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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


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FYI - this huge march in London on Saturday will get hijacked by Trump/BrExit bashing, if anyone wants to indulge. I'm going to take photos and scream some obscenities.

It's the Defend Free Movement that is so hypocritical.

Does the EU allow unlimited number of economic migrants from Africa or Asia to freely settle in, say, France or Germany or Luxemburg without having a job offer first ??

Of course not - but apparently that's not considered as racist.
 
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Peter Navarro uses it because Trump needs scapegoats he can blame the misfortune of his supporters on. The Euro (or even the D-Mark) wouldn't have been possible without the US and its role in Europe, the same is true for the EU. Both of which are hugely beneficial to the US (And has been viewed as such by every administration up to 2 months ago, even Trump will come around to it eventually).

Again, why is the UK so fixated on a strong pound, if all it takes is a weak currency? There is nothing holding the UK back other then some minor changes in monetary policy... if it were true.
 
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But it's not just Navarro....

Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, said the country had no influence over the euro exchange rate.
“I neither want to nor can I do something to change the situation,” she told reporters in Stockholm.
Mario Draghi, the ECB's president, has warned that the country's persistent current account surplus has contributed to imbalances and hindered growth in the eurozone.
Analysis by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) suggests the euro is trading below its "fair value".
Data published by the Paris-based think-tank shows the the euro is the most undervalued currency among the dollar's major peers.


Not sure the UK is fixated by a strong pound - it needs a weak pound to encourage exports in order to survive post Brexit and to encourage cheap, inward investment. And as you say, seems to be doing a pretty good job at keeping the FX Rate for £ fairly low.

The fixation appears to be more with many of the anti-Brexit posters on here and elsewhere who moan constantly about the FX rate for £ <> € and £ <> $. They have a point, of course. But at one point in 2008, the £ <> € FX Rate fell to 1.022 - the UK survived, and by end of 2015 the rate was back up to 1.359, which was unsustainable with or without Brexit.

And notice that there hasn't been too much noise about the weak £ from anti-Brexit politicians - none of them are demanding that the Government does something to improve the FX rate of £.

At the end of the day, in the 21st century it's the spivs, sharks and speculators in the markets who determine FX rates and I suspect both Germany and the UK are quite happy with the current FX Rates and are not going to do anything much to change them if they can leave it up to the markets and so can avoid having to disadvantage themselves.
 
But it's not just Navarro....

Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, said the country had no influence over the euro exchange rate.
“I neither want to nor can I do something to change the situation,” she told reporters in Stockholm.
Mario Draghi, the ECB's president, has warned that the country's persistent current account surplus has contributed to imbalances and hindered growth in the eurozone.
Analysis by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) suggests the euro is trading below its "fair value".
Data published by the Paris-based think-tank shows the the euro is the most undervalued currency among the dollar's major peers.


Not sure the UK is fixated by a strong pound - it needs a weak pound to encourage exports in order to survive post Brexit and to encourage cheap, inward investment. And as you say, seems to be doing a pretty good job at keeping the FX Rate for £ fairly low.

The fixation appears to be more with many of the anti-Brexit posters on here and elsewhere who moan constantly about the FX rate for £ <> € and £ <> $. They have a point, of course. But at one point in 2008, the £ <> € FX Rate fell to 1.022 - the UK survived, and by end of 2015 the rate was back up to 1.359, which was unsustainable with or without Brexit.

And notice that there hasn't been too much noise about the weak £ from anti-Brexit politicians - none of them are demanding that the Government does something to improve the FX rate of £.

At the end of the day, in the 21st century it's the spivs, sharks and speculators in the markets who determine FX rates and I suspect both Germany and the UK are quite happy with the current FX Rates and are not going to do anything much to change them if they can leave it up to the markets and so can avoid having to disadvantage themselves.
Yes and no. Sterling weakness obviously means higher input costs and importing inflation. If it does pick up further, the BoE will be wary of raising rates given the fragility of the economy. The flipside obviously is the attractiveness of letting inflation tick up to help lower the national debt. Carney needs to be a supreme tightrope-walker to get us through this unscathed.
 
Yes and no. Sterling weakness obviously means higher input costs and importing inflation. If it does pick up further, the BoE will be wary of raising rates given the fragility of the economy. The flipside obviously is the attractiveness of letting inflation tick up to help lower the national debt. Carney needs to be a supreme tightrope-walker to get us through this unscathed.


Can't help thinking that Carney is a fraud.

He agreed with Cameron about a post-Brexit apocalypse.

Then he agreed with May about the wonderful opportunities for the UK post-Brexit.

I hope he's a better tight rope walker than he's proving to be an independent Governor of the BoE.
 
It's the Defend Free Movement that is so hypocritical.

Does the EU allow unlimited number of economic migrants from Africa or Asia to freely settle in, say, France or Germany or Luxemburg without having a job offer first ??

Of course not - but apparently that's not considered as racist.

Do these countries offer freedom of movement to Europeans? Some are openly racists (ex Zimbabwe) and most cnt even bother take their own people back (failed asylum seekers) and that despite the fact that the eu pump millions in their economy for that sole purpose
 
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Can't help thinking that Carney is a fraud.

He agreed with Cameron about a post-Brexit apocalypse.

Then he agreed with May about the wonderful opportunities for the UK post-Brexit.

I hope he's a better tight rope walker than he's proving to be an independent Governor of the BoE.

The guy carries heavy responsibility for the continued stability of the UK economy. What exactly did you expect him to do after the referendum? Turn around and start going 'Well this is madness, we're all doomed!!'? He did exactly what you'd want the head of the BoE to do, he put out a calming, positive statement to try and prevent panic from setting it. It doesn't mean he suddenly changed his mind overnight.
 
But it's not just Navarro....

Angela Merkel, Germany’s chancellor, said the country had no influence over the euro exchange rate.
“I neither want to nor can I do something to change the situation,” she told reporters in Stockholm.
Mario Draghi, the ECB's president, has warned that the country's persistent current account surplus has contributed to imbalances and hindered growth in the eurozone.
Analysis by the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) suggests the euro is trading below its "fair value".
Data published by the Paris-based think-tank shows the the euro is the most undervalued currency among the dollar's major peers.

Those are three separate quotes from different sources right? (Just for my comprehension).
1. Of course Merkel can't change the euro exchange rate. Trump can't change the dollar exchange rate either. No semi-decent democracy lets it's exchange rate be played with by its political leaders... And the Euro isn't just Germany's currency, it's the common currency of 19 independent countries who all had to agree on terms of how to govern it...

2. Mario Draghi wants Germany to import more from other eurozone members (I agree with him)... Not sure how that fits into your narrative though. The exchange rate with the rest of the world doesn't change much about that, in fact an unduly weak euro would encourage imports from inside the EU as opposed to say from the UK/US.

3. Nothing ever trades below it's fair value. The value of anything is defined by what it is trading for. There's people claiming they know better than the markets... doesn't make them right.

Not sure the UK is fixated by a strong pound - it needs a weak pound to encourage exports in order to survive post Brexit and to encourage cheap, inward investment. And as you say, seems to be doing a pretty good job at keeping the FX Rate for £ fairly low.
My observation that the UK is fixated on a strong pound is mostly anecdotal and from personal experience (which is obviously limited by my limited knowledge about other countries), so i'd concede that . However, I know no other country where the exchange rate is permanently displayed on news television (like it is in Sky News) or makes the news quite as often... or is discussed in public so much. But then again that observation might just be wrong on my end because I understand English and consume British media while I don't understand the languages of all the other major economies (Except for USA, Australia, NZ of course).


But at one point in 2008, the £ <> € FX Rate fell to 1.022 - the UK survived, and by end of 2015 the rate was back up to 1.359, which was unsustainable with or without Brexit.
Fair enough.
And notice that there hasn't been too much noise about the weak £ from anti-Brexit politicians - none of them are demanding that the Government does something to improve the FX rate of £.

At the end of the day, in the 21st century it's the spivs, sharks and speculators in the markets who determine FX rates and I suspect both Germany and the UK are quite happy with the current FX Rates and are not going to do anything much to change them if they can leave it up to the markets and so can avoid having to disadvantage themselves.
Why keep banging on about an 'undervalued' Euro then?

Do these countries offer freedom of movement to Europeans? Some are openly racists (ex Zimbabwe) and most cnt even bother take their own people back (failed asylum seekers) and that despite the fact that the eu pump millions in their economy for that sole purpose
That wasn't my post you quoted. I don't mind much, however would like to point out that the post in your quote isn't my point of view at all :).
 
That wasn't my post you quoted. I don't mind much, however would like to point out that the post in your quote isn't my point of view at all :).

Upps, sorry! I corrected it
 
The guy carries heavy responsibility for the continued stability of the UK economy. What exactly did you expect him to do after the referendum? Turn around and start going 'Well this is madness, we're all doomed!!'? He did exactly what you'd want the head of the BoE to do, he put out a calming, positive statement to try and prevent panic from setting it. It doesn't mean he suddenly changed his mind overnight.


Yes....He did what was necessary, thankfully.

But he twists and turns like a twisty turning thing on lots of issues - Brexit, inflation, FX rates, etc, etc.

King wasn't always right - but he was consistant.
 
ABIZZ....

No, the quotes are all from the same article which I linked to.

The FX Rate for the € factors in strong economies such as Germany and Netherlands, but also basket case economies such as Greece and the potential banking meltdown in Italy.

At the moment, lots of people believe that Germany is getting a cheap ride on the backs of what used to be called the PIGS and the markets are more concerned / worried about what could go wrong in Greece and Italy than they are correctly reflecting the performance of the German economy.
 
ABIZZ....

No, the quotes are all from the same article which I linked to.

The FX Rate for the € factors in strong economies such as Germany and Netherlands, but also basket case economies such as Greece and the potential banking meltdown in Italy.

At the moment, lots of people believe that Germany is getting a cheap ride on the backs of what used to be called the PIGS and the markets are more concerned / worried about what could go wrong in Greece and Italy than they are correctly reflecting the performance of the German economy.

Yes the € exrate factors in all the economies in the Eurozone, ie the confidence in the Eurozone as a whole.
The £ exrate factors only the confidence in the UK economy.

When the Euro was introduced the exrate was €1.60/£1 and stayed above €1.40 until the crash in 2008 - the Pound nosedived against the Euro and the USD.
As the Uk economy improved the confidence in Sterling improved over the following years and the £ exrate improved to reach €1.43/£1 in November 2015.
Since the worry about a possible Brexit before the vote and another nosedive after the vote , we are where we are today.

The £/USD has nosedived even more.
People talk about currencies being overvalued or undervalued, what therefore is the correct value, it doesn't exist.

If the GBP stayed where it is now, it can be sustainable and under normal circumstances if the UK economy improved, it may have gained again over time.

We are hearing that the UK economy is in fantastic shape and that it will be even better when it leaves the EU from Brexiters, fine if the markets agree with this opinion. If they don't, which is why the Pound has fallen so much over the past year then the fall may be far from over.
If the Pound did nosedive again, would this be sustainable around parity with the USD or €?

Yes it has dipped to near those levels in the past but only for very brief periods of time. If it was the norm it couldn't be sustainable.

The Uk being self-sufficient and having a zero defecit is highly unlikely and the more likely scenario is the defecit will increase if the economy stalled because of Brexit.

No-one can be proved right or wrong until the Uk leave the EU.
 
The guy carries heavy responsibility for the continued stability of the UK economy. What exactly did you expect him to do after the referendum? Turn around and start going 'Well this is madness, we're all doomed!!'? He did exactly what you'd want the head of the BoE to do, he put out a calming, positive statement to try and prevent panic from setting it. It doesn't mean he suddenly changed his mind overnight.

That was left to the caf to do
 
Can't help thinking that Carney is a fraud.

He agreed with Cameron about a post-Brexit apocalypse.

Then he agreed with May about the wonderful opportunities for the UK post-Brexit.

I hope he's a better tight rope walker than he's proving to be an independent Governor of the BoE.


Carney is just a mainstream monetary economist and does what all mainstream monetary economist do. With all its benefits and with all its fault. Yet while Yellen looks like an owl in headlights and Draghi is the evil Goldman banker, he is fairly charismatic.

Having an undervalued/overvalued currency both creates welfare loses. The idea that an undervalued currency is good for a country comes from people who see the trade balance of a country as score-card: Exports are your goals, imports the goals of the opponents and the difference is the score. This view is just bonkers and far outside both the mainstream of economics and common sense. Peter Navarro might believe something like that but he is nuts.
It is true so that the Euro is fairly undervalued at the moment, while the US$ will continue to be strong in the short-term.
 
This just isn't true though... If it were true, why is the UK so fixated on having a 'strong' pound? A stronger currency would simply reduce the numbers in a global economy... There is almost nothing produced in Germany that wasn't sourced somewhere else first. In my opinion it's not just wrong to claim, it's used deliberately as a piece of propaganda.

Re this post and the other points you make.

I'm not saying the Euro is undervalued, it may be but that is not my point.

I'm saying the value of German production is underpriced because it is inside the Eurozone.

Where would the DMark be against the pound and a German free Euro right now if Germany wasn't in the Euro do you think?

Just because all the countries in the Euro agreed to join the Euro doesn't mean they were right to do so. I think the Greeks have shown that particular line of logic is deeply flawed.

Also, I'm not saying that the entire economy of any country is helped by lower or higher exchange rates but it is the case that holding a lower exchange rate, than the value of your production would otherwise determine in a free market, is a huge advantage in trade while holding an exchange rate higher is detrimental.

That is what the Euro is, a fixed exchange rate which is the Germans biggest advantage in production and trade. No matter how well its economy does the natural balance of a rising currency is negated absolutely within the Eurozone and largely mitigated in trade outside of the Euro. Long term the other countries with weaker economies are screwed and I haven't heard of any mechanism being proposed which would offset this at all.

Finally, rules were put in place on trade surpluses which Germany is breaking and the result is that absolutely nothing will be done about it. Meanwhile, Germany runs a 15 to 18 billion Euro per month trade surplus and if anyone points this out its called propaganda.
 
Re this post and the other points you make.

I'm not saying the Euro is undervalued, it may be but that is not my point.

I'm saying the value of German production is underpriced because it is inside the Eurozone.

Where would the DMark be against the pound and a German free Euro right now if Germany wasn't in the Euro do you think?

Just because all the countries in the Euro agreed to join the Euro doesn't mean they were right to do so. I think the Greeks have shown that particular line of logic is deeply flawed.

Also, I'm not saying that the entire economy of any country is helped by lower or higher exchange rates but it is the case that holding a lower exchange rate, than the value of your production would otherwise determine in a free market, is a huge advantage in trade while holding an exchange rate higher is detrimental.

That is what the Euro is, a fixed exchange rate which is the Germans biggest advantage in production and trade. No matter how well its economy does the natural balance of a rising currency is negated absolutely within the Eurozone and largely mitigated in trade outside of the Euro. Long term the other countries with weaker economies are screwed and I haven't heard of any mechanism being proposed which would offset this at all.

Finally, rules were put in place on trade surpluses which Germany is breaking and the result is that absolutely nothing will be done about it. Meanwhile, Germany runs a 15 to 18 billion Euro per month trade surplus and if anyone points this out its called propaganda.

First of all, a lot of that is true for the Dollar as well. There are vast differences inside the US and by that logic, goods from California also enjoy an undervalued currency.

Second of all, it's not like we are not trying to reduce it, it would actually be better for our economy. It's just not working for various reasons.
 
First of all, a lot of that is true for the Dollar as well. There are vast differences inside the US and by that logic, goods from California also enjoy an undervalued currency.

Second of all, it's not like we are not trying to reduce it, it would actually be better for our economy. It's just not working for various reasons.

The US analogy doesn't work due to the lack of fiscal unity in Europe as well as the practical bar to movement of labour presented by 20+ languages. German industry is doing very well from what is effectively an undervalued Mark.
 
The US analogy doesn't work due to the lack of fiscal unity in Europe as well as the practical bar to movement of labour presented by 20+ languages. German industry is doing very well from what is effectively an undervalued Mark.

It helps but it's not the only reason Germany is such a success. Japan has a free floating currency and they are doing fine
 
It helps but it's not the only reason Germany is such a success. Japan has a free floating currency and they are doing fine

But Japan's recent model has been QE on steroids.

I am not denigrating the German economy - they have an enviable industrial base and skilled workforce. But that just emphasises that they shouldn't be in a currency bloc with Club Med.
 
Your thoughts and experiences...My thoughts and experiences below.


Argentinian Malbec - wish I could find cough syrup which tastes as good, but each to his own, etc. Sure they might put their price up, but unless Chile, USA, Sth Africa, Australia and NZ do so as well, then that'd be economic suicide and so no tears shed for them if they do.

Market wise all will be able to increase prices and may need to if demand from their region goes up. That's how supply and demand naturally works.

No too sure I understand what the problem is with your supplements. You will still be able to buy from China or pay four times as much buying from the EU after BREXIT, no ?

For me personally there wouldn't be, aside from tarrifs to the EU I'll be okay. But I'm making a case for the free trade argument. What about the businesses reliant on trade from the EU?

The car company you mention is no different to lots of similar, smaller companies in the EU, who will pay more for what they buy from the UK and will sell less to the UK because of Tariffs. Harsh, but it's the EU who will insist on tariffs - the UK would be more than happy to contnue tariff free trade.

Except the EU market is much much bigger so EU sellers and buyers will generally be hit less hard than UK sellers and buyers. They have much more power in the relationship

The Balance of Payments computation - no.... no trade would 'save' the UK $43 billion at the last count. Probably more given devaluation of the £

Negative balance of payments isn't necessarily a negative thing. For one rightly or wrongly we're a service economy and don't have the infrastructure to manufacture most things (and I'm a manufacturer). For 2, if we're buying goods for £1 and selling for £3, while we produce at £3, we're still making a profitable economy despite the negative balance of payments.

Agreed with you about the UK's historical trading. But can I add that at the time, the UK got raw materials for virtually nothing from its Empire, and had very little competition for its exports. The UK stopped being impoverished because almost free raw materials and little competition on World Markets gave the UK a massive Balance of Payments surplus. I know it's hard to believe, but the UK was once the richest country in the world on the back of Global Trade. It won't ever be again, but with new opportunities, new impetus and real need to think Globally in order to survive and thrive, it might get better than it is now.

Finally, all Big Businesses with clout are global. They're already present inside the EU so no change there. And it's certain that some will leave the UK for their EU businesses and some will come to the UK to continue their UK businesses.

I don't think it's accurate we 'got raw materials for virtually nothing'. In fact we would have had a negative balance of payments with all of our colonies. China we paid for tea, even started a war to open up their borders, India we paid for all kinds of commodities and West Africa we paid for slaves. We became rich of having a negative balance of payments.
 
I would like to ask all remainers that seem to want whats best for the uk, what parties they voted for that they thought would actually modernise the uk? Bring it into at least the 20th century if not the 21st?

Why are you not focusing your energy on uk infrastructure?

Where have you been all these years?

Britain is a shithole, has been and always will be service wise, being in or out of the eu wont change that.
 
But Japan's recent model has been QE on steroids.

I am not denigrating the German economy - they have an enviable industrial base and skilled workforce. But that just emphasises that they shouldn't be in a currency bloc with Club Med.

You could argue the same is true of London and the rest of the UK
 
You could argue the same is true of London and the rest of the UK

Success breeds success and there comes a point where the effect becomes unchangeable by anything the rest of the country or countries can do themselves.

That is the point England is at with regards to London and a few major cities. Is that what the EU is trying to achieve to centralise all economic power in Germany and a few Northern European countries and run everywhere else down to become like Stoke.
 
Success breeds success and there comes a point where the effect becomes unchangeable by anything the rest of the country or countries can do themselves.

That is the point England is at with regards to London and a few major cities. Is that what the EU is trying to achieve to centralise all economic power in Germany and a few Northern European countries and run everywhere else down to become like Stoke.

No, I don't reckon it's the plan, just the way it is at the moment
 
I'm saying the value of German production is underpriced because it is inside the Eurozone.
Yes, we hear that a lot, but how so? Say we traded in currency X, and that currency X was double as valuable as the current Euro, what would change? German companies would charge half as much of currency X for their products... and pay half as much of currency X for their imports. Germany has literally no noteworthy natural resources anymore (where an undervalued currency would help). It would damage Germany by not being in the same currency as it's neighbors anymore, and would cause the administrative headache of changing currency... but I still don't see how it would be an disadvantage compared to the US/UK.

Where would the DMark be against the pound and a German free Euro right now if Germany wasn't in the Euro do you think?
There is absolutely no way of knowing... What if the Germans voted in 'Die Linke' and they make one of theirs president of the Bundesbank? We might get inflation on steroids. Or we might vote in the AfD and they do whatever they tell themselves would be good for the D-Mark. After all the talk from the US and UK about us manipulating our currency we might just figure to do exactly that... once we do have our own back. A lot easier for Germany to manipulate a German DMark trading price then Europe's Euro, no?

Just because all the countries in the Euro agreed to join the Euro doesn't mean they were right to do so. I think the Greeks have shown that particular line of logic is deeply flawed.
True enough. But those countries who would have been better off not joining still get there say in today's Euro... Mario Draghi would hardly be ECB president if all the talk about Germany dictating Euro policy were true.

Also, I'm not saying that the entire economy of any country is helped by lower or higher exchange rates but it is the case that holding a lower exchange rate, than the value of your production would otherwise determine in a free market, is a huge advantage in trade while holding an exchange rate higher is detrimental.

That is what the Euro is, a fixed exchange rate which is the Germans biggest advantage in production and trade. No matter how well its economy does the natural balance of a rising currency is negated absolutely within the Eurozone and largely mitigated in trade outside of the Euro. Long term the other countries with weaker economies are screwed and I haven't heard of any mechanism being proposed which would offset this at all.
It can only be described as a fixed exchange rate within the Euro though, a fixed exchange rate within a common market largely governed by the same (and if not at least compatible) laws. There is no such thing as a 'natural balance of a rising currency' as the strength of an economy is only one factor in the value of that economy's currency... Many rising economies have and continue to inflate their own currencies... some are hit by inflation without wanting it. The weaker economies within the the eurozone benefit from a stable currency... It's far from perfect, and won't by itself bring anybody prosperity, but please inform me of the mechanisms being proposed to prop up Blackpool, Coventry, Detroit or Flint? Would they be better off just dropping out of the Pound and Dollar?

Finally, rules were put in place on trade surpluses which Germany is breaking and the result is that absolutely nothing will be done about it. Meanwhile, Germany runs a 15 to 18 billion Euro per month trade surplus and if anyone points this out its called propaganda.
To point out facts isn't. To claim that "Germany abuses the Euro to take advantage of everyone else", which is being done, is though. It's a blatant lie used for political reasons, what would you call it?

Edit: Sorry for taking this thread off topic, but living near the french/german border and visiting France almost weekly in the summertime is enough to make me touchy on the subject :D The Euro is of huge practical value to me, and hugely beneficial to this entire region on both sides of the border. Not to speak of the advantages my employer has by not having to deal with a separate currency for every country they do business in (It's not a huge business, and the deals themselves aren't huge, so any costs that come with having separate floating currencies might always potentially be a deal breaker...). But let me be clear on one thing: German goods aren't irreplaceable at all... from all the major economies they are probably the easiest to replace. Which is precisely why Germany needs stability nationally and internationally to continue to be prosperous... A stability we see as being under threat by those using the 'propaganda' I just described.
 
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Report about British expats (obviously not foreigners, Britons can only be expats) in Spain and Brexit:


Some of those mindsets are just hilarious:wenger:
 
Article 50 - Wednesday 29th of March it is.

On 30th March will wages soar, holidays be doubled, unemployment be at 0.1%, exports rise by 25% and so on ?
 
Number of applications from EU nurses to the NHS drops by 90% since Brexit and record numbers are quitting.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurses-quit-record-numbers

But it's ok, Hunt is going to deal with the nursing crisis by imposing new language tests on foreign NHS workers, yay!
he told a Commons committee that it would be a “natural priority” after Brexit to clamp down on inadequate language skills of doctors and nurses coming to Britain from abroad.
I genuinely don't understand the world anymore. How does anyone see this stuff and thing its logical or ok? I just had a scan of the comments section of the Express version of this article, and it was like a Viz parody.
 
Number of applications from EU nurses to the NHS drops by 90% since Brexit and record numbers are quitting.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/18/nhs-eu-nurses-quit-record-numbers

But it's ok, Hunt is going to deal with the nursing crisis by imposing new language tests on foreign NHS workers, yay!

I genuinely don't understand the world anymore. How does anyone see this stuff and thing its logical or ok? I just had a scan of the comments section of the Express version of this article, and it was like a Viz parody.

Aah, but if there are less nurses, the salary bill will be less.....are you following....saving money....