player obviously.

Non-United fans and pretty much the rest of football are just to stupid to see it and obviously conspired to overrate Kante and underrate Herrera.

Thank heavens I've got the objective United fans on the redcafe who can truly see things they way they are and expose the fraud of rating Kante higher.
 
The majority have said Kante and rightly so.

There's the very vocal minority in favour of Herrera.
 
Don _ Conte said:
The thing is as well majority of chelsea fans probably would tend to agree that herrera is underrated and that he doesnt get praise for his acheivements but when you have posters as stupid as treble ramming there point across about herrera being the superior player because hes acheived similar levels over a much smaller period of time its just exasperating really.

I also think that kante is going to improve immensely over the next few years conte has already so clearly identified that kante needs to work on attacking aspects of his game and has openly talked of making him a more rounded player.
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Herreras a decent player but nothing more than that imo. Whereas Kante is about to get back to back titles for two different clubs.

Here's an interesting stat, since Kante joined the Premier League he has started in 59 games in the Premier League completing 90 minutes in 56 games. He has been part of the winning team in 40 of those games (67.8%) and lost only 6 (10.2%).
 
vi1lain said:
No I don't believe Chelsea would be top of the league (and that's not just because of Kante), you shouldn't make assumptions about my 'lack of committal', what kind of round about logic is that? You're the one who started talking about league positions and hypothetical situations, not me.

Watching Kante play for Leicester last season and Chelsea this season he does far more impressive things defensively than Herrera, also he has a better work rate at both ends of the pitch - in my opinion, which is why I rate him higher than Herrera.
It has nothing to do with league table positions, or the teams/system they play in or what manager or club they play for.
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You've stated Kante winning back to back premier league titles as a reason why he's better than Herrera yet you've refuse to qualify that in anyway. If it doesn't matter then why bring it up?

It's not difficult logic to follow really. I've asked you a very simple question and you did everything but answer it, not hard to grasp.
vi1lain said:
Sorry, I love Ander like most of us do

But Kante is about to win back to back PL titles...
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ivaldo said:
You've stated Kante winning back to back premier league titles as a reason why he's better than Herrera yet you've refuse to qualify that in anyway. If it doesn't matter then why bring it up?

It's not difficult logic to follow really. I've asked you a very simple question and you did everything but answer it, not hard to grasp.
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I didn't state it as the reason why he was a better player, I stated it as a matter of fact, just like Herrera struggling to get back-to-back Spain call ups was a matter of fact, and overall the post was lighthearted and tongue in cheek, and a play on the term 'back-to-back'.
My other posts in the thread have explained why I believe Kante is the better player, but Herrera is better offensively.

Not quite sure why you seem so taken aback by my posts.
 
Kentonio said:
I'm not sure where this idea came from that Kante struggled at the start of the season. No he didn't. He stood out from the first game of the season as something special that we'd been badly lacking. He's become more influential since the formation change, and obviously the whole teams level has risen markedly, but he was damn good from day one.

This whole idea that Kante is 'wildly overrated' that people talk about, just reminds me of Makelele. People said exactly the same things about him, because they didn't understand that a player can be the vital heart of a team without being a flair player. Ask Real Madrid and Zidane about how that works.
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No I understand what he does and his role, hence why I and others rate Herrera, another player who isn't a flair player?

He is overrated though. Not to say he isn't a very, very good player, but we have a player in Herrera who is performing to the same level yet he's heavily criticised. Kante against I think Spurs was a prime example of this loftly level he's been held to, despite giving the ball away and being beaten several times in the first half the pundits and this place were waxing lyrical about him, he can do no wrong.
 
They are different players. Kante is clearly the better defensive midfielder but Herrera is slightly better offensively. Both very good players and probably 2 of the most important players for each team. I am a Herrera fan but Kante just shades it overall.
 
vi1lain said:
I didn't state it as the reason why he was a better player, I stated it as a matter of fact, just like Herrera struggling to get back-to-back Spain call ups was a matter of fact, and overall the post was lighthearted and tongue in cheek, and a play on the term 'back-to-back'.
My other posts in the thread have explained why I believe Kante is the better player, but Herrera is better offensively.

Not quite sure why you seem so taken aback by my posts.
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We are discussing who is better between the two, a statement of fact generally has something to do with the context of the thread.
 
You would think someone who take this thread down before it's up on RAWK.
 
Cheesy said:
As has been pointed out there's a fair bit stats will often not say about a player. Kante may be similar in regards to certain aspects of his game stats wise like tackling and interceptions...but I'd be interested to know how much ground he covers alone because his frighteningly good stamina and ability to just keep on working and running must be a nightmare for teams to deal with in itself. If you're aware of a player in the other team who's able to cover a lot of distance in a short amount of time, and you're aware that they can do it consistently, then it would surely make you rethink where/who you're passing the ball to and may deter you from looking for the riskier option.

Of course, haven't seen the stats on that one...so I could be wrong and perhaps Herrera's covering more ground in comparison to Kante than I'd have thought, but I'd say Kante's the comfortably better player. Herrera's been very good, right enough, and is having his best season for us, and he's a vastly different type of player to Kante...but yeah, Kante's comfortably better right now.
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This. His engine is something else and the way he denies the other team any space and ground is on a different level than Herrera.
 
Same can be said about Fernandinho. He is vastly underrated.
 
Funnily enough I would have several Chelsea players ahead of Kante let alone in the whole league. So Caf logic says that Kane is overrated because he hasn't done overly well in th CL but Kante who's never even played in the fecking thing is all that. Ok.
 
ivaldo said:
We are discussing who is better between the two, a statement of fact generally has something to do with the context of the thread.
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Like I said, it was pretty much a joke and a play on words of the phrase 'back to back', and I still don't understand why you're so taken aback by it, I've already explained that I don't believe Kante is better than Herrera because of the back to back titles.
 
vi1lain said:
Like I said, it was pretty much a joke and a play on words of the phrase 'back to back', and I still don't understand why you're so taken aback by it, I've already explained that I don't believe Kante is better than Herrera because of the back to back titles.
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I'm not taken aback by it, I questioned it. Thats all :confused:
 
RedChip said:
Don't know; it isn't as if neutrals are without bias. The notion of Kante as world class is now pervasive. It is like Chuck Norris: only aliens can question his invincibility!
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Yes, I too believe Kante is the new Chuck Norris, at least in Redcafe.
 
roonster09 said:
So teams were built on Kante's strengths? Nothing to do with Hazard and his free role then.
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You know there is a possibility to build a team around more players' strengths, yeah?
Kante is a player who takes care of more defensive responsibility then maybe anyone in the league allowing more attacking players into a team's lineup and freeing them up to a certain extent.
 
jetlee said:
You know there is a possibility to build a team around more players' strengths, yeah?
Kante is a player who takes care of more defensive responsibility then maybe anyone in the league allowing more attacking players into a team's lineup and freeing them up to a certain extent.
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That's very much not what happened at Chelsea.
 
ivaldo said:
I'm not taken aback by it, I questioned it. Thats all :confused:
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vi1lain said:
I'm not suggesting that Kante is the only reason Chelsea are top of the table,
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The first time I responded to your question, I addressed this. Yet you continued to make assumptions about what I was saying, and talk in hypothetical situations about Chelsea having Herrera instead of Kante. And it's not like my opinion is unique or extreme in any way either.
 
roonster09 said:
That's very much not what happened at Chelsea.
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Care to elaborate please? One of the main problems Mou faced at Chelsea was to free up Hazard so he can thrive. For a season he can trust that role to Matic but it seems that he burnt out for last season.
I think the reason Luis can be effective in that lineup can also be partly down to Kante and also to the 3-men central defence.
All in all failing to even acknowledge his role is a bit ignorant for me.
 
jetlee said:
Care to elaborate please? One of the main problems Mou faced at Chelsea was to free up Hazard so he can thrive. For a season he can trust that role to Matic but it seems that he burnt out for last season.
I think the reason Luis can be effective in that lineup can also be partly down to Kante and also to the 3-men central defence.
All in all failing to even acknowledge his role is a bit ignorant for me.
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Chelsea plays with 3CBs and 2 defensive mids, that's the reason why Hazard, Pedro have little defensive duty.

Your post is sort of an example why Kante is so overrated here. Everything is down to 1 player and nothing to do with system or class players like Hazard, Costa.
 
roonster09 said:
Chelsea plays with 3CBs and 2 defensive mids, that's the reason why Hazard, Pedro have little defensive duty.

Your post is sort of an example why Kante is so overrated here. Everything is down to 1 player and nothing to do with system or class players like Hazard, Costa.
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But I've never close to said what you're implying here.
I just said he was a vital cog at Leicester and also one at Chelsea. And I don't know where that overrated tag comes from because reading just this thread almost half of the contributors are hounding out everyone who has a positive thing to say about the guy.
He is a good player please deal with it. Him being good doesn't make any United player worse so no one should go out of his way to dismiss Kante.
 
Red Ryan said:
I would go as far as to say Kante could be the best defensive midfielder in the world right now or at least is in the conversation as to who is, Herrera, outside of Man United fans, won't be mentioned.
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You can't be the best defensive midfielder in the world if you've never seen the walls of Champions League Football.
 
Cheesy said:
Of course, haven't seen the stats on that one...so I could be wrong and perhaps Herrera's covering more ground in comparison to Kante than I'd have thought, but I'd say Kante's the comfortably better player. Herrera's been very good, right enough, and is having his best season for us, and he's a vastly different type of player to Kante...but yeah, Kante's comfortably better right now.
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As of mid January, Kante covered 11.57km per game while Herrera covered only 10.15km. Interestingly Pogba, who many deride as lazy and lacking in commitment, outscores Herrera in this category at 10.88km per game. Source.
 
Varun said:
He would not make us win the league which makes your post about the league position wrt Herrera's quality pointless.
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So if a player were to join us and was unable by himself to make us win the league, they'd be a pointless signing? Cool logic, thanks for that insightful reply.
Guy is going to have won the league back to back with different teams. He obviously has made a major difference to the teams he plays for. Can't say the same for Herrera. Good player yes, brilliant player no.
 
What the feck is this back-to-back titles bollox all about? How is this even relevant to anything whatsoever.
 
Robbie Boy said:
What the feck is this back-to-back titles bollox all about? How is this even relevant to anything whatsoever.
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Shame that logic isn't used for Cahill.
 
Akshay said:
As of mid January, Kante covered 11.57km per game while Herrera covered only 10.15km. Interestingly Pogba, who many deride as lazy and lacking in commitment, outscores Herrera in this category at 10.88km per game. Source.
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This goes back to what I was saying about Herrera having the best positional awareness but Kante being easily the superior athlete.

Herrera has more interceptions, blocks and clearances per 90 mins than Kante despite covering 15% less ground. He has a better tackle and duel success %. He is simply more intelligent about where to be, when to press, when to get stuck in and when to retreat.

Kante's non-stop running does help suffocate teams more but that doesn't mean it would work in midfield two with a more attacking partner when he has no one to cover for him.

In fact I believe he has played in a midfield 2 with Pogba for France and it wasn't pretty. That's why Matuidi played there in the Euros last summer. @JPRouve may correct me if I'm wrong
 
It'll be interesting when Chelsea are in CL, whether Kante can play with same style 3 games in a week.
 
Red_toad said:
So if a player were to join us and was unable by himself to make us win the league, they'd be a pointless signing? Cool logic, thanks for that insightful reply.
Guy is going to have won the league back to back with different teams. He obviously has made a major difference to the teams he plays for. Can't say the same for Herrera. Good player yes, brilliant player no.
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I have absolutely no idea how you got that but ok.
 
I think Kante is better than Herrera, although not by as much as some people think. Stats do not tell the whole story, but they give a good insight on the performance of a player in a season, and stats show that Herrera is having a very good season. If Herrera could keep these performance levels till the end of the season, then we could start comparing him to Kante, untill then I don't think he is comparable to Kante.

Also, comparing league position of a team to prove which player is better is just stupid, and Kante would have made no difference to the ineptness shown from our attackers.
 
MadMike said:
This goes back to what I was saying about Herrera having the best positional awareness but Kante being easily the superior athlete.

Herrera has more interceptions, blocks and clearances per 90 mins than Kante despite covering 15% less ground. He has a better tackle and duel success %. He is simply more intelligent about where to be, when to press, when to get stuck in and when to retreat.

Kante's non-stop running does help suffocate teams more but that doesn't mean it would work in midfield two with a more attacking partner when he has no one to cover for him.

In fact I believe he has played in a midfield 2 with Pogba for France and it wasn't pretty. That's why Matuidi played there in the Euros last summer. @JPRouve may correct me if I'm wrong
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You are wrong, Matuidi played because Deschamps values loyalty. Matuidi served him very well and Kanté as a newbie needs to earn his place which wasn't going to happen just before the tournament. Same thing for the fullbacks.
 
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