If'd we'd converted just 4 of the draws in home games we dominated into wins (say Burnley, Stoke, Boro and WBA) then we'd be 3 points behind Chelsea. So we're not exactly talking a massive gulf in performances. With a slightly beefed up strike force that would have been very possible.
Is Mou still 'The Special One' for you all?
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If'd we'd converted just 4 of the draws in home games we dominated into wins (say Burnley, Stoke, Boro and WBA) then we'd be 3 points behind Chelsea. So we're not exactly talking a massive gulf in performances. With a slightly beefed up strike force that would have been very possible.
We all knew Mourinho has his flaws. There was always going to be baggage that comes with his divisive personality. Despite these issues, he's been a winner and his system, way of working and management of players has proven successful in terms of trophy hauls. We can argue all we want, and sure there are plenty of concerns and valid points with the way he manages his players. However, he has a proven pedigree to be a winner with his management style. We'll just have trust him and hope like in the past he again proves successful.
You are comparing our current squad with SAF's best teams. In his final season, he had:
Van Persie, Hernandez, Rooney, Welbeck, Kagawa, Young (who played more than Nani)
Again, before the season started, the general opinion around here was that top 4 was a minimum, and that with the new signings, we should have been at least challenging for the title. Now you are moving the goalposts because of hindsight, and you are comparing our present squad with SAF's best. The thing is, he won a lot more than just 3 titles.
Pretty much what many said about LvG.
I listed groups of players from SAFs great teams: 1994, 1999 and 2008. Think of those players during those periods and compare that to what we have now.
Its an illustrative example on how Mourinho does not have the quality required to win the league right now. Some of our players may improve, but that affects the future only; right now, they are a handicap. Mourinho is being expected by some to do 'much much better' despite not having the required players.
I have done this as a rebuttal to posts which claim Mourinho should be challenging for the league with the squad he has. The quality of our squad is not at the traditional level required to win league titles, so Mourinho does not yet have a realistic chance. The fact that we have invested so much funds in past 4 years does not change that fact.
That's exactly my line of thinking.
Are we seriously going to compare LvG with Mourinho? It's absurd if people make these comparisons.
2013: Van Persie, Hernandez, Rooney, Welbeck, Kagawa, Young, Nani in 2013
Vs
2017: Martial, Rashford, Mata, Ibrahimović, Mkhitaryan, Rooney Lingard
Why don't you tell me which set of players has better talent, able to perform to that talent, on a weekly basis?
Last seasons we finished 5th, this season it looks like we'll finish 5th as well. All this 'if only we beat Burnley/Stoke/Accrington Stanley' at home also applies to any manager. You had no problems comparing LvG to Moyes when many (including me) felt it was absurd to compare.
You just need to understand that you were entrenched in your position of opposing LvG. People have a similar attitude towards Mourinho now.
Im struggling, like really really struggling why some are finding this so difficult to grasp.
I'm hoping its trolling because of utter boredom. Otherwise, well I don't really want to say
If you are comparing them on reputation and how good they are (on paper) that's one argument. If you are comparing them based on performance then it's just a complete tautology and utter nonsense. You should make your mind up on that.
Like these for example. Stupidly dominant unlike last season where we needed the De Gea show every game
Performance please.
From what I see, the 2013 group won the title by a country mile. The 2017 group have been 6th best all season and are flirting with 5th right now.
Hmm. Makes sense. Silly though.
Because as any 'if my aunt had bollocks' argument it isn't very persuasive. You might as well say if we drew 4 of the games that we've won (which could have happened) we'd now be 23 points behind Chelsea.Im struggling, like really really struggling why some are finding this so difficult to grasp.
I'm hoping its trolling because of utter boredom. Otherwise, well I don't really want to say
Then it's a complete tautology and meaningless for that reason.
It's not just about results. The football on offer last season was some of the worst seen at Old Trafford in my 40 years of going to matches. The players LvG purchased and sold has cost the club many millions. Comparing LvG to Moyes is also daft. Personally, I can't remember ever comparing Moyes with LvG.
Whatever.
Must be so torturous for you to support our club. Why do you do it to yourself?
Anyways, have fun.
See thats why your second question confused me. From your original post, by putting up SAFs great teams you made it seem like our current team is so much inferior. Which in fact it probably was, given that one of them had a ballon d'or Ronaldo and a prime Rooney. I was just pointing out that SAF still had much success with lesser teams, he oversaw three major transitions after all. The man is a master motivator, and no doubt he would have gotten better out of the likes of Rashford for me.
The flaw in your argument is we have always been the better team in all of those games we drew. I can't remember games we have won in which we were fortunate.
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I have no allegiance to a manager. I learned the hard way after Moyes. It was not funny or engaging to see posters ripping each other out because they don't agree with their viewpoint because of a manager. It was so bad that people were willing the club to lose a match for the 'greater good'. It only heightened after LvG. For a guy who stood steadfast with Moyes, I was more than surprised that you were laying into LvG because of 'style of play' and many in this forum hold you in high regard as a poster.
I can only say that everybody spends money. Mourinho's signings cost a lot of money, like LvG. I can only say that while subjectively it looks like we are playing better football, we don't have points or goals to show for it. Another reason it's probably best not to take the 'it's just the finishing guys, we'll be ok as long as we trust Mourinho' at face value. It would be stupid to fire Mourinho because he didn't get us at least 4th and it would be equally naive/idiotic to say it's down to the previous managers. Essentially, posts like this one below
As expected things are not going perfectly - my main complaint is the throwing of players under/out of the bus.
His last departure from Chelsea was down to discontent among players and staff and i hope we are not heading in the same direction.
He needs lessons from LvG on how to get the best out of younger players, which he certainly knows how to do with the more mature ones.
I was against his coming to OT - I've been pleasantly surprised in some ways and found him unfortunately true to form in others.
50:50 for me right now.
His last departure from Chelsea was down to discontent among players and staff and i hope we are not heading in the same direction.
He needs lessons from LvG on how to get the best out of younger players, which he certainly knows how to do with the more mature ones.
I was against his coming to OT - I've been pleasantly surprised in some ways and found him unfortunately true to form in others.
50:50 for me right now.
Not the special one, but he is the right man for the job, definitely.
What a fatuous remark. No, it isn't torturous for me to support our club. It's reading your posts that's a real struggle though (but not quite torture).
Just few. Fergie did win with the Fledglings! And yeah, I think our strikers are more than capable and it's Mou's tactics that is holding us back.
Like these for example. Stupidly dominant unlike last season where we needed the De Gea show every game
I don't understand xG but yeah, those four will do. Or Arsenal, Bournemouth and West Brom. Feck it, there's not many draws in that run we didn't completely dominate. Maybe Liverpool, Boro and Everton?
Statistics, fan forums, many pundits, ex-players were in agreement with my line of thinking with LvG. I was just much quicker to call him out.I have no allegiance to a manager. I learned the hard way after Moyes. It was not funny or engaging to see posters ripping each other out because they don't agree with their viewpoint because of a manager. It was so bad that people were willing the club to lose a match for the 'greater good'. It only heightened after LvG. For a guy who stood steadfast with Moyes, I was more than surprised that you were laying into LvG because of 'style of play' and many in this forum hold you in high regard as a poster.
I can only say that everybody spends money. Mourinho's signings cost a lot of money, like LvG. I can only say that while subjectively it looks like we are playing better football, we don't have points or goals to show for it. Another reason it's probably best not to take the 'it's just the finishing guys, we'll be ok as long as we trust Mourinho' at face value. It would be stupid to fire Mourinho because he didn't get us at least 4th and it would be equally naive/idiotic to say it's down to the previous managers. Essentially, posts like this one below
Got it.
But even SAF's lesser teams, like 2013, had better attacking resources than Mourinho has has so far this season. You can argue he could have coached more out of them, but I don't this thats true.
Neither did I, but @Rawls took the time to explain it to me. Accurate statistical analysis which provides quantitive evidence to what we see.
There are some fickle fans in here. They demand immediate success, but at the same time, demand that Jose respect the club's tradition of bringing through youth players.
We have 3 young players in our attack - Rashford, Martial, and Lingard, (plus Pogba also is relatively young) and they are just not ready to carry the team through pressure situations.
We have 3 young players in our attack - Rashford, Martial, and Lingard, (plus Pogba also is relatively young) and they are just not ready to carry the team through pressure situations.
This is fair enough to a point. But every club has their own little sob stories about what might have been if certain moments had developed differently.
Agree with that. If Chelsea had started the season in the form they're in now etc etc.
To be fair to some, they may be struggling because it didn't happen. It is mostly Ifs and buts.Im struggling, like really really struggling why some are finding this so difficult to grasp.
I'm hoping its trolling because of utter boredom. Otherwise, well I don't really want to say
It is not to say at least hopefully we can build on it and get better next season.
Until then, it is all ifs and buts and people can rightly go on with the actual facts and results.
IF we won against Westham last season, LVG could still be the manager.
At the same time filing every instance where 'fortune' did favor them as no more than their due.
Definitely. That's not really my point, though. I'm not saying we deserve to be any higher up the league right now. We deserve to be where we are, no ifs buts or maybes. Luck evens itself out, every club hits the woodwork, referees feck over everyone equally etc etc etc
I was actually arguing that had our squad been marginally stronger (e.g. Rooney upgrade) there's a very good chance we'd still be in the title race. Completely hypothetical but does show we're not miles off the pace, despite having options up front that aren't a patch on what we normally had in the Fergie era.
It's grounds for hope at least.
Exactly! After the grim comedy of the last three years I'll take hope wherever I can find it!
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