The sample size is quite a bit smaller.
In Defence of Jesse Lingard
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) is joined by CEO Duncan Drasdo and Financial Director Andy Green from the Manchester United Supporters Trust for a special episode on all things behind the scenes at Old Trafford including a brief history of MUST and their aims today, views on INEOS and Sir Jim Ratcliffe so far, and the Old Trafford regeneration.
The sample size is quite a bit smaller.
But why do you think there are so many posters in the performance thread that don't rate him - because he's not very good and people are frustrated that he's getting so many games. All we want is United to do better, there's nothing personal about it.
It was more of a reply to a claim that his "defenders" spend as much time in Lingard threads as you do. He's played way less than any other player in wing positions, so he's a squad player. Exactly what most of those who support him rate him as. And no, nothing wrong with disagreeing with that.
Many of his critics here claim that he's in the way of Martial's/Rashford's development. His role and played minutes, to me, don't support that. And we need English players, squad players, can't see why one couldn't be our own full international academy product who scores and assists as regularly as more or less everyone of his competitors.
Once again - I wasn't talking about your opinion, you're entitled to it, don't know how much more clearly I have to state that.
You don't rate him, your post said as much, nobody argued with you about it - but you still felt compelled to come back in the thread and tell other people how wrong they are for having a favourable opinion on a player you don't rate.
And from my perspective (I don't care to look through your posts in his performance thread or any other thread mentioning Lingard to back this up) this is something you do quite regularly.
And considering how unnecessary it is, I'd definitely class that as a hater.
I presume you do the same for every player you don't rate? Or is this special treatment only reserved for Lingard?
Everyone keeps quoting me
. And I keep explaining why people come in here , strange squad player who has played 61 times in less than 2 seasons. I have to put up with people saying how wonderful he is when he manages to do something as if it is something wonderful that no other player is capable of.Lingard does get criticised more because we have 5 or 6 players who are better than him - if Darmian was playing ahead of much better full backs then it would be the same. Unless Shaw returns to his pre-injury form we don't have a vast array of talent ahead of him.
Everyone keeps quoting me
Lingard does get criticised more because we have 5 or 6 players who are better than him - if Darmian was playing ahead of much better full backs then it would be the same. Unless Shaw returns to his pre-injury form we don't have a vast array of talent ahead of him.
I gave you an example where nobody quoted you but you still came back, that's precisely why I chose that example.
You gave your opinion, you still didn't rate him, nobody argued with you.
But something pulled you back in, it's like you are drawn to telling other people their opinions on him are wrong, or you read his thread and get frustrated that people say good things about him. He had a good game, of course people will compliment him.
Lingard has played less minutes than Mata, Martial, Rashford & Mhiki - nobody else plays in those positions except those 5 players, so if we have other players who are better than him, they are getting played more than he is, that's what you want isn't it? So what's the problem?
Our other squad players in the past averaged between 30-40 appearances also, including substitute appearances and the fact that in the last 2 seasons we've had long European campaigns and domestic campaigns that average an additional 30-40 games per season. If we only played 38 PL games and he played in 30 of them I could see your point, but that's not the case.
Darmian gets played more than Shaw does, and comparatively as much as Blind & Young - why don't you do the same for him?
Last season and the first half of this season Lingard was playing as much as the others who would or should be classed as first team players, since Xmas he has played less and hopefully less as time goes on.
Re Darmian, no-one has impressed as I said in the left-back position this season so Darmian is not keeping players out of the side and even then he has played less than Lingard
Lingard played considerably less than Martial, Rooney and Mata in his position. A bit more than Memphis who he proved to be better than. He hasn't played as much or more than them at any point this season. At Christmas he was still the least played of the options in his positions.
He has also played less than Darmian by over 100 minutes.
He has also played less than Darmian by over 100 minutes.
Premier League Starts before Xmas:
Mata 10
Rashford 8
Lingard 7
Martial 7
Mkhi 3
Not bad for a squad player and minutes reduced because of hauling off
Even Darmian played 7 and mainly played 90 minutes which is the reason for more minutes
Lingard scores spectacular goals. The reason why he's not appreciated? He doesn't close his actions enough, he takes the right decision but for some reasons, he's not good in front of the goals. If he fixes that, he will dramatically improve his game and everyone's perception. Because in term of provoking the offensive game and all, he's not that bad, I actually like him.
As has lingard, who had maybe 3 good games this year.
The difference between him and good players is that decent players make you think something could happen, lingard I'm just happy if he doesn't lose the ball.
I always think something can happen when he's on the ball. He's got great movement and a very good shot on goal, despite being and out and out striker. He's not going to be expected to put out Martial or Rashford numbers this year, even though he has.
It's also a bit of herd behavior. A few posters whip extravagant theses of why he's not good and excepting any push back, those views seem to become the norm often times despite being comeplete unsubstantiated.
We're getting besides the point - you've raised the term 'hater' being ascribed to yourself on a number of occasions, if I remember correctly you have a particular disdain for the word - your opinion on the player doesn't matter to me because I'm not trying to argue with you.
All i've done is described a reason why (in my opinion at least) you may be referred to one - and it's this pull you have towards taking any and every opportunity to criticise and insult him.
You stated your opinion - had a good game, otherwise your opinion remains the same - that's perfectly normal and what most people did.
Yet something made you open the thread again, read at least some of the replies after your comment, pick a particular one out and decide that, that person's opinion was stupid.
Considering from my perspective you've done this on more than one occasion (and I've been on the receiving end on at least one occasion) - this to me implies that you have a particular fascination towards criticising Lingard, by going over and above just stating your opinion - it's like you don't like seeing other people have a positive opinion on him.
Thus it seems perfectly reasonable to call you a hater. You may not like the word but it seems you enjoy engaging in the action the calls for it.
But once again, that's my opinion, based on the evidence I've seen.
also fyi Darmian has kept out Luke Shaw, Blind & Young (I'd argue Rojo too, but hes just as bad if not worse than Darmian at LB, so that's probably a blessing)
You can call me a hater if you want, I don't really care but as I've never met the man and only know how he plays football, in my opinion poorly, it seems a tad daft.
I'm not following your Darmian argument, there I'm hoping for Shaw to get back to his pre-injury and if not then we'll need somebody else, as I said before no-one has excelled in that position this season.
He needs to make Dele Alli his role model, hit the gym and work on his goal scoring especially in the box. In our team his ability from range is a very useful asset along with his not-inconsiderable speed and off-the-ball movement considering how little we score from outside the box. If he weren't a local lad and played for a continental team he might very well have cost as much as Depay whom he has comfortably outperformed despite being less talented.
Why has he got a very good shot? Because he has a hand full of goals? He got those numbers because Martial has under performed and had problems off the pitch and rashford is learning his trade.
Of course he should be performing at a higher level than rashford, this off the ball movement business is daft as well.
You're exaggerating his abilities, he has an average shot and movement
Does he even need defending? he's from the academy so he will always be a caf darlings and the "t0p reds" will always have his back.
Can't tell if you are being sarcastic? If not have a peak in the Lingard performace thread. He is not a popular figure amongst the cafetards.
It's not rocket science to know that he's very unlikely to be the first team winger we want/need. He's a decent enough backup though, and a figure on the bench who could come on and not be useless, which is something these days.
He's been annoyingly inconsistent once again this season. Some games I really like the look of him and then he goes on to have 3/4 games where he looks pretty abysmal. I just wish he could find some consistency.
Conversely, I think you're being oddly negative on Lingard and giving Martial and Rashford a pass. Martial for instance scored 17 goals last year and was branded the 2nd coming of Henry, and yet he is somehow viewed as a victim of Jose's reign. Lingard has no such expectations and yet has been getting consistently selected as a squad player by LvG and Mourinho, two people that know a thing or two about football, which is why not coincidentally he's getting his contract renewed.
Wasn't Colin Henry a defender
No.
Sorry to say, but this post just reeks of bias to me. Lingard has got a good shot on him, as evidenced by his goals, and the fact that he doesn't miss many chances both in and out of the box. I also don't understand how you can so casually discount Lingard's great off the ball movement, when such movement is crucial to any great attacker, and something that's currently holding Martial back from reaching the next level.
Furthermore, your comment about Lingard having better stats due to Martial having an off-season just further reinforces the notion that Lingard isn't a useless player at all, as a poor player wouldn't have been such an able deputy in Martial's absence. Finally regarding Rashford, I feel that you're just judging him on a different scale to Lingard and just looks like blatant favouritism.
Bottom line, I think you're heavily underestimating the usefulness of a player like Lingard in the squad.
Good post. Agreed 100%
He's been getting picked because he is the only winger in the squad, martial has been poor but had off the field issues and is only in his second year in the prem with a new manager and still young, rashford has no expectations because he is still young.
Lingard outperforming 2 underperforming players as you put it is not a sign of greatness, best of a bad bunch maybe?
The point is lingard is playing at a level which isn't that good, martial and rashford can play at a better level than he can....in fact I'm removing rashford from this comparison because it's stupid, he's a young striker not a young winger or 24 year old winger.
Made me chuckle, rashford is a young striker and shouldn't be judged on performances in a different position, let's not forget it's his first full season in the 1st team.
I've seen a ton of goals scored by average players that could win goal of the season it's does not mean they have a good shot, and even if it did what does a good shot even mean ha am I missing something? Does he have a shit load of goals this year? No
Just running around doesn't equal good movement, the same was said about cleverly all those two do is run but often it's not into a space that is any good. I've lost count of how many times he runs down blind alleys asking for the ball only to be ignored.
He's an average footballer who is filling in for our lack of options, that does not make him a good footballer.
Players don't have the luxury of being omitted from these discusssions just because of their age, as they are all expected to contribute relative to their respective positions. The minutes Lingard has played have been very good imo, in terms of his pace, movement, and eye for goal. That's why Jose selects him, not because he's run out of players. If he didn't expect Lingard to do a job then he would've surely bought a replacement last summer or during the winter window, then either sold Lingard or frozen him out like he did Schweinsteiger. The fact that he is proactively seeking him out suggests that he is part of his plans going forward.
It's not football manager matey you can't just simply bring in another player, you need the right player the time to negotiate and money in the pot, we spent a butt load of money this year. You also have to take into account what changing too much at once can do to team chemistry.
To be fair when mhiki is fit he plays ahead of lingard so I'd say Jose did move to improve that area.
The amount of lost points suggest he hasn't, he isn't alone and not pinning it on him only but he is part of the problem which is our attack. Only Zlatan and recently mhiki can say they have performed maybe mata but that is it, now as we have said two of the players you mentioned can do better so you stick with them and hope it happens, lingard you know this is the best he can do which isn't enough
He had the entire summer and winter windows to look around and didn't replace Lingard. That's clearly a sign he rates him and wants to continue developing him further. The new contract just punctuates this.
Bit naive on how easy it is to bring in players, like I say we did sign a replacement for that position, we have bigger issues that need addressing before improving the squadies and Jose rightly focused on those.
Again tho you're hiding behind this "because Jose said so" argument which is just a thin as your previous, saf kept Anderson on the books for years, does that mean Anderson was good? No! Jose has been playing Rojo at left back, does that mean that he is a good left back? No it means that there isn't anyone else to play there.
He's benefitting from the lack of form of others, he's been well in 3 or 4 games but been incredibly wasteful in the others, he isn't alone but where I feel the others will improve (due to age and being played out of position) lingard I feel will not, or atleast not enough to be a united player.
Happy to be proven wrong tho, would be better for everyone if he turned out to be a late bloomer
When other than during the summer and winter windows would you propose the manager buy new players ? Its not as if Jose didn't have complete knowledge about all the players well before he arrived at OT from his Chelsea days and from following United over the years.
I can only assume you're on a wum here or not reading my posts, here are the cliff notes
We did sign a wide player that plays ahead of lingard, there were more important areas that needed fixing.
I got that bit in your last post. If your theory on Lingard being inadequate was correct, then surely Jose would've gotten rid of him and bought a suitable replacement, on top of the buying Mkhitaryan. This idea that we kept him because we didn't have sufficient time to do research on a new player doesn't seem to hold water.
How long did it take to bring in Pogba? All summer? How about the financial resources? How about not expecting Martial to have a poor year?
Again, rome wasn't built in a day
Well yes, the world transfer record player takes a bit longer than replacing a run of the mill squad player. I doubt financial resources are an issue for a club that spends more on transfers than any other.
If he wanted a winger, Jose could've literally brought back Nani within a few hours and loaned/sold/ or frozen out Lingard within the same period.
You're assuming he wanted Nani ?
There are a few players that haven't been replaced it doesn't mean jack all tho, Darmien is another prime example.
Yes we have money but the line needs to be drawn somewhere, anyway I'm out of this now I can see it's going round in circles. Simply being in the squad doesn't mean you're top draw, Darmien Fellaini smalling etc... all highlight my point.
I hope he improves because if that is the standard of united wingers then we best get used to 6th place
Love nothing more than to have him improve and prove me wrong so we can have another home grown talent on the wing who seems to genuinely support the club. Atleast we can both agree on that
You're assuming he wanted Nani ?
There are a few players that haven't been replaced it doesn't mean jack all tho, Darmien is another prime example.
Yes we have money but the line needs to be drawn somewhere, anyway I'm out of this now I can see it's going round in circles. Simply being in the squad doesn't mean you're top draw, Darmien Fellaini smalling etc... all highlight my point.
I hope he improves because if that is the standard of united wingers then we best get used to 6th place
Love nothing more than to have him improve and prove me wrong so we can have another home grown talent on the wing who seems to genuinely support the club. Atleast we can both agree on that
Nani was just an example. Needless to say Mourinho knows his players, he knows the players at other clubs and just by virtue of his own name and United's brand, can easily reach out to any club, agent, or player within minutes and get a response as to availability.
No worries buddy I think it's best we leave it here, night dude