Does anybody else think Smalling & Jones get too much stick?

There's a very good player somewhere within Chris Smalling, he's just struggled along the way with injuries and errors. He seems to have overcome the bulk of his fitness issues, now he just needs to cut out the mistakes. It would be so much more satisfying to see him do so and develop into the centre back he's promised than to go out and sign one for huge money.

Jones has been here for five and a half seasons and I'm still not sure about him.
 
There's the unfotunate yet understandable tendency to overrate other defenders and compare them favourably to these guys because people dont watch 90mins every week of those players and thus dont see the small mistakes they make while our own players are ripped to shreds for the same. You'd think the Laportes and the Gimenezes of this world are like Nesta on steriods if you went by what's written here.
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
This is an aspect of his game that gets overly played up, in my opinion. Rio and Vidic made plenty of mistakes too.

Before the Boro game, can you honestly, off the top of your head recall when an error of his directly caused a goal?

<Stats>

I think it's pretty fair to say that this so called, negative aspect of his game is a bit of a myth.
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That's the brilliance of statistics - they can prove whatever you like, based on what you choose, specially in a sport like football.

Off the top of my head, I'd cite the first two goals we conceded at the Bridge earlier this season. He completely switched off both times and we conceded. Now, these won't show up as "errors", since those are measured based on misplaced passes etc. (hence such low numbers despite so many goofy goals every season - and no Arsenal on that list). It's also notable that the last few years, regardless of concession, we've just looked very vulnerable whenever the opposition has attacked. I can't remember where, but I think there's a thread on this - remarking about how we don't seem to be conceding that many, but we just look so vulnerable. This is in no small measure, down to how indecisive Smalling can be at times.

Note - I'm not saying he's a poor defender. Just saying that he's not good enough for a club that wants to be at the very top of the European game. May be a decent squad option, but absolutely nothing more.
 
The standard of playing for Manchester United is that high, and the pressure to perform is real.

I think that too much sticks given to Jones & Smalling are deserving.

There's definitely high expectation here of our defenders, and the likes of Rojo and Valencia have fulfilled it. They don't.

For me, both of them are good squad players, and they have perform good enough, up to their limited capabilities.

I like them, and don't mind one of them staying as back-up CBs, preferably Smalling as he could offers better defensive protection and attacking with his height and strength in crosses and set-piece, plus as he've proven last season, he can dominate opponents.
 
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They get a bit too much stick for the injuries as they don't get injured on purpose, they are both just not built to last a season. However neither are good enough to be mainstays in a title winning defense and we rightly should expect better.
 
Yes. I don't really get the Smalling stick. He's not good on the ball but at actual defending he's very good. And the ball playing CB is just a fad. You don't need one to be successful

The Jones stick is absolutely ridiculous. There's a very good reason that under 4 different managers he's been first choice whenever he's been fit give or take. He's very good when he's fit and easily our most talented CB. His biggest problems are his injuries and I understand the annoyance but that's not his fault. Worse, somehow this myth that he only got injured because he was reckless had plenty of believers.
 
I don't think that they're getting the stick for lost/drawn games, it's mostly our attack who gets plenty of shit for it, but they're getting plenty of stick for their mistakes. Whereas I don't rate Jones at all, at least Smalling has shown last season that he's got something in him.

Having to take over from Rio and Vidic doesn't help them either, there's a ridiculous gap, a gulf in quality between those two partnerships.
 
Some people think that Jones only gets grief because he is always injured, but theres more to it than that. The injuries dont really contribute to why I personally get on his case, its more so that he seems to be absolutely brainless. The Bournmouth game and the penalty he gave away sums him up. He is a walking disaster. He is also not good enough on the ball, his first touch constantly puts him in trouble.

Smalling is the better of the two and perhaps his grief is a little more undeserved considering that he has been largely decent for us for a few years now, but i see the same problems in him as with Jones in terms of him appearing to play without a brain! He seems to always have a mistake in him, see The Boro game last week.

Fact is, neither should be first choice if we want to get back to the top.
 
nope, and it's very normal for players in a club as bis as Man United that have a lot of fans around the world to get too much stick because there is always high expectation. They have to be ready to face great pressure in elite team like Man United.
for me, I always think reasonably about our players, if they play well, I give them praise, they make mistake and cause our team lose the match, I criticize them. Speaking about Smalling and Jones, for me, they have done quite well. However, I still want Jose to bring 1 reliable and great CB next season because a player like Jones is very risky and not reliable with his injury records, and Smalling sometimes makes stupid mistakes. Even, I dont mind if we decide to sell Jones next season so we can buy new CB. I trust Jose about the decision.
 
Spot on, this. Generally, our attackers are dogshit and have been - both on paper and in reality - for a long time now. We create little (still do) and score nowhere near enough goals (which doesn't look like changing irrespective of Mourinho's fan club).

Our defence has been very good, very solid and very structured for two whole seasons now, and most (if not all) of our defenders could play elsewhere in the league and shine.

If you look at our goals conceded and goals scored over the best part of a decade, only one column has changed significantly as a result of our struggles, and it isn't the defensive one.
 
Varun said:
There's the unfotunate yet understandable tendency to overrate other defenders and compare them favourably to these guys because people dont watch 90mins every week of those players and thus dont see the small mistakes they make while our own players are ripped to shreds for the same. You'd think the Laportes and the Gimenezes of this world are like Nesta on steriods if you went by what's written here.
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Van Dijk is regularly responsibility for the feckload of goals Southampton concede and you'd think he's the second coming on here.
 
midnightmare said:
That's the brilliance of statistics - they can prove whatever you like, based on what you choose, specially in a sport like football.

Off the top of my head, I'd cite the first two goals we conceded at the Bridge earlier this season. He completely switched off both times and we conceded. Now, these won't show up as "errors", since those are measured based on misplaced passes etc. (hence such low numbers despite so many goofy goals every season - and no Arsenal on that list). It's also notable that the last few years, regardless of concession, we've just looked very vulnerable whenever the opposition has attacked. I can't remember where, but I think there's a thread on this - remarking about how we don't seem to be conceding that many, but we just look so vulnerable. This is in no small measure, down to how indecisive Smalling can be at times.

Note - I'm not saying he's a poor defender. Just saying that he's not good enough for a club that wants to be at the very top of the European game. May be a decent squad option, but absolutely nothing more.
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So do you reckon top defenders like Godin, Chielini, Ramos et al. are never at fault for such goals? The fact is that whenever you concede a goal, somebody is always to blame in some way.

There is no defender that goes through a season without, in some way being liable for a goal the team conceded. It seems like reds are demanding absolute perfection from Smalling at this point which is just unfair.



Varun said:
There's the unfotunate yet understandable tendency to overrate other defenders and compare them favourably to these guys because people dont watch 90mins every week of those players and thus dont see the small mistakes they make while our own players are ripped to shreds for the same. You'd think the Laportes and the Gimenezes of this world are like Nesta on steriods if you went by what's written here.
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Brilliantly put.
 
So apparently we have the third best defensive record in all of Europe in 2017 behind Bayern and Juventus.
 
flappyjay said:
So apparently we have the third best defensive record in all of Europe in 2017 behind Bayern and Juventus.
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Weird considering our centre halves are really average mid-table players that must be improved upon. It must be because Van Gaal plays really deep with two central defensive midfiel... oh, ay, that's bollocks too.

The only reason we don't win games is because we often fail to score more than one goal. See Hull, see Bournemouth, see Stoke. Our defenders are a credit to us, really.
 
I find it a bit strange that in a season where the majority of our strikers / attacking midfielders have failed miserably, and are the one and only reason why we aren't fighting for the title rather than top-4 position, the majority of the fans have a go at our defenders.

We are defensively one of the best teams in the league despite:
a) We don't have a decent left back
b) We have struggled with injuries and breaking in Bailly who is new
c) We at times have had a central midfield partnership where at least one of the players don't understand the concept of defending
 
Kag said:
Spot on, this. Generally, our attackers are dogshit and have been - both on paper and in reality - for a long time now. We create little (still do) and score nowhere near enough goals (which doesn't look like changing irrespective of Mourinho's fan club).

Our defence has been very good, very solid and very structured for two whole seasons now, and most (if not all) of our defenders could play elsewhere in the league and shine.

If you look at our goals conceded and goals scored over the best part of a decade, only one column has changed significantly as a result of our struggles, and it isn't the defensive one.
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Brilliant point. As somebody else put it, over the last two seasons, we've had a defence capable of winning the league the problem is, we have an attack that has the output of a mid-table side.

Heck, Everton have scored more goals than us this season (albeit with 2 games in hand yet somehow I don't see us getting the 10 goals we would need to surpass them in this regard in our 2 catch-up games). We are currently 7th on goals scored which is pretty damning. Our defence is literally what is keeping us in the race for top 4 right now.
 
MILLHILLMANC said:
They're both good players - but very injury prone. I would have kept Keane and Evans as well. Do I think Bailly and Rojo are of the requisite standard for United? No.
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Bailly who is built like a rock, technically very solid and lightning quick....is not good enough ? Granted he has made mistakes but he is a young player, in terms of potential I would say he is the best in the league. If he will ever be that good we will see in a season or 2, but how you can discard him after 2/3 of his first season where he also was gone for 1 month in january.....insane!
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
Brilliant point. As somebody else put it, over the last two seasons, we've had a defence capable of winning the league the problem is, we have an attack that has the output of a mid-table side.

Heck, Everton have scored more goals than us this season (albeit with 2 games in hand yet somehow I don't see us getting the 10 goals we would need to surpass them in this regard in our 2 catch-up games). We are currently 7th on goals scored which is pretty damning. Our defence is literally what is keeping us in the race for top 4 right now.
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Indeed. We've actually scored the same numbers of goals as Bournemouth. They play with some bloke called Marc Pugh on the wing and a pair of United and Arsenal rejects up top.

We've conceded two less than both Chelsea and Spurs, both of which play with three man back lines and have had to shuffle their defenders around very little.
 
Tarrou said:
i think everyone gets too much stick these days, us fans are cnuts
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This unfortunately. Times have changed. They may not be at the pinnacle of the game, but most good players aren't. Carrick for example, for all his qualities, has gotten a lot of stick, dropped from the team for long stretches, and considered behind such players as Barry & Parker for England. I just don't remember people taking potshots at Ince, Parker, Bruce, or Sharpe for example... they were decent players, but not likely to set the world on fire. These two English defenders (thus not the best players in the team on the ball), yet to reach their peak, are pretty good at defending, but aren't necessarily even first choice. Then again, we live in an era where Louis Van Gaal knows nothing about football, Giggs apparently did his best to ruin our club (advising Moyes against signing Thiago and wanting to become the manager someday), and Ronaldo doesn't want Real Madrid to sign good forwards... the world's falling apart, it's all gone bloody mental. I mean, Donald F. Trump. Smalling & Jones are the least of our worries.
 
midnightmare said:
Not really. Thinking of the criticism objectively (by player):

1. Smalling: Major gripe I have is his propensity for brainfades. This has been a consistent issue for close on a decade now. Even under LvG in his stellar season last year, he had these moments (City game, Palace in the FAC). Also, while some point to his form last season, remember that this was the most sterile United team in recent memory playing with 2 DMs and constantly shielding the defence (and with DdG behind to bail them out too). It can't be representative of Smalling. As recently as the last game, he gifted the opposition (boro for feck's sake) a goal... He's a decent defender and could play for mid / upper-mid table clubs competently enough, but has no place in a side that hopes to chase the PL title or the CL.
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Both he and Jones have league winners medals, this is just nonsense.
 
I don't know about too much stick, but certainly opinion swings like a pendulum based on performances and injuries. It's even more interesting if Rojo was included. I'm not afraid to say that I still have no clue how good Jones, Smalling and Rojo are. Sometimes they look great, sometimes poor, sometimes absolutely clueless, and sometimes world class. I have no idea what to do with them, just hope Jose does!
 
Oldyella said:
Both he and Jones have league winners medals, this is just nonsense.
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So do Anderson (4), van der Gouw (2), Farren Ferguson, Jordi Cruyff, Luke Chadwick, Ronnie Wallwork, Cleverley & Büttner, I still wouldn't call them good enough (in their prime) for a team aspiring to win PL & CL titles.
 
lysglimt said:
Bailly who is built like a rock, technically very solid and lightning quick....is not good enough ? Granted he has made mistakes but he is a young player, in terms of potential I would say he is the best in the league. If he will ever be that good we will see in a season or 2, but how you can discard him after 2/3 of his first season where he also was gone for 1 month in january.....insane!
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He'll make a decent right back....compete with fosu-mensah. He ain't no Pallister, Bruce, Rio or Vidic. Jones and Smalling have potential if they ever stayed fit.
 
top1whoisman said:
So do Anderson (4), van der Gouw (2), Farren Ferguson, Jordi Cruyff, Luke Chadwick, Ronnie Wallwork, Cleverley & Büttner, I still wouldn't call them good enough (in their prime) for a team aspiring to win PL & CL titles.
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Never watched United during the 90's unfortunately (was too young) but I assume you're trying to compare Smalling and Jones to fringe players who won titles here? If that's the case I have no clue why you would do that. Jones and Smalling played big roles and were trusted by Fergie in those last two championship winning sides.

I don't know what it is, maybe if they had sexier and less work-man sounding names than Smalling/Jones you would rate them higher?


On a bit of a side note, I find it dissapointing how much Anderson is disrespected by United fans and how much his contributions were forgetten. This was a man that was trusted to play in two champions league finals by our greatest ever manager and made the match day squad for a third.

Yeah, he never quite stole the headlines or drove the team on to any famous victories but he was a meaningful part of the teams he played in under Fergie.
 
DizeeGorilla20 said:
Never watched United during the 90's unfortunately but I assume you're trying to compare Smalling and Jones to fringe players who won titles here? If that's the case I have no clue why you would do that. Jones and Smalling played big roles and were trusted by Fergie in those last two championship winning sides.

On a bit of a side note, I find it dissapointing how much Anderson is disrespected by United fans and how much his contributions were forgetten. This was a man that was trusted to play in two champions league finals by our greatest ever manager and made the match day squad for a third.

Yeah, he never quite stole the headlines or drove the team on to any famous victories but he was a meaningful part of the teams he played in under Fergie.
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Absolutely not. I replied to a post that used Jones and Smalling winning titles as a proof they are good enough. I think that’s a flawed logic as the names mentioned suggest. Didn’t say Jones or Smalling wouldn’t be good enough. I’m on the fence with both. Smalling’s form in the first half of last season gave me hope, and while he hasn’t been that bad this season, there are moments that make me think we should be better off getting rid. I admire Jones’ attitude and I know there’s a solid CB there somewhere, but his injury record and the occasional brain farts and the need for last ditch tackles. He’s younger though, but I’m losing patience…

For the record, I liked Anderson, but more because of his funny and happy nature. He was good when he came + he had that good season start with Cleverley. For the penalty in Moscow alone, I’m thankful. He definitely wasn’t as poor as most on that list, but I still don’t think 4 PL titles tells his level. He wasn’t a success on any indicator.
 
MILLHILLMANC said:
He'll make a decent right back....compete with fosu-mensah. He ain't no Pallister, Bruce, Rio or Vidic. Jones and Smalling have potential if they ever stayed fit.
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Bailly, a decent right back? Based on what exactly? Did he play there for Villareal?

We've only seen him play there for United 2 or 3 times and he looks nowhere near as good as he does at CB. I think you need to expand on your opinions regarding Bailly a bit more as they seem to be way against grain as far as most fans are concerned. He's been excellent so far in his first season.
 
top1whoisman said:
Absolutely not. I replied to a post that used Jones and Smalling winning titles as a proof they are good enough. I think that’s a flawed logic as the names mentioned suggest. Didn’t say Jones or Smalling wouldn’t be good enough. I’m on the fence with both. Smalling’s form in the first half of last season gave me hope, and while he hasn’t been that bad this season, there are moments that make me think we should be better off getting rid. I admire Jones’ attitude and I know there’s a solid CB there somewhere, but his injury record and the occasional brain farts and the need for last ditch tackles. He’s younger though, but I’m losing patience…

For the record, I liked Anderson, but more because of his funny and happy nature. He was good when he came + he had that good season start with Cleverley. For the penalty in Moscow alone, I’m thankful. He definitely wasn’t as poor as most on that list, but I still don’t think 4 PL titles tells his level. He wasn’t a success on any indicator.
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So what's your opinion on players like O'Shea, Wes Brown, Park Ji Sung, Fletcher?

I just find it hard to reconcile what you're saying. Anderson made nearly 200 appearances for a title winning side that did very well in Europe too. Surely if he wasn't up to the standard, he would have been weeded out very soon by Fergie.

It seems to me like you're of the opinion that a title winning side needs to packed with world class players from positions 1 to 11 and supplemented by a bench of another 5 world class players when that's not the case. You only really need 4 or 5 world class players in the squad and the rest to be competent with a winners mentality to do really well.
 
Akash said:
Yes. I don't really get the Smalling stick. He's not good on the ball but at actual defending he's very good. And the ball playing CB is just a fad. You don't need one to be successful.

The Jones stick is absolutely ridiculous. There's a very good reason that under 4 different managers he's been first choice whenever he's been fit give or take. He's very good when he's fit and easily our most talented CB. His biggest problems are his injuries and I understand the annoyance but that's not his fault. Worse, somehow this myth that he only got injured because he was reckless had plenty of believers.
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That is not true, To perfect your Philosophy and play style in a Posession based game a ball playing defender is needed. Ferdinand was a Ball playing defender himself.
 
Akash said:
Kill me now.
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Well We have all sung Praises of Pep's Barcelona and Bayern Munich about how good they were Havent We ?. Every top Posession based manager with that philosophy gets a Ball Playing Defender At Cb from Cyruff's to Lvg to bryan Robson to Pep Guardiola. A Ball Playing defender is essential in that play style to beat the opponents attackers High Press and find Crucial Defense Splitting Passes.
 
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DizeeGorilla20 said:
So what's your opinion on players like O'Shea, Wes Brown, Park Ji Sung, Fletcher?

I just find it hard to reconcile what you're saying. Anderson made nearly 200 appearances for a title winning side that did very well in Europe too. Surely if he wasn't up to the standard, he would have been weeded out very soon by Fergie.

It seems to me like you're of the opinion that a title winning side needs to packed with world class players from positions 1 to 11 and supplemented by a bench of another 5 world class players when that's not the case. You only really need 4 or 5 world class players in the squad and the rest to be competent with a winners mentality to do really well.
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Loved Brown, Park & Fletch, always gave their all and were crucial in us winning several titles. Sheasy pretty much as well, although don’t find his quality as good as the other three. Guess it comes down to expectations. Ando was supposed be this crazy good talented attacking midfielder with flair, something we were crying out for. To me, he never showed that. He was inconsistent, bad decision making, terrible at shooting and finishing… To me he never fulfilled that role whereas the other 4 (or at least 3) did.

I am definitely not one of those who thinks that, far from it. I’ve defended Lingard to the hill this season, am happy to have him, Blind, Herrera, Rojo, TFM, Romero etc. in the team. I do think that we need a leader in the defence (Bailly still being young and not that vocal etc.), and I just personally might not rate Smalling high enough. Again, might. Not sure. And Jones, it’s more about his injury record. If me not rating (maybe) Smalling and Ando as good enough makes me seem like a person who wants 16 world class players in the squad, well...
 
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prtk0811 said:
Well We have all sung Praises of Pep's Barcelona and Bayern Munich about how good they were Havent We ?. Every top Posession based manager with that philosophy gets a Ball Playing Defender At Cb from Cyruff's to Lvg to bryan Robson to Pep Guardiola. A Ball Playing defender is essential in that play style to beat the opponents attackers High Press and find Crucial Defense breaking Passes.
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We're not playing possession football (thank feck). Also Ferdinand spent half his career hoofing the ball up aimlessly. We dont need ball playing defenders. We need defenders who can defend.
 
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