Does anybody else think Smalling & Jones get too much stick?

DizeeGorilla20

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As the thread title says, am I alone in thinking this?

The pair seem to be very unpopular at the moment but I think it's a bit too much for them to be getting as criticised as they are.

My reason for believing this is that, our defence as a whole is very much overworked in my opinion. I reckon that they are being put under massive pressure by our attackers and that Manchester United defenders should not be required to work as ours have over the last few years. I reckon defenders at sides like Bayern, Barca, Real, Juve and even the likes of (to a lesser extent of course) Spurs probably spend about 40% of their time over the course of a season coasting in 3rd or 4th gear. (THIS IS JUST A GUESSTIMATE)

The reason being that, for these sides it's not unusual to see them going into half time with a commanding 2 or 3 goal lead, meaning that in the 2nd half, more likely than not, the defenders are playing against demotivated opponents, more concerned with limiting the scoreline and hearing the refs final whistle than actually trying to get a goal. I think it's fair to say that anybody who has played football at any sort of level knows that it's much harder to run against defenders and create something when you're losing convincingly. On the other hand, playing against such opponents when on the winning side is an absolute dream. You don't need to be as focused and run as hard as you do when the game is in the balance.

Now we all know that killing off games early has been a serious problem for us ever since Fergie retired. It's not unusual to see us get to the 70th minute of a game against relegation candidates, having outplayed them but still only leading by a solitary goal. What this means for our defenders is that they're constantly having to play in 5th gear and having maximum focus as they know any mistake could cost us the result, regardless of how poor the opposition is and conversely, opposition attackers are still playing with hope of nicking a goal to get something from the game. I think that this is something that perhaps many of us don't consider when we see a few nervy clearances/passes/tackles from Jones and Smalling.

In my opinion, we have a brilliant defence, who despite this have only conceded 23 goals (only two more than Chelsea and Spurs in joint first, who seem to get massive praise for their defensive prowess). And unlike last season, I don't think that you could put that stat down to mostly just De Gea as we've been significantly less reliant on him as we have in the past. So basically, in my opinion, I think that these two are actually a bit underrated by our fans at the moment but would be keen to hear what others think?




TLDR: Our defense is overworked and put under more pressure than they should be by our attackers who can't seem to finish games. Jones and Smalling are kind of underrated (at the moment) in my opinion.


Edit: Some grammar, also let me just add that I am in no way saying that Jones and Smalling are perfect and that we should not be looking to get a new CB when the window opens, I'm just saying that they are doing a pretty good job this season, along with the rest of our defenders (bar Darmian and Shaw who have not really been involved)
 
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i think everyone gets too much stick these days, us fans are cnuts
 
They've been here for years and have been given plenty of chances to impress. But neither have improved and I have zero confidence in either of them. Basically my patience has run out. We're not a charity, we don't owe these players a living. If we want to reach the pinnacle of football again we need to be ruthless rather than sympathetic and/or sentimental.
 
I have been a big fan of Jones for a long time but now think he is most comfortable when the team is under the cosh and he is doing a lot of last ditch stuff. That kind of makes him unsuitable for us.

Smalling just isn't good enough on the ball for a top club.
 
No they're both not good enough. Jones plays like an idiot and Smalling isn't capable of building from the back and his defending isn't good enough to make up for it.
 
AndyJ1985 said:
They've been here for years and have been given plenty of chances to impress. But neither have improved and I have zero confidence in either of them. Basically my patience has run out. We're not a charity, we don't owe these players a living. If we want to reach the pinnacle of football again we need to be ruthless rather than sympathetic and/or sentimental.
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I have to disagree. Yes, they've been here a long time but both of them, along with Rojo have spent significant chunks of their Utd careers playing as fullbacks and they just simply aren't fullbacks. I think Smalling had his breakthrough year last season when played in his natural position although he had a horrible last few weeks, what with the own goal that cost DDG the golden glove then the red card in the FA Cup final. I do think he is up to the standard though.

Jones, I think is currently having his breakthrough, now being played mostly as a CB. His injury-prone nature is a reall annoyance though and he is still prone to the stray back-pass or two. Overall though, I think they deserve their places, certainly as squad players at least.

To say you have, zero confidence is harsh, I think. They haven't really messed up too many times this season as far as I can recall.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I have been a big fan of Jones for a long time but now think he is most comfortable when the team is under the cosh and he is doing a lot of last ditch stuff. That kind of makes him unsuitable for us.

Smalling just isn't good enough on the ball for a top club.
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Good point, he does tend to drop off too much and do something dumb when he doesn't have much to do.
 
Lay said:
No they're both not good enough. Jones plays like an idiot and Smalling isn't capable of building from the back and his defending isn't good enough to make up for it.
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Gotta disagree with the bold. I don't see many flaws, if any at all, in his defensive game. Maybe just the shirt-grabbing at times? But I tend to think he gets unfairly targeted for it at times. Buildup play is severely lacking though and heading from attacking corners is pretty poor too.
 
Agree they do. Some of our fans are just complete spoilt turds, who should keep their opinions to themselves.
 
I find it hilarious the amount of people who cite Smalling's ability on the ball or lack thereof as a main criticism of him. First of all he's been at the club for the best part of a decade he's never been great with the ball at his feet yet until recently it was never a big complaint towards him. Secondly you would swear we were Peps Barca side of 09-12 where ball playing centre backs are essential.
 
Yes they get far too much stick yet the tide turns quickly after a game where one or both has played well.

The problem is their fitness, not their ability.
 
I don't know how much stick either get.

Smallling has been pretty bad this season but by his standards. By the standards of a bad defender he would merely have been ok or even quite goood. In general I think he's a good defender but not really good enough with the ball (I say that as if every person on earth doesn't know it). He's jjust not been in form often enough.

Jones I don't really know. I'm mainly just pleased he's stayed fit for most of a season for once. He's still as clumsy as he is ugly and can't seem to do any defending that doesn't involve him ending up sitting on the floor, but I don't think he's beeen awful. He's had a few awful games but mostly I think I've been pleasantly surprised...although partly because he was injured for so long I kind of expected he'd forgotten how to play football altogether. The problem with Jones is it always kind of feels like putting a blind man in a tank turret and hoping he does more damage to the enemy than to you.

Rojo and Bailly have been our best two centrebacks, but as Pogue pointed out in some other thread, they seem to play best when partnered with one of the other two. I have no idea why that works other than maybe a communication thing. Smalling for example is definitely the best of the four at organising.

The biggest problem is still what's just been mentioned above. You look back to the last time either was injured, and too often (for example, now) you don't even have to look back, because they are currently injured.
 
I prefer Smalling to Jones but yes, both get undeserved criticism often.
 
Way too much stick. They are good defenders only for Jones keeps getting injured.
 
Smalling has cost us too many goals and dropped points. He was a duff signing from day 1.
 
How have everyone's wet dreams at spurs and Chelsea concede their 21 goals because I am led to believe they are the epitome of cb brilliance on this forum....the way people go on about Smalling and Jones you would think we lose 3-2 and have 2-2 draws and 3-3 draws. Our defenders have been the least of our problems this season. We may need to buy one cb because of ucl and injuries.
 
I think that they are overrated TBH. Jones is injury prone and can barely string 7 good games in a row without breaking into pieces. Smalling still plays like a very promising 17 year old which is kind of weird considering that he's a decade older.
 
Yes, far too much. Same with a lot of our team right now though, is there any player that hasnt been called out on these forums? De Gea maybe
 
The OP has a point, they seem to be under constant pressure, though it may be due to their lack of composure that makes it appear that way.

Then again that pair aren't exactly the brain-trust are they?
 
I think every player gets criticised too much by certain segments of our support to be honest. Jones and Smalling seem to attract a great amount of ire for the fact they pick up a large amount of injuries but I think they're both good players to have around when fit
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
As the thread title says, am I alone in thinking this?

The pair seem to be very unpopular at the moment but I think it's a bit too much for them to be getting as criticised as they are.

My reason for believing this is that, our defence as a whole is very much overworked in my opinion. I reckon that they are being put under massive pressure by our attackers and that Manchester United defenders should not be required to work as ours have over the last few years. I reckon defenders at sides like Bayern, Barca, Real, Juve and even the likes of (to a lesser extent of course) Spurs probably spend about 40% of their time over the course of a season coasting in 3rd or 4th gear. (THIS IS JUST A GUESSTIMATE)

The reason being that, for these sides it's not unusual to see them going into half time with a commanding 2 or 3 goal lead, meaning that in the 2nd half, more likely than not, the defenders are playing against demotivated opponents, more concerned with limiting the scoreline and hearing the refs final whistle than actually trying to get a goal. I think it's fair to say that anybody who has played football at any sort of level knows that it's much harder to run against defenders and create something when you're losing convincingly. On the other hand, playing against such opponents when on the winning side is an absolute dream. You don't need to be as focused and run as hard as you do when the game is in the balance.

Now we all know that killing off games early has been a serious problem for us ever since Fergie retired. It's not unusual to see us get to the 70th minute of a game against relegation candidates, having outplayed them but still only leading by a solitary goal. What this means for our defenders is that they're constantly having to play in 5th gear and having maximum focus as they know any mistake could cost us the result, regardless of how poor the opposition is and conversely, opposition attackers are still playing with hope of nicking a goal to get something from the game. I think that this is something that perhaps many of us don't consider when we see a few nervy clearances/passes/tackles from Jones and Smalling.

In my opinion, we have a brilliant defence, who despite this have only conceded 23 goals (only two more than Chelsea and Spurs in joint first, who seem to get massive praise for their defensive prowess). And unlike last season, I don't think that you could put that stat down to mostly just De Gea as we've been significantly less reliant on him as we have in the past. So basically, in my opinion, I think that these two are actually a bit underrated by our fans at the moment but would be keen to hear what others think?




TLDR: Our defense is overworked and put under more pressure than they should be by our attackers who can't seem to finish games. Jones and Smalling are kind of underrated (at the moment) in my opinion.


Edit: Some grammar, also let me just add that I am in no way saying that Jones and Smalling are perfect and that we should not be looking to get a new CB when the window opens, I'm just saying that they are doing a pretty good job this season, along with the rest of our defenders (bar Darmian and Shaw who have not really been involved)
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Tried saying this is other forums and I was kicked out !!! . People who saying we need defenders of rio and vidic status need to look to the Defenders across the whole Europe . Quite frankly I cannot find anyone that can realistically improve our defense unless we get Bonucci/Chiellini or Godin . Chelsea , Spurs etc protect their defence very well using players and frankly whenever I watched I barely see any protection to our defense .
 
The_Order said:
The OP has a point, they seem to be under constant pressure, though it may be due to their lack of composure that makes it appear that way.

Then again that pair aren't exactly the brain-trust are they?
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Or could it due to lack of a proper CDM . There is a reason why whenever Carrick plays we look better defensively
 
Most players get blamed too much. Every post-match discussion, even after we win, is just a constant blame-game, and often descends into arguments as to who exactly is to blame for particular happenings, and why. It's pretty tiresome and boring.
 
I think they get a lot of stick because they are quite clumsy footballers. Whilst they definitely have great games and qualities, there is always the lingering thought that he will feck up a back pass...like Smalling trying to diving head it back to the keeper and it coming off his chest?

When you compare them to defenders we have had in the past - Ferdinand, Vidic, Stam, Pallister, Bruce. Unfortunately they just don't fit right now so get crucified
 
Agree completely.

We've got one of the best defences in the league, unbeaten since November, and have only conceded 2 or more goals in 5 games out of the ~50 we've played in all competitions - that's a fantastic return. If we had our striking boots on and actually scored goals we'd be right at the top of the table.

Fans seem to change their preference for defenders week in week out, and any time we concede a goal it's because our defence isn't good enough.

It seems as though it's far easier to remember a defensive mistake than an offensive one.
How many games in the season have we rued an easy miss?
Someone hitting the post, an opposition keeper pulling off a string of mistakes because of our poor finishing, lack of chances created etc?
All of this is a far more pressing concern than our defence currently.

From my perspective most of our dropped points have come as a result of missed chances and poor finishes than poor defensive displays.
 
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Until they've been beaten by a stick, no.

Smalling could be a useful squad player, while Jones simply can't stay fit for long enough.
 
Not really. Thinking of the criticism objectively (by player):

1. Smalling: Major gripe I have is his propensity for brainfades. This has been a consistent issue for close on a decade now. Even under LvG in his stellar season last year, he had these moments (City game, Palace in the FAC). Also, while some point to his form last season, remember that this was the most sterile United team in recent memory playing with 2 DMs and constantly shielding the defence (and with DdG behind to bail them out too). It can't be representative of Smalling. As recently as the last game, he gifted the opposition (boro for feck's sake) a goal... He's a decent defender and could play for mid / upper-mid table clubs competently enough, but has no place in a side that hopes to chase the PL title or the CL.

2. Jones: I don't think anyone really criticizes his skill or effort. It's more his complete inability to stay fit for any length of time. It's annoying and frankly great squads should not be pandering to players who're great when they play (and Jones doesn't qualify as great), but are unfit more often than not. Remember King at Spurs? Well, Jones seems to miss even more games than peak King. Now, I'm not saying his ability is the problem (though you could question whether his style gets him injured so much) but again, a great team needs to have players it can call upon regularly. Sure, injuries will happen, but Jones is like a walking sick-note. We constantly laugh at Arsenal for mollycoddling consistently injured players. Jones is our own version of such a player.

So, in summary, no, I don't think we're over-critical. Are some messages overboard? Of course. But you'll see such messages even on genuine greats. These two are competent and could do a job, but if we're to regain our place among the European elite, I think we must sadly accept that these two will have to be jettisoned or at least moved to the back of the queue. A lot hold hope for Jones - and till fairly recently, I did too - but sadly, I think the injury history and record are now too overwhelming to ignore in the wish that he will suddenly become a regularly fit player.
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
As the thread title says, am I alone in thinking this?

The pair seem to be very unpopular at the moment but I think it's a bit too much for them to be getting as criticised as they are.

My reason for believing this is that, our defence as a whole is very much overworked in my opinion. I reckon that they are being put under massive pressure by our attackers and that Manchester United defenders should not be required to work as ours have over the last few years. I reckon defenders at sides like Bayern, Barca, Real, Juve and even the likes of (to a lesser extent of course) Spurs probably spend about 40% of their time over the course of a season coasting in 3rd or 4th gear. (THIS IS JUST A GUESSTIMATE)

The reason being that, for these sides it's not unusual to see them going into half time with a commanding 2 or 3 goal lead, meaning that in the 2nd half, more likely than not, the defenders are playing against demotivated opponents, more concerned with limiting the scoreline and hearing the refs final whistle than actually trying to get a goal. I think it's fair to say that anybody who has played football at any sort of level knows that it's much harder to run against defenders and create something when you're losing convincingly. On the other hand, playing against such opponents when on the winning side is an absolute dream. You don't need to be as focused and run as hard as you do when the game is in the balance.

Now we all know that killing off games early has been a serious problem for us ever since Fergie retired. It's not unusual to see us get to the 70th minute of a game against relegation candidates, having outplayed them but still only leading by a solitary goal. What this means for our defenders is that they're constantly having to play in 5th gear and having maximum focus as they know any mistake could cost us the result, regardless of how poor the opposition is and conversely, opposition attackers are still playing with hope of nicking a goal to get something from the game. I think that this is something that perhaps many of us don't consider when we see a few nervy clearances/passes/tackles from Jones and Smalling.

In my opinion, we have a brilliant defence, who despite this have only conceded 23 goals (only two more than Chelsea and Spurs in joint first, who seem to get massive praise for their defensive prowess). And unlike last season, I don't think that you could put that stat down to mostly just De Gea as we've been significantly less reliant on him as we have in the past. So basically, in my opinion, I think that these two are actually a bit underrated by our fans at the moment but would be keen to hear what others think?




TLDR: Our defense is overworked and put under more pressure than they should be by our attackers who can't seem to finish games. Jones and Smalling are kind of underrated (at the moment) in my opinion.


Edit: Some grammar, also let me just add that I am in no way saying that Jones and Smalling are perfect and that we should not be looking to get a new CB when the window opens, I'm just saying that they are doing a pretty good job this season, along with the rest of our defenders (bar Darmian and Shaw who have not really been involved)
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Oh dear, they have to ACTUALLY work hard?

Remind me again how much they're getting paid on a weekly basis?
 
They're both good players - but very injury prone. I would have kept Keane and Evans as well. Do I think Bailly and Rojo are of the requisite standard for United? No.
 
midnightmare said:
Not really. Thinking of the criticism objectively (by player):

1. Smalling: Major gripe I have is his propensity for brainfades. This has been a consistent issue for close on a decade now. Even under LvG in his stellar season last year, he had these moments (City game, Palace in the FAC). Also, while some point to his form last season, remember that this was the most sterile United team in recent memory playing with 2 DMs and constantly shielding the defence (and with DdG behind to bail them out too). It can't be representative of Smalling. As recently as the last game, he gifted the opposition (boro for feck's sake) a goal... He's a decent defender and could play for mid / upper-mid table clubs competently enough, but has no place in a side that hopes to chase the PL title or the CL.
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This is an aspect of his game that gets overly played up, in my opinion. Rio and Vidic made plenty of mistakes too.

Before the Boro game, can you honestly, off the top of your head recall when an error of his directly caused a goal?

I've had a look at the Official PL site and currently, the 'Errors leading to a goal' stat currently reads like this:

United: 3 ( 3 Errors leading to goals)
Chelsea: 3
City: 4
Spurs: 6

Last season (2015/2016), it read:

Leicester: 1
United: 2
City: 5
Spurs: 6


2014/2015:
United: 3

2013/2014 (The Moyes season, when Rio and Vidic were our main CB pairing)
United: 7


Fair enough, you may argue that De Gea did a lot to keep those stats down, particularly between 2014-2016 (Unfortunately, I can't find an 'Error leading to shots' stats) but the fact is our defense is among the tightest in the league and Smalling is no more costly, in terms of errors, than some of the top defenders in the league.

In fact, Smalling himself has only had 1 red card, and caused 3 goals due to errors in his entire PL career.

I think it's pretty fair to say that this so called, negative aspect of his game is a bit of a myth.


midnightmare said:
Not really. Thinking of the criticism objectively (by player):

2. Jones: I don't think anyone really criticizes his skill or effort. It's more his complete inability to stay fit for any length of time. It's annoying and frankly great squads should not be pandering to players who're great when they play (and Jones doesn't qualify as great), but are unfit more often than not. Remember King at Spurs? Well, Jones seems to miss even more games than peak King. Now, I'm not saying his ability is the problem (though you could question whether his style gets him injured so much) but again, a great team needs to have players it can call upon regularly. Sure, injuries will happen, but Jones is like a walking sick-note. We constantly laugh at Arsenal for mollycoddling consistently injured players. Jones is our own version of such a player.
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I can't disagree with his woeful injury record, I do think he is good enough to be a squad player though.
 
Yes. If we had 15 more goals this season and were on the same level of points then I'd understand the focus on our defenders, but that hasn't been the case. Our attack is letting us down while our defense has been title caliber.

We could stand to improve on Smalling and Jones, but people act as if it's an insult to the club that they're included in the squad and frequently start.
 
ClosetDevil said:
Oh dear, they have to ACTUALLY work hard?

Remind me again how much they're getting paid on a weekly basis?
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Bit of a counter-productive point/question I think.

Yes, our players earn relatively absurd amounts of money and a lot you could argue are being overpaid when you look at just ability, however, the fact is wages are not solely based on ability and what happens on the pitch. There are a lot more inputs that go into it but that discussion is not really relevant to this thread, I think.
 
AR87 said:
Yes. If we had 15 more goals this season and were on the same level of points then I'd understand the focus on our defenders, but that hasn't been the case. Our attack is letting us down while our defense has been title caliber.

We could stand to improve on Smalling and Jones, but people act as if it's an insult to the club that they're included in the squad and frequently start.
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Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
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